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XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft
#76
Robotica Wrote:Like I said before, discussing the forum rules without knowing the reason the Foundation exists (mission, values, etc.) sounds a little strange to me.

The Team has made forum rules before the very existence of a Foundation, so why is this strange?

On Wikipedia, their Foundation is rarely involved in direct "rule" making (except for major policies, but never this kind of day-to-day thing). Rules about formatting pages, rules about behavior between users, rules about how long to ban someone for doing something bad, were all made by the users of the site who have pretty much no connection to the WikiMedia Foundation.

So you see, rules about forums don't suddenly become formal decrees simply because a Foundation has been formed in a group.

As for why those documents and statements are not all nicely laid out and easily accessible.. probably the same reason why some features didn't make it into Eden: there's only so many hours of the day, and no one is getting paid to do this. I'm sure we'll eventually all have nice laminated copies of some formal statements for people who are wondering about the inner workings of XBMC. All in good time.
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#77
I know this isn't what you have planned, but did you think of banning all but officially released addons from xbmc.org? Just banning certain addons, helps keep you out of trouble legally, but it doesn't help the project in the long run. It will segment addon development, which can't be good. Getting everybody to move to a new forum, will keep everything together.

Also the addon support area, has got very unwieldy lately it has 4 pages of new posts for the past 24 hours. A new clean forum like xbmchub would make it so much better for addons, instead of just a single thread to discuss an addon, there would be subsections. So important posts don’t get lost, long way down the list.

Think about it, it may be a good idea. I’m too hungover to know for sure.
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#78
Not really, roger. If this xbmchub thing really takes off, we might have a chat about it, but for now the list of addons that don't fit within our rules is really very limited.
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#79
This really is a tricky situation. I do not envy XBMC having to make these calls, or deal with the backlash of making them. I understand why they must do what they must do. As I have said before, my goal for XBMC HUB is to give a home to the developers who will be removed.

In the long run, I plan on getting all info on all addons, skins, scripts, etc (that I can) hosted on our site with the release info and then simply give Links to XBMC for support and dev communication.

For those who are choosing to come to XBMC HUB we will offer them as complete an experience as possible with the ability to make multiple threads for individualized support and discussions.

I agree that it would help the community to have ONE HOME for all extrs stored and organized in a clean concise way.

Again, XBMC HUB is hoping to be a help that fills a gap, not replace XBMC's forum, as they are likely the best at what they do!
will always be grateful for XBMC and XBMC.ORG
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#80
Ned Scott Wrote:My apologies for not finding better examples, but you are living in a dream world if you think that downloading pirated videos from megaupload is legal, or that someone can't be sued for it.

Even so.. I, nor any member of Team-XBMC, don't give a damn if individuals are targeted or not for lawsuits. It's still illegal.

XBMC, however, could be seen as helping in distribution. And even then, even if we knew by some magic ball that we would never be sued, it's still illegal. The Team doesn't like the association between XBMC and blatant piracy.

I think it's important that we're having this discussion. But I think it's also important not to jump to any decisions.

A LOT of online communities could be seen as facilitating "distribution" in some regard. Does that mean all of them are illegal?

Has legal advice been sought to clarify the Foundation's liability and ways to mitigate?
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#81
rbrohman Wrote:I think it's important that we're having this discussion. But I think it's also important not to jump to any decisions.

A LOT of online communities could be seen as facilitating "distribution" in some regard. Does that mean all of them are illegal?

Has legal advice been sought to clarify the Foundation's liability and ways to mitigate?

To be completely honest (and again, I'm no lawyer) I really doubt xbmc.org/Foundation/Team-XBMC would ever be sued for these threads, or if we were I think we would be found innocent. However, even without a formal lawsuit, content owners can make things difficult for us if they feel it is in their interests (even without things like SOPA). Or if someone does sue, but we win, that's still something that is a very difficult process that takes time and money.

Legal threats are just one reason for this policy, though. There are philosophical reasons as well. A lot of Team-XBMC members aren't comfortable with the association of piracy and XBMC, and want to make it clear that there is no official connection.

Another reason is that we keep getting hammered with help threads that have nothing to do with XBMC, but with certain websites (like IceFilms) having issues on their side.
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#82
I won't voice my opinion for or against piracy. But I will say that in my opinion:

I think that at some point, and probably about now, a line must be drawn, and no further comments made by anyone with any position within XBMC, be it dev, foundation, or otherwise, with any authority concerning this issue.

I would also consider that any thread that directs someone with a direct link to a site that knowingly condones anything strictly prohibited by the rules should not be permitted like wise.

The rule is made, and that is that. End of discussion. Close this thread.
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#83
Although a significant number of XBMC users including myself are self-proclaimed Media Pirates, I personally believe that the discussion of piracy within this community is moot... It's kinda like convicts in the penitentiary discussing openly the schemes they may use to escape. In other words, why would you discuss the specifics of what you do in a community that caters to you knowing that the "cops" are right outside the cell-block from you. XBMC was made for people like you and me... the introduction of the HTPC, media streamers..etc were crafted with us in mind. XBMC just facilitates the playing of this media. If XBMC and these other media device developers really cared passionately about the Anti-Piracy initiative, then they would make it harder for us to play pirated content kinda like PowerDVD does. But they don't; in fact, it seems they do they exact opposite. The way you choose to snatch your media to play within XBMC is your business and should be left out of the conversation and this community period!
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#84
CpTHOOK Wrote:Although a significant number of XBMC users including myself are self-proclaimed Media Pirates, I personally believe that the discussion of piracy within this community is moot... It's kinda like convicts in the penitentiary discussing openly the schemes they may use to escape. In other words, why would you discuss the specifics of what you do in a community that caters to you knowing that the "cops" are right outside the cell-block from you. XBMC was made for people like you and me... the introduction of the HTPC, media streamers..etc were crafted with us in mind. XBMC just facilitates the playing of this media. If XBMC and these other media device developers really cared passionately about the Anti-Piracy initiative, then they would make it harder for us to play pirated content kinda like PowerDVD does. But they don't; in fact, it seems they do they exact opposite. The way you choose to snatch your media to play within XBMC is your business and should be left out of the conversation and this community period!


