Discussion - rules for this subforum

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jurialmunkey Offline
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Post: #16
(2015-03-19 00:47)Skribbler1 Wrote:  When a polite question as asked to a developer about the progress of a skin, it would be very much appreciated if the developer answers in just as a polite manner as the question was asked.
Did you read any of my posts at all Confused


(2015-03-19 00:47)Skribbler1 Wrote:  If users are obligated to watch how they ask questions, or perhaps not ask certain questions at all, then devs should be obligated to share regular updates. If this does not seem reasonable then I say we stop creating rules against free speech and drop the 'censorship' Smile

False equivalence. Proscribing vs prescribing conduct. Being told *not* to do something is entirely different from being told you have to do something. Developers owe you nothing.

Every single forum has rules for what is and isn't acceptable. We have rules about being polite and civil, about not discussing piracy addons, about not misrepresenting others works, and so on. I am not suggesting censure of voices - I'm suggesting some guidelines for posting in this forum so that it is more productive and conducive to development of skins, which is the purpose here. Otherwise the option is to lock threads until there is a release (like furii suggested) or the developers leave the forums entirely and you get nothing as an end user. Its as simple as that.
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Skribbler1 Offline
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Post: #17
(2015-03-19 01:55)jurialmunkey Wrote:  Being told *not* to do something is entirely different from being told you have to do something.

Well that depends on what it is you are trying to say.

You can not be rude vs You have to be polite.
You can not break the rules vs You have to abide by the rules.

(2015-03-19 01:55)jurialmunkey Wrote:  Developers owe you nothing.

I personally expect nothing from developers, and I do not feel that they owe me anything.
So if you feel I have come across that way then I apologise Smile
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jurialmunkey Offline
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Post: #18
You still miss the distinction - you are arguing about semantics rather than the actual point. No one is telling you that you have to post anything, just that if you do to follow the guidelines. However, you are saying the developers ought to be obligated to post updates. One is a choice that has stipulations, the other is simply forced. The point is to reduce work not add to it.

And its irrelevant anyway as developers do post updates. Sure if a thread has been inactive for more than a month and there has been no word from the developer then a polite question about its status is fine. Its not ok when the thread has active updates or the developer has made a clear statement about its status. I dont see how its difficult to understand that reducing stress on developers who work for free will result in more productive and enthusiastic developers which means better things for everyone. Whats more important - having happy productive developers or the right to demand etas which only really serves to stress out developers when they have been asked for the 100th time and the answer remains the same.
(This post was last modified: 2015-03-19 03:25 by jurialmunkey.)
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TheLegendOfMart Offline
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Post: #19
Where do you get off saying users shouldn't be able to do this or say that, you say we should be respectful but when users ask questions we are met with either silence or very aggressive/dismissive responses that talk down at us.

If you want to dictate how us lowly skin users should act then it should be a two way street, developers should be respectful of people who are excited to use their latest creation and have a set of rules that govern them also.

No one is saying that developers should be forced to keep to a timetable and should respond to any question 'just because'.

There have been half a dozen skins that I've been excited to use that I check the thread daily and there hasn't been any updates in over a month other than "no it hasn't been abandoned".

Is it too hard to take 2 minutes just to say that you've been busy and not had a chance to touch the skin rather than being very blunt and saying 'I do have a life you know', or once a week or something just make a little message saying what you've been working on if anything.

I apologise for my previous remarks in the OSMC thread but I am only treating skin developers how us users have been treated.

If this gets me banned so be it, I've been as respectful as I can considering the way skinners treat us.
(This post was last modified: 2015-03-19 09:46 by TheLegendOfMart.)
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fantasticn Offline
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Post: #20
(2015-03-19 00:31)furii Wrote:  yes, please, this. i'm so tired of seeing those types of posts.

honestly, i would be totally fine if threads were locked so that only the skinner could post to give updates on where things are at. i'm sure this is an extreme view few others might share. i know this would make it difficult for skinners to get feedback. however, if a skin is to the point where feedback is desired it's likely because there has been some kind of release and the above types of posts would be nonexistent anyway.

Yeah, that is exactly where we would end up finally. And that is not the place I want to be: A forum that is not a dialoge for all members anymore but only the communication-plattform of the "elite". Please accept that not everybody is a developer and there are noobs, novices, experts etc. etc. etc. Some people might not be "skinners" or software-developers. They might have their skills in other things. But hat does not deprive them of the right to ask questions. Even more I think it grants them the right to do so because a forum is a plattform to share knowlegde especially with the ones who do not have it.

(2015-03-19 09:45)TheLegendOfMart Wrote:  Where do you get off saying users shouldn't be able to do this or say that, you say we should be respectful but when users ask questions we are met with either silence or very aggressive/dismissive responses that talk down at us.

If you want to dictate how us lowly skin users should act then it should be a two way street, developers should be respectful of people who are excited to use their latest creation and have a set of rules that govern them also.

No one is saying that developers should be forced to keep to a timetable and should respond to any question 'just because'.

There have been half a dozen skins that I've been excited to use that I check the thread daily and there hasn't been any updates in over a month other than "no it hasn't been abandoned".

I totally agree with TheLegendofMart. Though I think his tone in the OSMC-thread might have been slightly inappropriate (maybe unintentionally) some developers do not seem to realize that the tone of their answers is very rude and aggressive as well - though the question or the remark of the user that they are refering to might not have been rude or agressive in any way. Moreover it seems that developers deem themselves in the position to act like this any time they like to because they are the goddesses of development and the users - not skilled enough to create something themeselves - shall live with whatever they are granted as information and without the right to ask questions. That is is not balanced system and that is not the forum I want to see.

As I just said: If you start a thread in the "work in progress"-Section than either (a) show your progress through regular updates or (b) inform the users about the progress or if/why it is currently on hold or © at least live with the questions or speculations of the users as to the status of the project. It absolutely irritates me that "skinners" seem so "thin-skinned" themselves with respect to questions regarding the status of their project, but expect other users to take rude anwers or - what this thread is about - being banned for even raising the question.

(2015-03-19 09:45)TheLegendOfMart Wrote:  Is it too hard to take 2 minutes just to say that you've been busy and not had a chance to touch the skin rather than being very blunt and saying 'I do have a life you know', or once a week or something just make a little message saying what you've been working on if anything.

I would not go this far. No developer should be obgligated to post a status update of his skin. That should definitly remain up to himself. But if he does not inform about the progress of his work (the so called "work in progress") regularely then he may live with questions or speculations in this respect. However, if we actually see a rule stating that those questions or remarks might not be asked or be banned in general, then - in return - I am afraid we would need such rule for the developers as well. Fair is fair.

Brgds,

FantasticN
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TheLegendOfMart Offline
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Post: #21
Ok maybe once a week is a little extreme but at least semi regular updates. If a skin has to take a back seat due to work or life commitments then post a message saying it will be a month or a few months then people can stop checking every two seconds.
(This post was last modified: 2015-03-19 11:32 by TheLegendOfMart.)
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zag Offline
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Post: #22
I'll be keeping my eye on this forum a little more now. Thanks for the heads up.
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Jayz2K Offline
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Post: #23
I understand both points of view and I have to admit that's right, sometimes, skinners/devs replies are a bit rude but ... even if it's no excuses, just put yourself in situation to understand. Haven't you been in or seen a common scene in a supermarket when a child claim for something ? "Hey daddy, can you buy me this ?" "No, sorry" "Please, buy me this" "No" "Pleeeaaaaasse !" "I said no ! and if you don't stop ...". We don't bring something on the moment just because we can't, or just because we know you won't be satisfied with. Insistence makes the tone to raise up. You will probably ask why Daddy allowed the child to stop to the toys area ? Well maybe to have more ideas for upcoming Christmas or Birthday ? It's nothing else but the life. We are all humans and we have to deal together with that. No offense there for the child compare, it's what came to me on the moment and ... still, I hope we, all, are a little bit a child in mind.

Sometimes, we have this strange feeling, people think it goes like "Ok google" "Let me download this now".

We've all been visitor one day. As a recent member, I've switched fast to the contribution section because of my skinning experience. However, KODI is much more coding oriented, I was more Graphic tools or WYSIWYG skinning software user. I've learned everything in a few time because I have this absolute need to create things and I don't give up. I've not chosen the easiest way by starting with a white page instead of modifying an existing skin but all I can say is that giving some timeframe about development is near impossible or have many chance to be wrong. We have all to deal with our passion and familly, job or occupations. I've suprprised myself writing code in my head and my wife sayin' : "Hey ! You' here ?" ... :/ This is when you know you need to make a break ! Sometimes, we just have a lack of inspiration. How do you think then how we feel when reading "Well, another skin abandonned !". We also maybe want to take some distance from the forum, it's not just like if we had to maintain a blog.

We all here, visitors and skinners/devs, are trying to create together amazing things, let's do this in friendliness. I engage myself not to be rough in my replies if it's a legitimate question (or not to reply if it's not).

[Skin] KOver - V1.1.0 Stable (Repo version)
[WIP] ReKOver - Skinning tool project

If I've been helpful or you like my work, hit "THANK USER" button ;) ...
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nessus Offline
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Post: #24
Best way to avoid all these (inducing this discussion) is if all skinners posting projects that they are at least in beta stage.

If the developer wants to go public then, along with the feedback comes and the impatience from the users. It's natural. If he want's to avoid any requests or questions then is up to him to state that clearly in the beginning of the thread although it would be wrong since he himself want it to go public.

In any case no one cant (and must not) put rules on what people can ask or say except of the skin developer.

Cheers
Nessus
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Skribbler1 Offline
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Post: #25
(2015-03-19 03:16)jurialmunkey Wrote:  You still miss the distinction - you are arguing about semantics rather than the actual point. No one is telling you that you have to post anything, just that if you do to follow the guidelines. However, you are saying the developers ought to be obligated to post updates. One is a choice that has stipulations, the other is simply forced. The point is to reduce work not add to it.

If you want to be literal about it... You may not be telling me I have to post anything, but your op definitely tells me what I should NOT post, even though half of those questions are harmless when asked politely. And then you claim it is not censorship... Ok then.

We really do seem to be going around in circles here. I don't feel I am arguing, just merely stating my opinion, however pointless you may deem it. I find myself apologising when I feel you misunderstand my point.

So hopefully this time I can make it very clear. I am saying developers ought to be obligated to post updates and follow a set of rules if users are to be obligated to follow the set of rules that YOU deem necessary in your original post. My proposition is unreasonable and so is yours. Nothing more nothing less.
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jjd-uk Offline
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Post: #26
The Team is open to anything that makes the lives of the skinners developing here easier.

Would changing the structure and the posting permissions of this part of the forum help at all? or is everyone happy to leave it as it is? or leave as is with amended forum rules & increased moderation?

I'm not exactly sure what's possible, but it maybe possible to change the structure to something like:

Skin Ideas subforum - An area open to everyone for posting of ideas, concepts, mockups etc.

WIP Concepts subforum - An area where only members of the skinners group can post and would be read only to everyone else. This is for early work that's deemed not ready for end users but the skinner may want to make it public to exchange ideas with other skinners, also having this early work public can act as a source of inspiration to other skinners even if it ends up abandoned.

WIP Testing subforum - An area that only members of the skinners group can create new threads and but anyone can post. Once the skinner deems something has progressed enough or wants end user feedback they create a new thread in this forum for beta testing and general user feedback.
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TheLegendOfMart Offline
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Post: #27
(2015-03-19 13:32)Jayz2K Wrote:  Haven't you been in or seen a common scene in a supermarket when a child claim for something ? "Hey daddy, can you buy me this ?" "No, sorry" "Please, buy me this" "No" "Pleeeaaaaasse !" "I said no ! and if you don't stop ...". We don't bring something on the moment just because we can't, or just because we know you won't be satisfied with.

