[SpectreX]

Uh......There are THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE in the United States alone and the vast majority of them could be potential XBMC users (not saying they are). The third world population on this planet is staggering (well over 3 billion, Almost half the planet). The rest of the world is much less likely to even HAVE a computer let alone have XBMC. I think electricity would be a bigger concern. Your reasoning is suspect.

I have NEVER bought a dvd or dvd player and had to turn OFF subtitles.

With that being said, I could care less if they are on by default or not.

He was talking about Western Europe and other evolved states (some even more evolved than the USA) not Africa and Irak (you`re third world example)

[darkscout]

Counter point: If you don't want subtitles on, then why are they downloaded?

The only time I've ever seen XBMC automatically turn on sub titles is when there is a proper subtitle in the folder (I ask Couch Potato to do this).


Personally. Native American English speaker, I don't watch movies without subtitles with friends. Sometimes a few people want to discuss what just happened. Sometimes other conversations creep up. It lets the movie continue on without making everyone leave the room or stop talking even in a hushed voice.

[LastMile]

Ultimately, it'd be great if all files had proper language flags on the audio as well as the subtitles (which you can set in matroska, not sure about anything else).

That way you could set your native language in XBMC and then have a setting that automatically enabled the appropriate subtitles for anything that had foreign audio.

E.g. No subs for English audio (other than forced), but automatically select English subs for Japanese audio, etc.

Hmm, but then what to do with dual audio files?

[steelman1991]

LOL this should be pinned - a lesson in how to put foot in mouth, before engaging brain.

[JohnnyD2]

Hi all,

First up, I've been busy. I have a life, and I'm not able to spend my days hanging out on a forum waiting to reply to my own topic. I'm not that narcissistic.

Anyway, let's get started.

FishOil is the only one who gets it. As he said there is not one mainstream piece of video-playing software or hardware in UK or USA or Australia which has subtitles on by default. Not one. Unless it's targeted at the deaf\elderly\etc. Is this XBMC's target audience? It's a huge mistake even considering them - they will buy specialist equipment over software like this.

Topfs2 - Thanks for taking the time to reply. Thank you also for a sane, reasoned response. However in my opinion it's mistaken. And also in the opinion of every DVD\PVR manufacturer out there in the english speaking world.

But, you're the Devs. You're the guys who put the hours in. It's your call. I would highly recommend you change your mind.

Or more realistically, change how it's dealt with (which is relatively clumsy for such an important visual distraction)

e.g. if the wiki Videos page also mentioned "by default the subtitles are toggled by 'T' and cycled by 'L'" then, frankly, I wouldn't be writing this post.
Or put in an option during install (not tucked away either, I think this is so polarising it would deserve a 'Next' button all it's own)
Maybe it's a skin problem - I know settings exposed to the user can be different from skin to skin. Can you make aspects of it mandatory? That would go some way to ensuring you have certain settings you know are always exposed to the user - subtitle toggling should definitely be one of them.
Or maybe have a standard XBMC in-video OSD so you know there will be a consistent user experience when actually playing a movie, and therefore know the wiki help will be 100% accurate.

In the end I did the following, which I can't see anyone mainstream being able to do:
- I had to edit a file on disk in order to turn future subtitles off (guisettings)
- I had to download SQLite browser and find\edit the entries which controlled the videos subtitles flag (thankfully I know enough basic SQL to bulk update this field)

As for the wiki references - there wasn't anywhere - at all - in the OSD of Aeon Nox of how to toggle subtitles, let alone go through the 'set as default' option the wiki talks about. Simply wasn't there - if this is so fundamental, how can a skin designer leave it out?

Do you have stats on where XBMC's biggest user base is? That's who you should cater for. (Actually if you do, and you could share that, I'd be genuinely interested).

Those are the only posts I'm going to mention.

The rest of you, I'm not even going to bother responding to. Talk about not reading my post before flaming me. That's real mature guys.

