[natethomas]

It's not the license fault; forking and going commercial is prohibited by the GPL v2.

This is almost entirely false. The GPL is perfectly fine with people forking and going commercial. The only thing you can't do is fork and then close source anything you release.

[Ned Scott]

It's not illegal or ethically wrong. The GPL specifically allows for this kind of use. The fact that they're charging money is not an issue.

However, the fact that they're charging money for the "privilege" of being a beta tester is downright hilarious.

[lockdown571]

It's not illegal or ethically wrong. The GPL specifically allows for this kind of use. The fact that they're charging money is not an issue.

However, the fact that they're charging money for the "privilege" of being a beta tester is downright hilarious.

I'm curious, why do people find the PlexPass subscriptions so strange or hilarious? It just seems like a way to get financial support from the most diehard and avid users. There's no smoke and mirrors here. The developers make it quite clear that these new features are in beta and have bugs. No one's being tricked or swindled here. Moreover, IIRC betas previously weren't available to the public at all, so it's not like anything was taken away from Plex users.

And if it's so ridiculous, then why do so many people purchase PlexPass subscriptions? If the model wasn't achieving the desired effect for the developers, then they would simply suspend the model all together. It's just simple economics.

I get it. Open source is really awesome and everyone wins, but Plex and XBMC have completely different goals now. Plex is a business. The Plex program containing the XBMC code will be freely available to the public upon its completion, and as I understand it the source code will be freely available. Again I'm no expert, but people like yourself that seem to know what they're talking about claim the GPL isn't being violated here. Any other issues between the developers should be settled in a mature fashion.

Honestly, I'm just someone who really loves both XBMC and Plex. I hate to see bad blood between the two, as there are many developers on both sides working their butts off to make fantastic products. Hopefully everyone can win in the end!

[Ned Scott]

I'm curious, why do people find the PlexPass subscriptions so strange or hilarious? It just seems like a way to get financial support from the most diehard and avid users. There's no smoke and mirrors here. The developers make it quite clear that these new features are in beta and have bugs. No one's being tricked or swindled here. Moreover, IIRC betas previously weren't available to the public at all, so it's not like anything was taken away from Plex users.

You are correct. There is no deception here, they're very open about everything, and everyone knows what they're getting into if they choose to get a PlexPass.

And if it's so ridiculous, then why do so many people purchase PlexPass subscriptions? If the model wasn't achieving the desired effect for the developers, then they would simply suspend the model all together. It's just simple economics.

That's really not a strong argument for anything, for or against. Some very awful movies have made huge profits, some very bad products have been sold in the millions, and every day someone supports a kickstarter about a bad Startrek/ALF crossover fanfilm. Just saying.

I get it. Open source is really awesome and everyone wins, but Plex and XBMC have completely different goals now. Plex is a business. The Plex program containing the XBMC code will be freely available to the public upon its completion, and as I understand it the source code will be freely available. Again I'm no expert, but people like yourself that seem to know what they're talking about claim the GPL isn't being violated here. Any other issues between the developers should be settled in a mature fashion.

Honestly, I'm just someone who really loves both XBMC and Plex. I hate to see bad blood between the two, as there are many developers on both sides working their butts off to make fantastic products. Hopefully everyone can win in the end!

Part of the issue isn't that someone did this, but rather that Plex did this. There's a reason there's bad blood between the two projects. To put it simply, Elan and at least some other Plex developers appear to have a bad attitude, or at least a disrespectful attitude, towards open source software and the open source movement. So yes, what they're doing is legal and fine, but we do not believe they are helping to nurture and support the elements that allow them to deliver their product, and in some cases might even be hurting those elements to some degree.

It's not because they're charging money, or because of PlexPass, or because Plex started as an XBMC fork due to a dispute when Elan was on Team XBMC. Those issues come up in all of this, but they're symptoms and not the cause. They are things that can be seen in other companies, but not be an issue or offend us at all. While occasionally XBMC developers have been individually contracted and paid to help a company out, most often when we work with such commercial entities, it's between volunteer developers and the companies, and we work along side them happily. They're people who do reap the rewards of using XBMC and its code for free, but they also give back and have a vested interest in making sure projects like ours stay alive and healthy.

