2015-03-04, 19:16
2015-03-04, 19:16
(2015-03-04, 19:11)piipes Wrote:You can always keep using 14.x(2015-03-04, 10:28)jjd-uk Wrote: I was in the highly doubtful camp as I liked the old instant behaviour, but I'm now a convert after I've done quite a bit of testing, although we can't exactly replicate v14 we can get 99.99% of the way there will making use of all the benefits of additive seek and only requiring one button for each direction of skip.
The only argument I could understand is that if you configure 2 negative steps you lose the instant skipping behaviour from having 2 dedicated buttons, due to the necessary delay to be able to register 2 button presses for the 2nd skip step value. From my testing if you set the delay to 250ms then you get pretty damn near instant skipping, does require you to be very quick the key presses though.
I don't like any delay. I have three pair seeking buttons, so i do not need any smart skipping.
I really want zero delay back...
No one is forcing you to upgrade
2015-03-04, 19:39
(2015-03-04, 19:15)da-anda Wrote: regardless what you change, there will always be users not liking it at first because of old habits. Give it a try for some time and then judge, or if you like what you have, don't change anything. Going forward with software development will mean that old/outdated things will be dropped in favor of newer/better ones.
Totally agree!
2015-03-04, 19:47
(2015-03-04, 19:15)da-anda Wrote: regardless what you change, there will always be users not liking it at first because of old habits. Give it a try for some time and then judge, or if you like what you have, don't change anything. Going forward with software development will mean that old/outdated things will be dropped in favor of newer/better ones.
I try, but i can't understand why i need this smart seeking? I just move fingers up, if i need bigger jump.
I understand this, if you have just one jumping buttons.
I use to tap 10s seeking fast, and really hate all delay.
2015-03-04, 20:00
(2015-03-04, 19:16)Martijn Wrote:(2015-03-04, 19:11)piipes Wrote:You can always keep using 14.x(2015-03-04, 10:28)jjd-uk Wrote: I was in the highly doubtful camp as I liked the old instant behaviour, but I'm now a convert after I've done quite a bit of testing, although we can't exactly replicate v14 we can get 99.99% of the way there will making use of all the benefits of additive seek and only requiring one button for each direction of skip.
The only argument I could understand is that if you configure 2 negative steps you lose the instant skipping behaviour from having 2 dedicated buttons, due to the necessary delay to be able to register 2 button presses for the 2nd skip step value. From my testing if you set the delay to 250ms then you get pretty damn near instant skipping, does require you to be very quick the key presses though.
I don't like any delay. I have three pair seeking buttons, so i do not need any smart skipping.
I really want zero delay back...
No one is forcing you to upgrade
Maybe... But maybe is better, if user can choose how to use remote.
You can use phone, mouse, keyboard or mini remote. Thats ok.
But please left that old non delay option left, if someone have old remote with many buttons.
2015-03-04, 20:05
Many options is a lot of code, is a lot to maintain, is a lot that could go wrong and break.
2015-03-04, 20:10
It is not for those who don't have enough buttons on remote, but this is the most advanced way to use skipping. Basically all users who have doubts about this convert to additive seeking once they use it for a while. And as da-anda and others said several times already: just disable it and you don't use it.
@da-anda maybe there should be a sticky at first post that highlights that additive seeking can be disabled?
@da-anda maybe there should be a sticky at first post that highlights that additive seeking can be disabled?
2015-03-04, 20:32
(2015-03-04, 20:10)gurabli Wrote: It is not for those who don't have enough buttons on remote, but this is the most advanced way to use skipping. Basically all users who have doubts about this convert to additive seeking once they use it for a while. And as da-anda and others said several times already: just disable it and you don't use it.
@da-anda maybe there should be a sticky at first post that highlights that additive seeking can be disabled?
Sorry my whining.
Now i have latest nightlies and i can find that disable option.
2015-03-04, 21:14
No whining at all, everybody has a preference, I always keep repeating myself, the best software is when a user can change and decide what and how to use.
Give additive seeking some time, you will like it. If not, disable it
Give additive seeking some time, you will like it. If not, disable it
2015-03-04, 21:53
(2015-03-04, 21:14)gurabli Wrote: No whining at all, everybody has a preference, I always keep repeating myself, the best software is when a user can change and decide what and how to use.
Give additive seeking some time, you will like it. If not, disable it
You are so right. I don't try anything new, if someone try to force me
I already start to think, if i can use old smallstep jump with one button and 1-5-10-30min with second button pair.
Now i use that smallstep like a fast forward.
2015-03-04, 22:05
You see, I told you You can adjust to your needs, that's the best in it. And old habits are very hard to change sometimes.