I could be right, hell on the other hand I could be completly off my rocker...but to me this at least in my mind looks and feels like the whole napster fiasco with a bit more teeth. I do agree with the last few lines of the previous post, " The way you choose to snatch your media to play within XBMC is your business and should be left out of the conversation and this community period!" On the other hand I do believe that a line needs to be drawn in the perverbial sand on what can and cannot be discussed here and this policy should be as strictly inforced as possible. In closing in the grand scheme of things there are much more important things that the fed could be fighting, but it would appear this this would be the one that has been tapped for the time being.
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#85
Ned Scott Wrote:The Team has made forum rules before the very existence of a Foundation, so why is this strange?

On Wikipedia, their Foundation is rarely involved in direct "rule" making (except for major policies, but never this kind of day-to-day thing). Rules about formatting pages, rules about behavior between users, rules about how long to ban someone for doing something bad, were all made by the users of the site who have pretty much no connection to the WikiMedia Foundation.

So you see, rules about forums don't suddenly become formal decrees simply because a Foundation has been formed in a group.

As for why those documents and statements are not all nicely laid out and easily accessible.. probably the same reason why some features didn't make it into Eden: there's only so many hours of the day, and no one is getting paid to do this. I'm sure we'll eventually all have nice laminated copies of some formal statements for people who are wondering about the inner workings of XBMC. All in good time.

It is strange since a (charity) Foundations implies shared vision and needs. Not knowing those, and start drawing policies just doesn't make any sense. Wikimedia can do so since their Foundation is nicely operating in the open. From there, they delegated some policies to their community.

The "there is no time"-argument is being told for already 2+ years....
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#86
I am not surprised to see this come about and in some ways it is good to see. As is with any application that can be added to and changed there is the scope for it to be used for non legal viewing of material. As responsible developers of the core application they need to protect themselves. So setting out some sensible ground rules is good to see.

What would also be worth doing is having a standard legal disclaimer that all add-ons have to accept before they are added to the official repository. Something along the lines of, use of this add-on within XBMC is to be used for the accessing and viewing off material in line with any copyright that is in control of that material. As has been mentioned some add-ons that pull down torrents can be used for legal and illegal material. To expect the XBMC Team to manage the situation of what could potentially be used to obtain any illegal content is almost impossible.

As for open discussion of pirate media and methods to get them within the forum well that is just stupid. There are very few forums that allow these discussions and those that do are monitored by those looking to catch and prosecute those people. So a stance of not allowing those subjects to be discussed is also sensible. If this SOPA thing comes in then from what I have read about it, it will be open season on any site or application that allows or encourages the distribution of copyrighted material. Well it will be if they are in the USA anyhow.

I guess the main thing is use common sense, unfortunately thou not everyone who posts in a forum has common sense. Hence the need for rules and guidelines of what is and is not acceptable.
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#87
Question is this for all things in the forum or just media sharing/streaming related

"1. All discussions dealing directly with or linking to add-ons, websites, or services that violate US copyright laws (pirated content) will be closed when a forum moderator has been made aware of them."

I am pretty retarded when it comes to this stuff so bare with me but we have some skins here that breach the US copyright laws (well i think they do because we sure don't hold the rights to them) regarding fonts. Are we to take down the links to them?
As far as i know besides Nox we would have to drop Aeon or are we not going that deep and just focusing on pirated content/media links I also wonder about the backdrops we provide most skinners just get wallpapers off random sites or does none of this apply.
Sorry if this is just completely off topic
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#88
Robotica Wrote:It is strange since a (charity) Foundations implies shared vision and needs. Not knowing those, and start drawing policies just doesn't make any sense. Wikimedia can do so since their Foundation is nicely operating in the open. From there, they delegated some policies to their community.

The "there is no time"-argument is being told for already 2+ years....

Since XBMC is a volunteer project and you seem to feel that having a foundation mission statement/etc is so important, why not volunteer to assist in coming up with one?
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#89
ZombieRobot Wrote:I am pretty retarded when it comes to this stuff so bare with me but we have some skins here that breach the US copyright laws (well i think they do because we sure don't hold the rights to them) regarding fonts. Are we to take down the links to them?
As far as i know besides Nox we would have to drop Aeon or are we not going that deep and just focusing on pirated content/media links
i'm not completely up to par with todays Aeon clones, but the original one was distributed without a font file, exactly for this reason.
ZombieRobot Wrote:I also wonder about the backdrops we provide most skinners just get wallpapers off random sites
most skinners? i beg to differ.
as far as i know most skinners are aware of the 'rules' and play by them.
this is certainly true for every skin we host in our addon repo.
ZombieRobot Wrote:Sorry if this is just completely off topic
nope, not at all.
imo, if you develop a skin you must make sure all files included are legal to distribute.
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#90
ronie Wrote:imo, if you develop a skin you must make sure all files included are legal to distribute.

Thanks ronie i too think all skins should be done the right way making sure all files are legal and do remember the day when aeon had different downloads for fonts this is why for showmix i am working through replacing fonts with commercially free ones thanks for the input
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XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft2