[meridius]

Hi all

I have been using XBMC 12.2 for 5 years now and now find that I need to upgrade to kodi 16.1 as there some new formats that are not supported by XBMC.

I installed kodi 16.1 on windows 7 pro and tried it out but having problems with video playback and kodi menus been washed out and need some advice since xbmc works fine.

TV = Pioneer lx5090
Amp = Yamaha RX3900
XBMC 12.2 to KODI 16.1
System = ATI card with Windows 7 Pro

Combos I have tried

Test 1
ATI Driver = Colour Pixel Count YCbCr 4:4:4
ATI Driver = Dynamic Range Disabled
Kodi = Limited Colour range disabled.

Menus are black not washed out but video is washed out

Test 2
ATI Driver = Colour Pixel Count YCbCr 4:4:4
ATI Driver = Dynamic Range Disabled
Kodi = Limited Colour range enabled.

Menus are washed out and also video playback is washed out

Test 3
ATI Driver = Colour Pixel Count YCbCr 4:4:4
ATI Driver = Dynamic Range enabled set to limited
Kodi = Limited Colour range Disabled.

Menus are black not washed out but video is washed out

Test 4
ATI Driver = Colour Pixel Count YCbCr 4:4:4
ATI Driver = Dynamic Range enabled set to limited
Kodi = Limited Colour range enabled.

Menus are washed out and also video playback is washed out


Test 5
ATI Driver = Colour Pixel Count YCbCr 4:4:4
ATI Driver = Dynamic Range Enabled set to Full
Kodi = Limited Colour range enabled.

Menus are washed out and video playback is NOT washed out

Test 6
ATI Driver = Colour Pixel Count YCbCr 4:4:4
ATI Driver = Dynamic Range Enabled set to Full
Kodi = Limited Colour range disabled.

Menus are not washed out and video playback is NOT washed out

So test 6 seems to work but the problem is Video is not designed to be set to full and should be set to limited and I can not seem to get this to work.

I have read abit about how to setup the cards and was wanting to know which is the best pixel count setting I should be using as I have 4 options ?

YCbCr pixel format 4:4:4 (default)
YCbCr pixel format 4:2:2
RGB 4:4:4 pixel format studio(Limited)
RGB 4:4:4 pixel format PC standard (Full RGB)

is there something in there I should be using.

thanks

[meridius]

Hi all

Had a few hours playing with this and found out two settings work but I don't know which to use for the best.

Option 1
ATI GFX card driver settings
YCbCr pixel format 4:4:4 (default)
Dynamic Range: Enabled and set to Full

Kodi Settings
Limited Colour range disabled.

TV HDMI Settings
YCbCr 4:4:4 format

menu and videos blacks perfect

but if I use these settings I get the same results

Option 2
ATI GFX card driver settings
RGB 4:4:4 pixel format PC standard (Full RGB)
Dynamic Range: Enabled and set to Full

Kodi Settings
Limited Colour range Enabled.

TV HDMI Settings
RGB 4:4:4 format

menu and videos blacks perfect

What I did notice is if I left the HDMI tv colour setting to Auto it would not select the right colour range so I had to manually select the right one.

so the question is which one do I use option 1 or option 2 to get the best picture true to the source.

I seem to get the same results with option 1 and 2 but one is using full range and the other is using limited I think ? any help on this

[PatK]

You didn't make clear if you're multi-tasking with two displays up or just flipping between? If you're trying to balance between a PC & TV always configure the TV using some sort of 'Calibration' software, get it optimum (you always want the best picture possible for your media) and then configure the monitor using it's hardware settings, monitors don't have the kind of colour range than most modern flat panel TV's have.

This wiki is pretty comprehensive and should explain some of the details Video levels and color space (wiki) but it looks like option 2 is your set-up, although what works for you ,of course is the best.

[meridius]

Hi there

In my post 1 it tells you what hardware and system I am using

TV = Pioneer lx5090
Amp = Yamaha RX3900
XBMC 12.2 to KODI 16.1
System = ATI card with Windows 7 Pro


no muliti monitor setup its just a sinlge tv.with a pc on it using it as a HTPC setup. I have read that post and used the mp4 but if you see my post 2 I get the same results on both settings with the colour space. When I test the black clipping mp4 file I get flashing on 17 and above with both settings in post 2, but as in post two one is set to full and the other is limited.

I don't know which to use for the best or if they should be different as I am getting the same results with the test pattern with full and limited.

