[DaveBlake]

Tolriq I didn't create the current musicbrainz tag processing, and I am not going to try and justify it, but I can understand what it does and why. I don't feel a rush to fix anything, but I do want to be sure that I have explained things clearly and accurately (for everyone) so here are some answers to your questions.

So if I had first scanned an album with artist The Corrs without MBID then scanned a new one with the MBID what happens ? (Like 2 different albums)

2 artists are created ? (Was the case before) Or there's a name match and the MBID is added to the first artist ?
What about different artists with the same name ? (Rare but pretty sure this exists)

The artist table entry created for the first album gets updated when the second album is scanned to include an MBID for that artist. Only one artist is created, and this is how it has been for some time.

IMO this is a good thing. Without MBID Kodi has to assume that artists are uniquely identified by name only. Adding MBID whenever it can means that future additions can identify artists with more certainty using the MBID.

Yes you do get artists with the same name e.g. John Williams the classical guitarist and John Williams the conductor and film music composer (Star Wars etc.). Without MBID they are treated as one person. Use MBID for only one of them they are still treated as one person. To differentiate between them and separate their music you have to tag all tracks from all albums for both of them with the approriate artist MBID.

About artist again :

MUSICBRAINZ ARTIST ID = "acf6c776-d0f6-4239-b5a2-a45a613ffa52"
MUSICBRAINZ ALBUM ARTIST = "he Corrs"

So why does Kodi creates the artist with The Corrs and set the artist id from MBID?

IMO this : "Song processed first and song.strArtists = "The Corrs", and entry in the artist table is created from the artist tags with artist.strArtist = "The Corrs" and artist.MBID = "acf6c...". " is not logical when you say that MB have presidence.

In that case all MB tags should have presidence and not a mix with the normal tag for name and the MBID for the id as this leads to the mix.

Nowhere in the TAGS there's a link between The Corrs and the MBID.

The tag pairs that go together (as an "artist credit") are

Code:

[ARTIST, MUSICBRAINZ ARTIST ID]  and
[MUSICBRAINZ ALBUM ARTIST (or ALBUMARTIST), MUSICBRAINZ ALBUM ARTIST ID]

The song pair are processed first, creating artist table entry with "The Corrs", "acf6c776-d0f6-4239-b5a2-a45a613ffa52". The album pair then only matches on MBID and finds the artist.

There is a clear link in the tags between "The Corrs" and the MBID. Historically tagging for album artist is messy, ID3 doesn't have an ALBUMARTIST tag in the way that FLAC does so TPE2 (intended to be conductor) was used. Musicbrainz/Picard offer a MUSICBRAINZ ALBUM ARTIST tag as a replacement, but many use ALBUMARTIST

My point is that ok the files are messed up, but Kodi should have created 2 albums and 2 artists and use all MB data for one and none for the other.

I don't agree. Mostly the update of artists without MBID by adding it when music for that artist with MBID tags is scanned is accurate, useful and painless. If the tags for the album had been consistent you would not have noticed any thing, and if you later used a scraper it would have accurately return info about the Corrs.

Current mix is incomplete and it's hard for users to understand what TAG is used when, there's no point to have perfect MB data if an invalid normal TAG value can overwrite those.

Should be either MB > All or All > MB.

I think that the tag logic should be clearly documented, and we could benefit from a tagging guide for users too.

But I don't see the processing as incomplete, and normal tag data does not overwrite Musicbrainz tags. Tag accurately and Kodi delivers.

But none of this belongs in a discussion of my JSON fix

[Tolriq]

Well I did see the change with your PR (Mainly because of fresh start as usually I update the database so would not have noticed a change in Jarvis)

Anyway with your detailed explanation all seems more or less logical due to how Kodi handle tags and history of tags (like album artist), but from non expert point of view (Yet I'm not a complete noob :p) this look like a total mess

So yes not related to JSON fix at all but clearly help me understand more why so many users reported to me that they do not scan library as they do not get wanted results

Proper documentation and tools to help them fix or ignore mbid will be mandatory to have more or them switch to library.

[DaveBlake]

Out of interest how did that Corrs album get so oddly tagged? Not just some tracks without Musicbrainz tag, but those with them have the first character missing.

There are numerous tools to view and fix tags, I don't think that facility needs to be part of Kodi. Documentation would be useful for the engaged and interested minority, the majority just want it to happen by magic anyway. Where in the wiki would it belong?

Users may well have told you they don't scan to library because it "doesn't do what they want", but unless we have a report how the music files were tagged, and users willing to do their bit and fix their messed up data, then I don't see how anyone can help them. Accurate tagging is not hard. A tool to capture just tag file headers and make small test files to pass about (rather than the actual music files) would be a useful diognostic tool. Maybe we need a specific music support forum, with a "what's wrong with my tagging" corner?