That's part of the issue of why people find it funny or maybe are offended.

For me, a large part of finding this hilarious is that it doesn't seem like people are getting any Plex specific features yet for their money. Getting early access to cool new features is one thing, but getting early access to Plex playing catch-up with code that isn't even stable (and is further unstable) by any Plex changes, is another.

Even without all of this, even if Plex was the most awesome friendly group in the world and even if we loved them dearly, I would still find it hilarious to basically pay to be a beta tester. I get it that the people buying PlexPass see this as their money well spent, either for supporting the company/group, or for getting early access to features, or whatever, but I still find it funny. It doesn't seem like a it would be a significant increase in revenue for Plex, and beta testing is generally something you want a lot of people testing when it comes to really broad platforms such as Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux. I also find it funny how it's presented as such a reward to those who buy PlexPass.

Yet another part in this is simply personal preference and has nothing to do with the GPL or bad blood or any of that. While Plex isn't a bad media center, I do see it as a nerfed XBMC. I do admit that their server set up is done very well and beats the pants off of anything XBMC currently does, as far as syncing libraries and such goes. Other than that, it's a limited feature set of XBMC that doesn't quite work as well in most areas. There's even a question of quality when it comes to the code behind the Plex-specific features, but that I can't really comment on myself, not being a developer. Paying to use beta and nerfed XBMC, when we're so close to releasing the real deal, is funny to me from my personal perspective.

[kreeturez]

While Plex isn't a bad media center, I do see it as a nerfed XBMC. I do admit that their server set up is done very well and beats the pants off of anything XBMC currently does, as far as syncing libraries and such goes. Other than that, it's a limited feature set of XBMC that doesn't quite work as well in most areas. There's even a question of quality when it comes to the code behind the Plex-specific features, but that I can't really comment on myself, not being a developer. Paying to use beta and nerfed XBMC, when we're so close to releasing the real deal, is funny to me from my personal perspective.

Disagree with you here: XBMC with a shared MySQL library (which, since the new Image Caching introduced in Frodo Beta 3 a few months back, is now pretty simple to set up) does pretty much everything Plex does with regards to library syncing, and it works like magic (I've got 6 devices in my house - from iOS to Windows to OpenELEC - all synced beautifully with Frodo RC1).

Plex's transcoding skills are another story: XBMC doesn't do that at all. Of course, transcoding is CPU intensive and Plex's Media Server is already heavy on resources - so this pretty much requires a dedicated server - or powerful Client/Server PC - for it to work. But it does work semi-well.

Regardless, I've long since abandoned Plex for the reasons you describe. Plus, XBMC is superior in pretty much every way that counts.

Oh, and Plex is remarkably heavy-handed with their blog comment moderation - that's a fail, Elan.

[Livin]

While Plex isn't a bad media center, I do see it as a nerfed XBMC. I do admit that their server set up is done very well and beats the pants off of anything XBMC currently does, as far as syncing libraries and such goes. Other than that, it's a limited feature set of XBMC that doesn't quite work as well in most areas. There's even a question of quality when it comes to the code behind the Plex-specific features, but that I can't really comment on myself, not being a developer. Paying to use beta and nerfed XBMC, when we're so close to releasing the real deal, is funny to me from my personal perspective.

Disagree with you here: XBMC with a shared MySQL library (which, since the new Image Caching introduced in Frodo Beta 3 a few months back, is now pretty simple to set up) does pretty much everything Plex does with regards to library syncing, and it works like magic (I've got 6 devices in my house - from iOS to Windows to OpenELEC - all synced beautifully with Frodo RC1).