I don't know if putting the GFX card into RGB or YCbCr is better ? I need some guidance on this. as in the link you gave me seems to think that

3.Limited, Full, Limited -- Best option for embedded video player as there is zero video content scaling during the Y'CbCr --> RGB color space transformation. BtB & WtW are preserved to make calibration easier. If using a Desktop it will look overly dark

so is that

kodi =limited option enabled
GFX driver = setting 1 ynamic range Full and option 2: pixel format 4:4:4
TV set to Limited

but heres the thing there is RGB and Y'CbCr settings on the GFX for 4:4:4 and that's the same for the TV to

just trying to get the right settings for this.

[meridius]

any help on this as I want to upgrade to kodi but I don't know what's for the best. ?

[crawfish]

I don't know if putting the GFX card into RGB or YCbCr is better ? I need some guidance on this. as in the link you gave me seems to think that

3.Limited, Full, Limited -- Best option for embedded video player as there is zero video content scaling during the Y'CbCr --> RGB color space transformation. BtB & WtW are preserved to make calibration easier. If using a Desktop it will look overly dark

so is that

kodi =limited option enabled
GFX driver = setting 1 ynamic range Full and option 2: pixel format 4:4:4
TV set to Limited

but heres the thing there is RGB and Y'CbCr settings on the GFX for 4:4:4 and that's the same for the TV to

just trying to get the right settings for this.

Don't use the graphics card YCbCr setting, because this causes it to compress all output to 16-235 just before it puts it on the wire. It requires video to first be expanded to 0-255 for this final compression to work out, and you lose color range for the desktop.

kodi =limited option enabled
GFX driver = setting 1 ynamic range Full and option 2: pixel format 4:4:4
TV set to Limited

Those are the optimal settings for video playback with pixel format RGB 4:4:4 (not YCbCr 4:4:4). Kodi's UI will even be correct, because it adjusts itself when you enable its limited range option. However, the desktop and other programs will have crushed blacks and whites, because they're outputting 0-255 to a TV that's treating 16 as black and 235 as white. This levels mismatch has never interfered with my usage of my HTPC, but then I'm not playing games on it, doing photo touchups, or other color-critical work. I'm also not using a web browser and viewing Youtube videos and the like on it, which I assume would suffer from the levels mismatch. I do also use Windows Media Center for DVR purposes, and it's just fine with this setup. Although its UI suffers from the levels mismatch, it actually looks better to me with the darker colors. Or maybe I'm just used to it.

ETA: I just realized you're moving to Kodi 16.1. There are bugs with the 16 release that caused myself and others to go back to 15. See these threads for more on that:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=261421

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=218274

[meridius]

Thanks for the help.

I will try these settings and post back. I am sure I was getting ok settings with kodi 16.1 when testing with the pattern test videos.

I will try some settings out and let you know

I can see blinking lines 17-25, but between 2-16 nothing is blinking/flashing (also if i rise the brightness of tv to 100%)

Is this right ?

[crawfish]

As long as your TV isn't clipping BTB, you should be able to see 2-16 by raising TV Brightness with these settings, assuming pixel format is RGB and not YCbCr:

kodi =limited option enabled
GFX driver = setting 1 ynamic range Full and option 2: pixel format 4:4:4
TV set to Limited

I know I do with Kodi 15.2 and my Nvidia cards.

[donbrew]

Have you gone to settings>system>display and reset the Monitor? It defaults to VGA/DESKTOP, if you have a HDMI TV it needs to be changed along with the resolution.

My other computer is windows 10 Pro (used to be Win 7 ultimate) with an old ATI hd 4350 card, I have never seen way to do all of those settings you are fiddling with. Or, needed to.

Maybe you are over thinking?

[meridius]

The settings are all in the still gfx card drivers. Not overthinking just wanted to get the right output to get the best possible picture since I have a good high end setup and don't want to watch movies with a sub par image if I can get it like a blu ray player

I am going to try these settings out this weekend.

[meridius]

As long as your TV isn't clipping BTB, you should be able to see 2-16 by raising TV Brightness with these settings, assuming pixel format is RGB and not YCbCr:

kodi =limited option enabled
GFX driver = setting 1 ynamic range Full and option 2: pixel format 4:4:4
TV set to Limited

I know I do with Kodi 15.2 and my Nvidia cards.

Had a quick look but will be sorting out this weekend as I will have more time but anything under 17 there is no flashing bands just pure black, I did not realise these needed to be flashing to as I thought 17 and up should be just have flashing bars

[meridius]

Hi all

Well did some playing today and wanted to report back to see what you think

I set my ATI driver to Full Dynamic range 255 and set the colour space to RGB 4:4:4.

Now I put my tv in full mode and also left the kodi setting Limited Colour range Disabled.