Additive seeking is basically one of the missing functions that compared to MediaPortal makes, sorry, made Kodi much inferior.
I very much look forward to hit stable.
You can adjust to your needs, that's the best in it. And old habits are very hard to change sometimes. Additive seeking is basically one of the missing functions that compared to MediaPortal makes, sorry, made Kodi much inferior.
I very much look forward to hit stable.
2015-03-05, 00:14
(2015-03-04, 19:15)da-anda Wrote: regardless what you change, there will always be users not liking it at first because of old habits. Give it a try for some time and then judge, or if you like what you have, don't change anything. Going forward with software development will mean that old/outdated things will be dropped in favor of newer/better ones.
No offense to anyone and this isn't specifically in reply to this comment, but its this thinking that has struck a nerve in me.
I love additive seeking, but I don't think this should apply to the v14 behvior. It was not old or outdated, it was only different. We were told that additive seeking was just a new option and that the old behavior would still be there. Then in an update to additive seeking for music, smallstepback for video was changed, and no one has been able to tell me why.
I think a better argument would be that any steps should just replace fastforward or rewind. FF and RW are actually broken on some platforms and most people on our own Team don't even seem to know that, because it's almost never used, because steps are easier to use. Yet we keep FF and RW in there. Why? Because it's a different option. It's not an older or outdated option. It's not the "wrong" option. It's just an option. Even if it's only used by a few people, and almost no one on the Team, we've always seen it as a reasonable feature.
Why is the configuration of smallstepback any different? Why is this suddenly an impossible request that would somehow hold us back?
2015-03-05, 01:14
Re: 'everyone who uses additive will like it' - bollocks. That's not for you to decide, and also, just not true. I have tried it now, and I can see some merit in it, but I also can see myself and my family missing the old behaviour, and here's why:
Old system I could, with just one single button press, and zero delay - and with an out of the box configuration - all the things I commonly do:
ONE CLICK: Jump Back 7 seconds
ONE CLICK:Jump Back 30 Secnds
ONE CLICK:Jump Back 10 mins (10% for shorter files)
ONE CLICK:Jump Back 1 Chapter
ONE CLICK:Jump Forward 30 Seconds
ONE CLICK:Jump Forward 10 mins (or10%)
ONE CLICK:Jump Forward 1 Chapter
4 CLICKS: Jump Forward/BACK 2 Min
6 CLICKS: Jump Forward/Back 3 min
With the new system, if I want to do similar:
1. Configure the seek steps (may not be necessary depending on the defaults).
Let's say:
Forward: 15, 30, 1min, 3min, 10min
Back: 7, 30, 1min, 3min, 10min
ONE CLICK: Jump Back 7 seconds
TWO, MAYBE THREE CLICKS: Jump Back 30 Secnds
FIVE CLICKS: Jump Back 10 mins (10% for shorter files)
NOT EVEN SURE? PRESUMABLY STILL ONE CLICK (separate action?): Jump Back 1 Chapter
TWO CLICKS: Jump Forward 30 Seconds
FIVE CLICKS: Jump Forward 10 mins (or10%)
NOT SURE? Jump Forward 1 Chapter
TWO CLICKS, WAIT, TWO CLICKS: Jump Forward/Back 2 mins (Or 4 CLICKS FORWARD, WAIT, THREE BACK)
FOUR CLICKS:
What is gained -
well, it's easier to seek 3 mins or values between say 1 min and 10 mins. Probably large chunks in general. The skips are now UI configurable.
What is lost -
I actually have to click way MORE for all sorts of common skips. I no longer have an instant 'I just missed that dialogue' button.
For new users, it will be confusing - almost all other media players in the world use one button = one function - because it's easy to understand and doesn't cause confusion. I thought ease of use was a primary goal with kodi?
I think it's a huge assumption this is 'better' at all - but an even bigger assumption it's a better default. It's a classic power user feature if you ask me. Yes, awesome to have if you like it and are used to it. But for those of with multi button remotes (so most of your user base using MCE/Hamrony type remotes, I'd venture to say that's a pretty big proportion) - we've definitely lost some stuff and made some other stuff more tedious.
If I don't want additive seeking - i.e. want instant seeking - it's not clear to me from the configuration how I achieve this or disable it (Isengard alpha 1) - I presume it's set the delay to 0 btu it doesn't really say that clearly (which can obviosuly easily be fixed). If disabled that way, it seems it uses only the minimum seek step forward and back, so I could have instant 30 second skips again (and up down appear to do the 10 mins thing as before then) - but smallstepback is completely lost! - and that's the really crap thing. You're offering ALMOST v14 behaviour, but removing one of the best things about it....