So now we are children and the skinners are our parents who know better and are superior?

If you wanted to continue with that analogy it would be more akin to the 'parents' taking the 'children' to a toy shop window and showing them all the amazing, cool toys and then saying sorry you can't have this and then every few months taking the 'children' past the shop and continuing to show them and saying you can have it but not yet then the 'parents' getting angry when the 'children' throw hissy fits.

Your response is exactly the kind of thing people get angry at, yet somehow the mods only seem to punish the people who get angry and not the skinners who instigate it.
(This post was last modified: 2015-03-19 15:05 by TheLegendOfMart.)
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Mudislander Offline
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Post: #28
(2015-03-19 15:02)TheLegendOfMart Wrote:  
(2015-03-19 13:32)Jayz2K Wrote:  Haven't you been in or seen a common scene in a supermarket when a child claim for something ? "Hey daddy, can you buy me this ?" "No, sorry" "Please, buy me this" "No" "Pleeeaaaaasse !" "I said no ! and if you don't stop ...". We don't bring something on the moment just because we can't, or just because we know you won't be satisfied with.

So now we are children and the skinners are our parents who know better?

If you wanted to continue with that analogy it would be more akin to the 'parents' taking the 'children' to a toy shop window and showing them all the amazing, cool toys and then saying sorry you can't have this and then every few months taking the 'children' past the shop and continuing to show them and saying you can have it but not yet then the 'parents' getting angry when the 'children' throw hissy fits.

Big Grin

Noli illegitimi carborundum


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Rantanplan-1 Offline
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Post: #29
(2015-03-18 06:17)jurialmunkey Wrote:  especially considering this is a development subforum.

We already have a clear and simple method for labelling threads: Concept; WIP; and Release. These are straightforward and work well.
In addition to these I would propose:
  • No posts requesting an ETA - if the developer has an ETA they will put this in the first post of the thread
    .....

    What are everyone's thoughts/ideas? Any additions/changes etc?

Didnt read the whole Tread.

But im against censoreship, not shure if this is already possible, but may a solution would be, to have the possibility to disable the right to write posts for some users.
So may a "simple" treadspecivic "ignore-list" could make sense if its realy needed?

Im not shure if all newbes knew what this WIP area is about,
And why Skinners Post WIP treads here, may the reason is also different from Skinner to Skinner
Some simply want to show what there doing, Others maby Post Ideas to see if there is enoth Public interest to share there Work, others would like to have feedback about there Layout, others maby are happy about requests what else to add to the Skin, and so on..

I think at last its up to the Skinner to tell his "followers" or the interested people what his up to.

I understand that it can be annoying to read some silly questions like mentioned in the starter.
and have People try do make pressure.
A answer for a question "when will it be released" could be "as soon i think its time to" or what ever, or just ignore such questions

Its realy sad to see what happen to the ftv tread.
(This post was last modified: 2015-03-19 15:31 by Rantanplan-1.)
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Hitcher Offline
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Post: #30
(2015-03-19 14:41)jjd-uk Wrote:  The Team is open to anything that makes the lives of the skinners developing here easier.

Would changing the structure and the posting permissions of this part of the forum help at all? or is everyone happy to leave it as it is? or leave as is with amended forum rules & increased moderation?

I'm not exactly sure what's possible, but it maybe possible to change the structure to something like:

Skin Ideas subforum - An area open to everyone for posting of ideas, concepts, mockups etc.

WIP Concepts subforum - An area where only members of the skinners group can post and would be read only to everyone else. This is for early work that's deemed not ready for end users but the skinner may want to make it public to exchange ideas with other skinners, also having this early work public can act as a source of inspiration to other skinners even if it ends up abandoned.

WIP Testing subforum - An area that only members of the skinners group can create new threads and but anyone can post. Once the skinner deems something has progressed enough or wants end user feedback they create a new thread in this forum for beta testing and general user feedback.

I like the idea of a new structure and who can create threads in them, but I don't think it's necessary to stop anyone from posting in them either.
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