[A Murder of Crows]

alright, so i thought it over and i'm going to re-state my requests, only a bit more clearly.

xbox media center is an amazing piece of work....it's almost ready to be a complete dashboard replacement.....almost....

i do a lot of installs for people who don't know how to do it themselves....and i find xbmc to be quite frustrating as far as trying to create a standard deployment...settings for the weather seem to be dependent upon the game save in the udata folder, so i can't customize the builds i take to default into mph, f, and us zip codes. i also have to completely lock out my programs from end users as there isn't a way to nest folders for the sake of organization.

it seems that the devs are mainly looking at this from an end user perspective....meaning someone who knows enough to install the program on their own. but i feel they need to take into account the less "techy" end users as well as installer/deployers.

with that in mind, i humbly make the following requests:


1. i'd like to request that xbmc has a way to allow total control of all settings via some sort of config file, seperate of any "game save" files in udata. this will allow easier deployment accross multiple systems with minimal changes nessescery to customize it to an end user's xbox.

2. i'd like to request that xbmc support the use of config file defined nested program folders. settings would be seperated for each major sub group (applications, games, emulators) and will not interfere with each other. this will allow further organization of programs for those of us who are way too ocd.

examples:

place an nes (system) folder, as well as an snes folder (system) and an n64 folder (system) into a nintendo (company) folder, which is then put into the emulators sub group....

my programs --> emulators --> nintendo --> nes --> default.xbe


place dead babies extreme (game) into shooter (genre) into adult (age) and then into the games sub group.


my programs --> games --> adult --> shooters --> dead babies extreme
my programs --> games --> kids --> dancing --> stepmania


each individual item should be able to be renamed via config so that standard installed items can always be named the same thing. each individual item should also be able to be password locked out.


3. i'd like to request that a config file be able to over-ride the file manager directly, so that restricted users (kids) can't use the file manager as a back door to restricted programs (configmagic 1.6 final, m rated games). the ability to take out certain "buttons" completely from certain users would also help secure the xbox....which brings me to the final request...


4. i'd like to request support for multi-user and restricted/privlaged/admin enviroments....different skins for kids as opposed to adults...different accessability for kids as opposed to adults as oppsed to admins. i'm currently expirementing with this in unleashx, but soon i hope to drop unleashx in favor of xbmc.....can't do it until the nested folders thing happens though


thank you everyone

[spiff]

1. i'd like to request that xbmc has a way to allow total control of all settings via some sort of config file, seperate of any "game save" files in udata. this will allow easier deployment accross multiple systems with minimal changes nessescery to customize it to an end user's xbox.

try the new system (after we are done with it). it should satisfy all your needs.

2. i'd like to request that xbmc support the use of config file defined nested program folders. settings would be seperated for each major sub group (applications, games, emulators) and will not interfere with each other. this will allow further organization of programs for those of us who are way too ocd.

not going to happen. use bookmarks, implement a patch or live with it.

3. is kinda part of our new system (since lock settings should be accessible from advancedsetting.xml and will disappear from gui if overridden).

4. xbmc is not a os and it's not designed to be multi user, sorry. and it's certainly not made so u can make money installing it for ppl. sorry.

[A Murder of Crows]

1. i'd like to request that xbmc has a way to allow total control of all settings via some sort of config file, seperate of any "game save" files in udata. this will allow easier deployment accross multiple systems with minimal changes nessescery to customize it to an end user's xbox.

try the new system (after we are done with it). it should satisfy all your needs.

2. i'd like to request that xbmc support the use of config file defined nested program folders. settings would be seperated for each major sub group (applications, games, emulators) and will not interfere with each other. this will allow further organization of programs for those of us who are way too ocd.

not going to happen. use bookmarks, implement a patch or live with it.

3. is kinda part of our new system (since lock settings should be accessible from advancedsetting.xml and will disappear from gui if overridden).

4. xbmc is not a os and it's not designed to be multi user, sorry. and it's certainly not made so u can make money installing it for ppl. sorry.

1 - sounds good.

2 - this is disappointing. bookmarks do not work properly to do nesting in the manner described. i'm not a programer and do not have the ability to "impliment a patch". please keep an open mind to this for the future. i will ask again. in the meantime, have you suggestions for such a "patch"?

3 - awesome.