So really, isn't the best compromise to keep one, existing, has been maintained for years and years anyway - smallstepback action (even if you route it through the new seek handler) - that way people can get exactly the V14 behaviour OR the new additive seeking and everyone is happy?
(Also - the tedious 'well you can then just stick with V14' is a crap answer and you know it (or should know it). There are countless reasons that's not a good plan, and you hardly want the bulk of your users hanging back on older versions. And we all contribute in our own ways - whether it's code, addons, advocacy, helping others etc etc. And we're only arguing cause we love Kodi and care about where it goes...)
Old system I could, with just one single button press, and zero delay - and with an out of the box configuration - all the things I commonly do:
ONE CLICK: Jump Back 7 seconds
ONE CLICK:Jump Back 30 Secnds
ONE CLICK:Jump Back 10 mins (10% for shorter files)
ONE CLICK:Jump Back 1 Chapter
ONE CLICK:Jump Forward 30 Seconds
ONE CLICK:Jump Forward 10 mins (or10%)
ONE CLICK:Jump Forward 1 Chapter
4 CLICKS: Jump Forward/BACK 2 Min
6 CLICKS: Jump Forward/Back 3 min
With the new system, if I want to do similar:
1. Configure the seek steps (may not be necessary depending on the defaults).
Let's say:
Forward: 15, 30, 1min, 3min, 10min
Back: 7, 30, 1min, 3min, 10min
ONE CLICK: Jump Back 7 seconds
TWO, MAYBE THREE CLICKS: Jump Back 30 Secnds
FIVE CLICKS: Jump Back 10 mins (10% for shorter files)
NOT EVEN SURE? PRESUMABLY STILL ONE CLICK (separate action?): Jump Back 1 Chapter
TWO CLICKS: Jump Forward 30 Seconds
FIVE CLICKS: Jump Forward 10 mins (or10%)
NOT SURE? Jump Forward 1 Chapter
TWO CLICKS, WAIT, TWO CLICKS: Jump Forward/Back 2 mins (Or 4 CLICKS FORWARD, WAIT, THREE BACK)
FOUR CLICKS:
What is gained -
well, it's easier to seek 3 mins or values between say 1 min and 10 mins. Probably large chunks in general. The skips are now UI configurable.
What is lost -
I actually have to click way MORE for all sorts of common skips. I no longer have an instant 'I just missed that dialogue' button.
For new users, it will be confusing - almost all other media players in the world use one button = one function - because it's easy to understand and doesn't cause confusion. I thought ease of use was a primary goal with kodi?
I think it's a huge assumption this is 'better' at all - but an even bigger assumption it's a better default. It's a classic power user feature if you ask me. Yes, awesome to have if you like it and are used to it. But for those of with multi button remotes (so most of your user base using MCE/Hamrony type remotes, I'd venture to say that's a pretty big proportion) - we've definitely lost some stuff and made some other stuff more tedious.
If I don't want additive seeking - i.e. want instant seeking - it's not clear to me from the configuration how I achieve this or disable it (Isengard alpha 1) - I presume it's set the delay to 0 btu it doesn't really say that clearly (which can obviosuly easily be fixed). If disabled that way, it seems it uses only the minimum seek step forward and back, so I could have instant 30 second skips again (and up down appear to do the 10 mins thing as before then) - but smallstepback is completely lost! - and that's the really crap thing. You're offering ALMOST v14 behaviour, but removing one of the best things about it....
So really, isn't the best compromise to keep one, existing, has been maintained for years and years anyway - smallstepback action (even if you route it through the new seek handler) - that way people can get exactly the V14 behaviour OR the new additive seeking and everyone is happy?
(Also - the tedious 'well you can then just stick with V14' is a crap answer and you know it (or should know it). There are countless reasons that's not a good plan, and you hardly want the bulk of your users hanging back on older versions. And we all contribute in our own ways - whether it's code, addons, advocacy, helping others etc etc. And we're only arguing cause we love Kodi and care about where it goes...)
2015-03-05, 03:03
Most remotes do long press different to short press. Therefore with the usual four buttons (left right up down) you could have 8 steps.
if you then had step forward and step back able to take a parameter (seconds) you could define your own steps just as you like it. EG
Right - short press stepforward 5 long press stepforward 30
Left - short press stepback 5 long press stepback 30
and similarly for up and down.
If people could define their own steps, it'd be great.
if you then had step forward and step back able to take a parameter (seconds) you could define your own steps just as you like it. EG
Right - short press stepforward 5 long press stepforward 30
Left - short press stepback 5 long press stepback 30
and similarly for up and down.
If people could define their own steps, it'd be great.
2015-03-05, 03:19
long press is way too slow for nice responsive seeking though...especially if you have to do a few long presses in a row...