I will say this: I did RTFM before I posted. Several times. It was zero help. I also searched the forums. Also zero help. The answers referenced the OSD. That wasn't working for me. You're not given any keyboard shortcut help to get into the OSD -> Subtitles section. That's what prompted the post.

So let me be clear - when a video is already imported and already playing:
1. The wiki's as useful as a chocolate teapot at helping with turning subtitles off.
2. The forums are too.
3. So is the wiki for the OSD.

ALL I needed was 'T' toggles subtitles, but it's not to be found in any of those documents you all so helpfully referenced. Nor is it anywhere on the forums.

Where IS that information? The keyboard map wiki entry here. Unintuitively.

In closing I'm trying to make everyone aware that there is a real problem with embedded subs for non-techy english speakers. Which is potentially a huge portion of the target audience.

Devs - please don't be under any illusions. Mainstream non-techys will simply walk away from XBMC if it takes more than 5 minutes to fix any one issue like this. They won't find the wiki. They won't post about their problems. The forum users won't have a chance to flame them with 'RTFM'. They'll simply not use it again. And you'll have lost them for good. You'll just never know it.

P.S. To the .... dolt... who suggested I should've just asked in the forum - are you joking? I was trying to watch a movie with my wife at the time - "hold on love, I'll just post on the forum and see if anyone will get back to me. Should only be 5 minutes. Won't kill the mood at all......"

[>>X<<]

As for the wiki references - there wasn't anywhere - at all - in the OSD of Aeon Nox of how to toggle subtitles, let alone go through the 'set as default' option the wiki talks about. Simply wasn't there - if this is so fundamental, how can a skin designer leave it out?

AeonNox in the OSD the little speaker symbol that's the same across nearly all skins which brings up the audio options

[JohnnyD2]

Almost forgot - and this is the most important (topfs2 if you're reading...)

For all the 'RTFM' and 'try searching' comments (unhelpful as they are) they referenced wiki articles which are supposed to be helpful.

This is the crux: they're not.

And it's a frequent problem with geek-driven and\or open source projects.

They refer to wiki articles tell you WHAT you need to do, but they don't tell you HOW to do it. Why? Because geeks assume knowledge. I should know, I am one, and I do.

So because I realise that, it makes it easier to see when others don't. And the XBMC wiki doesn't tell you what buttons to press to get where it's telling you to go.

It just describes what you have to do - 'go into the OSD' or 'the buttons on the OSD are as follows'.. but wait, how do i get to the OSD? What do I press?

That was my biggest issue - in the wiki article that told me how to do what I wanted to do, it didn't actually tell me how to do it!

Not one of the forum posters on any subtitles post has said, for example:

...it's in the OSD (M-key by default on PC).

Explicit step-by-step, talking to a moron instructions please. If it varies by Skin, say that, and make it a warning.

Please?

[>>X<<]

If you had asked how do I get the OSD someone would have told you in about two seconds

Or they would have just pointed you to the obvious place

http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Global_Keyboard

[JohnnyD2]

It's the most useful thing I've seen on this topic so far (and yes, now you've pointed that out, it is indeed exactly what I was looking for - thank you).

However it skips straight over how to get to it, and the screenshot is unrelated. In fact, while you've taken the trouble to screenshot Nox specifically, you've done exactly what the wiki does and actually missed the crucial step of where the Speaker symbol is.

If the wiki said '
1. press M (on PC) to bring up the OSD
2. look for the speaker symbol <screenshot, ringed>
3. then go to Enable subtitles <screenshot>'

then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Screenshot of step 2 is required for the wiki (it's easy when you know how, when you don't, it isn't).

Actually, thinking about it, I don't think I saw a speaker symbol on sunday... I'll check tomorrow.

[natethomas]

I've noticed that most outraged and furious posts about being unable to find something that should be relatively simple involve a derivative of the phrase, "I'm using Aeon."

The unfortunate fact of using non-standard remotes and being pretty open with skinning is that invariably EVERYTHING will be hard to find, given the right skin. We could dumb it down, like Boxee does, and limit everyone to Confluence, but then we wouldn't be the community we are. Alternatively, we could try forcing certain things, which we do to a limited extent, but then we'd be hindering the creative process of our skilled skinners.

The simple fact of the matter is that OSS that gets modified from the default cannot be guaranteed by the Team. That's why almost all instructions in the wiki get published with pictures of Confluence (if they are published with pictures). It is the skin the Team can, for the most part, guarantee, and it is designed to be as easy to navigate and use as possible, while maintaining a certain level of prettiness.

Furthermore, most users don't use keyboards when navigating XBMC. It's possible a plurality does, but XBMC was designed with remote controls in mind, and that remains true today. As such, explaining key presses in the wiki would only help a fairly limited number of individuals. Odds are, most of the people on this board didn't mention key presses because they don't use keys.

Long story short, an openness to creative skinning combined with a lack of hardware standardization can result in the occasional headache, like that described above. There are certainly efforts being taken to at least present a standardized hardware combo (not officially by the team, but by organizations), but I think it'd be a sad thing if the software itself ever lost its ability to adapt in a million different ways to a million different situations and ideas.

[natethomas]

Though, to be fair, the OSD presented in the wiki right now is from PM3, which was the standard skin prior to Confluence. That should probably be updated.

[JohnnyD2]

If you had asked how do I get the OSD someone would have told you in about two seconds

Or they would have just pointed you to the obvious place

http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Global_Keyboard

I knew how to bring up the OSD.

My point is that fundamental information for the the Wiki article about the OSD is a) how to call up the OSD (assuming defaults).

[JohnnyD2]

I've noticed that most outraged and furious posts about being unable to find something that should be relatively simple involve a derivative of the phrase, "I'm using Aeon."

Heh. Yeah I've heard that before. Fair enough, but for me nothing comes close to it aestetically. Useability-wise though.. oye.

That's why almost all instructions in the wiki get published with pictures of Confluence (if they are published with pictures). It is the skin the Team can, for the most part, guarantee, and it is designed to be as easy to navigate and use as possible, while maintaining a certain level of prettiness.

Absolutely fair enough. But I don't see the 'critical step' screenshots even with that.

Furthermore, most users don't use keyboards when navigating XBMC. ...Odds are, most of the people on this board didn't mention key presses because they don't use keys.

I don't either, I use android remote but it's a fallback.

An all-else-fails, guaranteed-to-work method.

I couldn't find a subtitles button on the remote (something I might mention, but I'm not sure where it'd go on the screen), and so I plugged my keyboard in (I have 2 front USBs and a hard drive + mouse plugged in usually).

but I think it'd be a sad thing if the software itself ever lost its ability to adapt in a million different ways to a million different situations and ideas.

Could not agree more. It's what makes XBMC head and shoulders above the rest. Problem is there are some things that should be front and center and immutable - subtitles are one. Zoom is another. Play\Pause etc another.

Very little else, but there are *some*.

Also, since the PC user base is so large, keyboard shortcuts are a baseline reference.

Hell, maybe even have a 'symbol' for making actions happen with an associated 'lookup' wiki article telling you what it maps to if you're on a) swedish keyboard b) english c) xbox controller etc.

[isamu.dragon]

Hi all,

First up, I've been busy. I have a life, and I'm not able to spend my days hanging out on a forum waiting to reply to my own topic. I'm not that narcissistic.

uhhhh.......5 mins on the Wiki (Online Manual) would find your answer.
uhhhh.......5 mins searching forum for help......
Seems to me that you just troll, since that is the maximum amount of time a NOOB would need to find the answers to the query to you requested.

[bluenote]

Sounds like someone should be contributing to the wiki instead of bitching and complaining.