Plex's transcoding skills are another story: XBMC doesn't do that at all. Of course, transcoding is CPU intensive and Plex's Media Server is already heavy on resources - so this pretty much requires a dedicated server - or powerful Client/Server PC - for it to work. But it does work semi-well.

I run XBMC and have been since 2004 (on original XBOX back then)... but I also run Plex Server and client but only when I'm traveling and require transcoding.

It is not very resource intensive IMO.. but I'm also running a decent powered PC, not a "cell phone" ;-)

Plex's server, as a whole, is leagues ahead of XBMC in these areas:
1) shared library --- Plex setup for is 30 seconds. No fuss, no muss. I (and most others) don't want to mess with MySQL, at all.
2) media management /scraping/etc -- XBMC's is hit or miss and I find it requires 3rd party tools to ensure even basic info is properly captured. Plex is rock solid and has a fantastic web interface built-in!
3) Transcoding -- which XBMC does not do at all and is a huge gap IMO


My WISH for the XBMC community... XBMC & Plex dev teams to kiss and make up and come to an agreement that XBMC will have seamless integration (not a hacked skin or script) with Plex Server - for free.

This would be the best thing for the ecosystem and both communities!

[lockdown571]

Thanks for the lengthy and informed reply Ned. I'm not very familiar with the long history between Elan and the xbmc team, so it's starting to make more sense now.

As for the paying to beta test thing, I just don't really see it as that. Certainly some do, and that's their business. I just see at as a way to support developers that I think do good work. Those that really support them might well be the same group willing to beta test for them to help fix bugs. IIRC, they've never had open betas in the past, so small betas seem to work fine for them. Also, Elan has suggested that PlexPass will eventually evolve into a service for premium features. It sounds like Plex Sync will end up being one of those premium features.

As for for xbmc's mysql features matching Plex Media Server's, just no, not even close. I've used both extensively, and while I very much appreciate frodo's improvements, there's just no comparison. Xbmc doesn't even do basic things like automatically detect changes, not without add-ons. To keep my library updated I have to run xbmc on my whs server, which requires me to install video drivers. It's awkward as hell. Also, whenever I leave the house, I can't open up xbmc on my laptop without a vpn because it's tied to my mysql library. Pretty annoying. The list goes on.

[rodalpho]

I also use both XBMC and Plex. I use XBMC on my HTPC at home and Plex whenever I'm remote, either via their mobile clients or on my desktop at work. Plex's client/server and transcoding capabilities and mobile apps are huge deals. They're nothing less than awesome. XBMC doesn't do that.

I agree that charging people to beta test is silly, and I said so on their blog (which incidentally was not censored). They should charge for features, not beta access. You want people to betatest.

[Ned Scott]

Keep in mind, Plex does follow the GPL and they do publish any source code changes they make. We're able to pull in any of that code if we wish (this does not include things like the Server, which is a different application all together). So it's not to say that they don't give back what they are asked in the GPL.

[Robotica]

It's not the license fault; forking and going commercial is prohibited by the GPL v2.

This is almost entirely false. The GPL is perfectly fine with people forking and going commercial. The only thing you can't do is fork and then close source anything you release.

Yes, my fault. I ment perfectly fine instead of prohibited.

[Livin]

Keep in mind, Plex does follow the GPL and they do publish any source code changes they make. We're able to pull in any of that code if we wish (this does not include things like the Server, which is a different application all together). So it's not to say that they don't give back what they are asked in the GPL.

Yes... but it seems that XBMC does not take advantage of it much, if at all? It would be a huge benefit to the community if XBMC could natively use Plex Server as a back-end and transcoder... I suspect you'd see thousands of happy XBMC'ers... and hundreds (or more) converts from Plex to XBMC.

[davilla]

And thousands of dollars into the Plex coffers... No thanks.

[Robotica]

And thousands of dollars into the Plex coffers... No thanks.

This project isn't about coffers, neither yours or theirs.. It's about users.

[davilla]

Robotica, clueless as usual...

[amet]

there is the addon that uses the P*** server