4 - unleashx is a dashboard but not designed to be multi-user either....it still can be, and likewise xbmc *can* be used as a multiuser os.....all that would be required is a script done in unleashx that would choose between users, copy over the correct config file for that user from a protected area, and launch xbmc. the problem with this is that it involves unleashx.....the less programs running on a system, the better of it is, imho. why not skip the middleman and use xbmc directly to do this?


lastly, who said anything about making money? i just want to be able to have a stable, easily recreated enviroment from which to clone for relatives, friends, and relatives of friends. i want a single xbox system setup that will allow both my sister (mainstream, basic techy) and my mother (afraid of computers) to be able to use it without fear or intimidation. my mom would only ever watch movies/tv shows on the xbox. my sister would play games and emulators or copy mp3s back and forth. they live 3000 miles away though, and i can't be there to help them "figure things out" so i need it as simple as i can make it without crippling the system. i should be able to run the same exact setup on my system as they do and walk my sister through whatever setup issue she has.

at the same time, my buddy jeremy happens to be pretty proficient in most xbox apps, but his nephew only thinks he is....having a set up that locks the kid out of things he shouldn't mess with (adult oriented skins and games?) and yet still allow jeremy full access to everything, including his own settings and skins would make things easier.

you all don't have to do any of this, of course, but this is a feature request board, last i checked....and these are features i'll occasionally ask for until development stops, workarounds become available, or the features are implimented. not everyone will use these, but to those of us who have to deal with kids or technophobes, these will be of great value.

thank you for the response and for the program itself

[spiff]

i will ask again.

why bother? i just told you; it ain't gonna happen if you expect us to do it for u.

the locking kids out part is there, both from bookmarks and settings. i don't see the need for profiles to do that.

you don't want your mum to fool around with important settings?
then just set any setting in advancedsettings.xml, and they will disappear from the gui - no way your mum can screw it up.

to me it looks like the only thing of what you're requesting that isn't doable, is the nested bookmarks, which i personally see no need for at all. (maybe because i seldom play games). it's just that u have to do the mods instead of us.

[A Murder of Crows]

i will ask again.

why bother? i just told you; it ain't gonna happen if you expect us to do it for u.

the locking kids out part is there, both from bookmarks and settings. i don't see the need for profiles to do that.

you don't want your mum to fool around with important settings?
then just set any setting in advancedsettings.xml, and they will disappear from the gui - no way your mum can screw it up.

to me it looks like the only thing of what you're requesting that isn't doable, is the nested bookmarks, which i personally see no need for at all. (maybe because i seldom play games). it's just that u have to do the mods instead of us.

i bother because i can't believe that such a valuable feature would be left ignored. you are one voice of the group, but perhaps another would consider it, and if you won't develop a patch, then perhaps one could explain how it could be done. *again, i am not a coder, so i have no way to impliment this myself* i can, however suggest it get put in to the builds i recieve, but only if i have a way to explain how to do it.

if nested folders aren't something the devs are willing to consider, why bother implimenting the ablity to run any programs at all? the current way things work do not make it easy to organize programs at all, and yet every single other item can be organized really easily. unless the new way the settings will work seperates the "flatten directory hiarchy" option so that apps, emualtors, and games all have their own option, bookmarks won't work and neither will seperating by folders. if it will keep my directory structure intact and emulate the nesting, then that is a suitable workaround for the emulator issue....

as for my mom....if she "logs in" i want her to have the option of running movies or photos, and that's about it. i'm not worried about her messing up settings, i'm worried about her feeling overwhelmed by too many options. at the same time, my sister should be able to play games, movies, music, emulators, and some apps, change skins, etc. mom and sis should be able to choose completely different locations for weather forecasts, and, god forbid, if the box needs to be sent back to me for any reason, i should be able to get into a profile that has total control.

locking out kids isn't all that a profile is about. multiple users in a house sharing a box is what it's about, each with personal preferences, abilities, and knowledge. project mayhem iii is a great skin, but i'd rather have something more simple or "fun" for the kids to look at. i personally would prefer a more robust interface, and i know my buddy would like more "adult" oriented skins. maybe my sister and i like our default window to be home, each with a different skin, my roomate would like it to default to music, my mom and girlfriend to video, and i'd like a restricted section that just shows kid friendly games for my buddy's nephew. perhaps a little extreme, but at one point my girlfriend, my mom, my sister, and myself all lived in the same apartment, with friends who came over. my mom never touched the entertainment center because it was too intimidating. my sister couldn't figure out how to pull movies from the network while she was here. my girlfriend hates technology for the most part and only would use the thing to watch movies or play music. now that mom and sis moved back to hawaii, we have a roommate who brings over a lot of friends. the xbox is in teh common area, and i don't need all of them messing with things, yet i do want them to be able to use the system.

xbmc seems so close to being able to pull this off.

can't wait to see the new settings implimented....i'd love to know if it can actually do what i need....hide whole directories or individual shortcuts from a user entirely, without even an "enter passcode" screen.

thanks again

[spiff]

you are one voice of the group, but perhaps another would consider it, and if you won't develop a patch, then perhaps one could explain how it could be done.

very true indeed. however, if u go over the changelog for, say, the last half a year, you'll probably figure out who's got the "responsibility" for my programs.

sure, you just need to implement a more advanced loaddirectory function, as well as add support for virtual paths in my program. and figure out how to these files should look, how the inheriting rules should be etc.

[A Murder of Crows]

you are one voice of the group, but perhaps another would consider it, and if you won't develop a patch, then perhaps one could explain how it could be done.

very true indeed. however, if u go over the changelog for, say, the last half a year, you'll probably figure out who's got the "responsibility" for my programs.

sure, you just need to implement a more advanced loaddirectory function, as well as add support for virtual paths in my program. and figure out how to these files should look, how the inheriting rules should be etc.

am i the only one who finds it ironic that the dev in charge of "my programs" doesn't really play games and can't see the value of nesting for organization


i'm totally frustrated that you wouldn't even consider attempting it as a future feature....i appreciate what everyone has done, but i can't see how someone who can't envision the potential or the possibilites ended up with the job of keeping the programs section going.

in the meantime, i'll keep asking, and keep spreading the idea around. it may be the only way to get you to see the value in it, since you "seldom play games".

i leave you tonight with this: what good is my programs if it can't be edited and organized?

[spiff]

am i the only one who finds it ironic that the dev in charge of "my programs" doesn't really play games and can't see the value of nesting for organization

sure, i see the irony. but the fact of the matter is that none of our devs play games, so if i didn't, nobody would. besides, it is mostly an "accident" caused by my addition of video mode switching and trainers.

i'm totally frustrated that you wouldn't even consider attempting it as a future feature....i appreciate what everyone has done, but i can't see how someone who can't envision the potential or the possibilites ended up with the job of keeping the programs section going.

i won't consider this since i think your solution is a bad one. i never said that a redesign couldn't take place.

[A Murder of Crows]

am i the only one who finds it ironic that the dev in charge of "my programs" doesn't really play games and can't see the value of nesting for organization

sure, i see the irony. but the fact of the matter is that none of our devs play games, so if i didn't, nobody would. besides, it is mostly an "accident" caused by my addition of video mode switching and trainers.

i'm totally frustrated that you wouldn't even consider attempting it as a future feature....i appreciate what everyone has done, but i can't see how someone who can't envision the potential or the possibilites ended up with the job of keeping the programs section going.

i won't consider this since i think your solution is a bad one. i never said that a redesign couldn't take place.

then perhaps you can suggest a more viable way to create a more organized emulator setup?

i currently need the emulators to be organized by company (or type, as i group arcade emulators and pc/computer emulation together), then by system in order of release. i have seperate copies of some emulators that do multiple game systems (master system and game gear, for example) and would need them named accordingly.

emulators-->
-----------
arcade --> mameox 128+, finalburnalphaxxx, ki-xxx
atari --> 2600, 5200 & others, lynx
nec --> turbografx-16/pc engine
nintendo -->nes (old), nes (new), snes, n64, gba
sega --> master system, genesis, gamegear
snk --> neogeo home & arcade, neogeocd, neogeo pocket
sony --> playstation
pc & comuter emulation --> dos, commodore vic-20, x60000, zx spectrum
other --> intellivision, oddyssey2, colecovision, wonderswan

that's how i need it setup for just emulators. games would be a bit different....seperating either by letters or by genere's is possible, but having 150+ games to go thru in one place takes too long with a controller.

i know i'm not the only one who wants/needs something like this implimented as far as nesting goes.

this doesn't even mention the profile thing

do whatever you need to do....just keep it in mind...even if the bookmark system was smart enough to to copy the folder structure, that would be half the battle....i can configure dvd2xbox and my other apps to xbmcs needs, so long as xbmc meets mine.

[spiff]

okay, this is how i see it done.

find some kind of backend (say, gamespot.com) for game information. add scrapers (+ support for a manual .nfo directing the scraper perhaps).

add a file view, which is just that - a file view using the directory structure etc. no database included there (just as it is in my music now).

in addition have a library view, using the scrapers for games. here u browse by category, then subgenres etc (like the my music library is now). for emulators, which isn't covered by the scraper, it would be quite easy to make a .xml that we can ship with xbmc which, using xbe id numbers, group them for us. i guess the same goes for apps, i think the number of apps actually used frequently should be easily coverable (and the system would be extendable as requests pops up anyway).

main reasons why i don't like your system:

1) it's only accessible for advanced users - something we have, atleast lately, been trying our best to avoid (for functions most users would like to use).
2) too much (imo) unecessary manual work required, most users wouldn't care to use it, meaning lots of time spent on implementing something 1% of users would even care to use.
3) limited by nature - imo we can design this to do much more (my thoughts are just one example) if we just chew a bit on it.

[shaneuk]

these people do this for fun, in their own time, and they do a good job. this is no brown-nose attempt id like to point out, but just try to remember its great to contribute to feature requests but arguing the point out with a voluntary group is alittle rude, its all done in spare time.

[nianhbg]

these people do this for fun, in their own time, and they do a good job. this is no brown-nose attempt id like to point out, but just try to remember its great to contribute to feature requests but arguing the point out with a voluntary group is alittle rude, its all done in spare time.

i can´t agree more. dev´s are doing great job with xbmc.

[jmarshall]

i mostly agree with spiff about his idea. the only way you can get a truely information rich view for my programs is to rely on net based information.

on the otherhand, i think the current system of my programs, which is fundamentally file based can be improved and simplified as follows:

1. remove all the "flattening" and "scan" stuff.
2. just have it list directories like every other view.
3. with one exception: if a directory contains a .xbe file (look for default.xbe first, then other .xbe files after) then "flatten" that directory down to the single file.

now, like spiff, i don't play games, and only bother to click on my programs to test code changes or to attempt to reproduce bugs. thus, i may be missing some fundamental stuff that will break with the above system.

assuming that whatever breaks is just some brain-dead installer app or something, i see no issue with it.

it will still require significant work, something that i for one am not volunteering for - just have too much other stuff to work on at this point.

it would, however, be fairly simple for someone who has not developed for xbmc to get started on.

cheers,
jonathan

[A Murder of Crows]

okay, this is how i see it done.

find some kind of backend (say, gamespot.com) for game information. add scrapers (+ support for a manual .nfo directing the scraper perhaps).

add a file view, which is just that - a file view using the directory structure etc. no database included there (just as it is in my music now).

in addition have a library view, using the scrapers for games. here u browse by category, then subgenres etc (like the my music library is now). for emulators, which isn't covered by the scraper, it would be quite easy to make a .xml that we can ship with xbmc which, using xbe id numbers, group them for us. i guess the same goes for apps, i think the number of apps actually used frequently should be easily coverable (and the system would be extendable as requests pops up anyway).

main reasons why i don't like your system:

1) it's only accessible for advanced users - something we have, atleast lately, been trying our best to avoid (for functions most users would like to use).
2) too much (imo) unecessary manual work required, most users wouldn't care to use it, meaning lots of time spent on implementing something 1% of users would even care to use.
3) limited by nature - imo we can design this to do much more (my thoughts are just one example) if we just chew a bit on it.

this sounds great!

i'm all for simplifying things....i just know that no matter how simple a program is to use overall, without some organization abilities, my mom won't touch it. i litterally had to reduce her start menu on her computer to 6 catagories (internet, multimedia, productivity, system utilities, photo editing, games) and put the absolute most used programs in quicklaunch in order to make it user friendly for her....catagories made sense to her, and allowed her to find what she was looking for quickly and easily if she didn't use it all the time. i see bookmarks as quicklaunch, and now i just want to organize the "start menu" a bit better.

as it is now, she doesn't see her computer a being a place to watch movies or tv shows....so if i get things going for her via the xbox, plop a nice big bookmark to her shared movie/tv files on her pc, she'll actually use the damned thing....might even play a game or 2 with my sister or on her own


as for 2, i know of more people who would use it than who wouldnt.....most people use xbmc as the media player (of course). i get 2 reactions when i show it to people - the first is awestruck.....the second is intimidation. easier handling/organization of my programs would solve much of this.

i totally lock out my programs because it's too confusing having 30 emulators on the top level, and because some programs that i place major restrictions on (configmagic, krayzie's extras) show up in applications on the top level, so i have to hunt around in the xml to lock those programs out.


anyway, thanx much for the bit of thought put in to your idea. it's totally a step in the right direction.

[A Murder of Crows]

these people do this for fun, in their own time, and they do a good job. this is no brown-nose attempt id like to point out, but just try to remember its great to contribute to feature requests but arguing the point out with a voluntary group is alittle rude, its all done in spare time.

i can´t agree more. dev´s are doing great job with xbmc.

i totally appreciate the dev's work. if it wasn't for xport, krayzie, and team xbmc, i wouldn't own an xbox.

i just don't like to hear that something that could be so useful to so many people would be shut down with a "never gonna happen" response....i could understand if what i wanted to impliment was really difficult, but all i'm actually asking for is the ability to create shortcuts within shortcuts (or bookmarks inside of bookmarks) to organize my programs, and for a way for xbmc to handle multiple settings files (profiles) to be used on 1 xbox without having to install the program multiple times or having another program do it for them.

if the devs don't go for profile thing, i can probably handle it myself by using unleashx. i've got the tutorials for it, and it scripts pretty well...i'd rather not have to use unleashx at all anymore, but what can you do? as for organizing my programs better, to be honest, it always seemed like my programs was an afterthought in comparison to the rest of the project, and now it has pretty much been confirmed.

had i any programing expirence, i'd consider trying to do since i feel it really is nessescery for ease of setup/use, but i'm no programmer.

thanx again