Now some people want to develop a system that doesn't need tags at all, that's lovely and maybe do what the masses want, meanwhile I am out to provide a rich system for those people that have tagged their music or don't want to run online.

[Tolriq]

I have no idea how it finished messed up like that

But about users I do know for sure most are lazy, so you won't make them retag their 20k song collection all pirated content

The very few users that have converted their physical media all have them properly tagged.

Tagging is useful and powerful but the mix with music brainz can confuse users (Even me had no idea I had some content with some music brainz tags).

Anyway Kodi strength is to allow tons of possible things, just need to fit the silent majority with possible advanced features and be sure that too powerful features hard to manage for majority does not fear them by doing things by default.

[jjd-uk]

That's why I've always thought there should be a very explicit "use Musicbrainz" on/off switch like there is for tags, I know there is the override with online data switch, but I've never been sure exactly what that does.

[DaveBlake]

But about users I do know for sure most are lazy, so you won't make them retag their 20k song collection all pirated content

And they can just go on using file view (as long as someone else doesn't break it).
They are lazy, and that is fine, I don't care about them not using the Kodi music library.

The very few users that have converted their physical media all have them properly tagged.

But those that do should be richly rewarded
That's where I am at, I so want to get more tags handled by Kodi and passed out through JSON.

Tagging is useful and powerful but the mix with music brainz can confuse users (Even me had no idea I had some content with some music brainz tags).

About that, what is the confusion? I can't see how Musicbrainz tags get there unless you tag them that way. The fairies don't do it
I guess some tag software tools don't show the Musicbrainz tags by default so it becomes hidden. Tag with them knowing what they are for, or don't, where does the half done / half not mess come from?

Anyway Kodi strength is to allow tons of possible things...

Compeletly agree.

.. just need to fit the silent majority with possible advanced features and be sure that too powerful features hard to manage for majority does not fear them by doing things by default.

Got a bit lost in translation there. Say again? I think you are saying we need to do some hand-holding to get users using the library. My question is since it does need decent tagging, how much work is worth if users aren't going to meet half way and take responsibility for tagging if told how to do it?

Edit: seems I have a live example here. Wish there was a quick way to see his tags.

[DaveBlake]

That's why I've always thought there should be a very explicit "use Musicbrainz" on/off switch like there is for tags, I know there is the override with online data switch, but I've never been sure exactly what that does.

Again, that is talking as if the Musicbrainz tags spontaneously appear in the files. I just don't get it.

The "off" facility is simply not tagging your files with those tags. No one is forcing you to add those tags, but if you do then Kodi is going to use them. It is a bit like tagging music with the wrong artist name, and then complaining Kodi uses that name in the library rather than the correct name shown on the CD cover.

Explicit off/on would just be another option that most users don't use or know what its for. Left off they miss out on some of the richness, for example being able to separate artists with the same name, or accurate scraping of extra info. Left on it may show up if the tags have been messed up, then they can be fixed.

BTW "override with online data" switch has nothing to do with using MBIDs. If enabled then some scraped from online artist and album data can replace some data that may have be scanned in from tags or loaded from NFO. It is not meant to do that when disabled but sometimes does anyway.

[jjd-uk]

That's the thing, I knew exactly how things worked before the MBID library rework, since I've never been quite sure as the documentation is rather sketchy so I play safe and ensure my music never has MBID's and leave ""override with online data" off.

Anyway getting way off topic for here now.

Getting back on topic, something that might help you push this in quicker should be waiting in your mail box if you haven't seen it already.

[DaveBlake]

That's the thing, I knew exactly how things worked before the MBID library rework, since I've never been quite sure as the documentation is rather sketchy so I play safe and ensure my music never has MBID's and leave ""override with online data" off.

OK, where should/could tags and their useage be documented? MBIDs seem to have got some bad press, and some users have obviously got in a mess with them, but there really is nothing to fear!

Getting back on topic, something that might help you push this in quicker should be waiting in your mail box if you haven't seen it already.

Ah, you would possibly be refering to my elevation to team member

I haven't discovered what my new powers will be, not sure they are available yet, but I will endevour to use them wisely.

[DaveBlake]

OK PR:8306 has now merged, so consistent artist data (and MBIDs) should come out of JSON GetAlbums and GetSongs in the Jarvis nightlies.

An issue has been spotted with the format of album and artist Mood, since PR 8012 it is being retruned as a "/" separated string rather than an array of values as documented. I will have a look at that if I have time.