Kodi menus where fine no change there as well as pc desktop and then I tried the 1-Black Clipping.mp4 video and it seems it was fine as 17-25 bars where just flashing which it what it should be.

Heres the thing everything that I have read tells you to enable the kodi limited range, so I did just that and now what happens is the menus in kodi are washed out and so is the video but I can correct this by going into my tv settings and changing it from full to limited and now the kodi menus are back to normal and the video bars 17-25 are just flashing and no washed out images.

now heres the question I get the same results if I leave everything to full and disable limited in the kodi settings as I do if I enable it and change my tv settings to limited, I get the same 17 and above flashing bars in the 1-Black Clipping.mp3 video.

How can this be as I thought the whole point in setting the system up to limited so that you get the best video ? I would of thought there would of been some difference in the test video but as I can see I can reproduce the same 17-25 and above bar flashing in full and limited.

so am I doing something wrong still ? how can I get the same results with changing two settings and getting the same results in full and limited ?

also I read here http://kodi.wiki/view/%20Video%20levels%...or%20space
**NOTE: There is a limitation of the VAAPI Hardware Decoder where it converts to Full video levels despite setting Kodi to use limited. To get limited video content to output from Kodi, you must disable hardware decoding in Video Settings for the time being

this does not happen in my case as leaving hardware on or off gives me the same results in the black bar test videos as long as I set my my tv to limited?


another question is it not possible to just activate limited when enabling limited option in kodi when playing videos back and not touch the menus leaving them in full ? so this means you can leave your tv set to auto and it should in theory auto change to the limited option on its own when you playback a video or are tvs not that smart and could cause more problems ?

hope someone can help on this

thanks

[brazen1]

I set my ATI driver to Full Dynamic range 255 and set the colour space to RGB 4:4:4.
Now I put my tv in full mode and also left the kodi setting Limited Colour range Disabled.
Kodi menus where fine no change there as well as pc desktop and then I tried the 1-Black Clipping.mp4 video and it seems it was fine as 17-25 bars where just flashing which it what it should be.

There is nothing wrong with your settings. This is how I set mine also. Many will argue with you though. I use an Nvidia GPU with Color Depth settings. Not sure if ATI has them but if you do, you should set these as well. During playback from any player, minimize it and open your GPU control panel and set 8, 10, or 12 bits. You will notice different titles allow higher color ranges. It's set and forget.

Heres the thing everything that I have read tells you to enable the kodi limited range,

Sometimes the 'Herd mentality' works, sometimes they follow the leader right over the cliff.

so I did just that and now what happens is the menus in kodi are washed out and so is the video but I can correct this by going into my tv settings and changing it from full to limited and now the kodi menus are back to normal and the video bars 17-25 are just flashing and no washed out images.

A little more on this here http://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-th...ssing.html

[crawfish]

How can this be as I thought the whole point in setting the system up to limited so that you get the best video ? I would of thought there would of been some difference in the test video but as I can see I can reproduce the same 17-25 and above bar flashing in full and limited.

That's the expected result. The advantage of Limited Range is that it is passthrough WRT color space expansion and compression. That is, video is encoded with RGB Levels 1-254 with the "must have" range being 16-235, the latter being known as Video Levels. Level 16 is Reference Black, and level 235 is Reference White. Levels 1-15 are "Blacker Than Black" or "BTB", while 236-254 are "Whiter Than White" or "WTW". BTB should never be visible because it is not used in actual content, but it's useful for setting Brightness on the TV in conjunction with test patterns. Some amount of WTW is arguably worth keeping, but you probably wouldn't notice it missing. Now, when you choose Limited range, levels 1-254 are passed to the display without alteration. When you choose Full Range, levels 16-235, the "must have" or Video Levels range, must be expanded to 0-255 (PC Levels), losing BTB and WTW. Ironically, "Limited Range" is actually "fuller" than "Full Range" because it's passthrough in the sense it contains all the levels encoded into the video.

so am I doing something wrong still ? how can I get the same results with changing two settings and getting the same results in full and limited ?

You get the same results when the TV is set to the same range, because the TV is adjusting the levels it considers black and white, 16 and 235 for Limited Range, and 0 and 255 for Full Range. If you crank up Brightness on the TV when using Limited Range, you should see BTB become visible in AVS HD 709 Black Clipping. You will never see that when using Full Range, because those levels are lost in the expansion from 16-235 to 0-255.

For more on levels, see Spears and Munsil.

http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/set...control-2/
http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/set...control-2/
http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/cho...r-space-2/

another question is it not possible to just activate limited when enabling limited option in kodi when playing videos back and not touch the menus leaving them in full ? so this means you can leave your tv set to auto and it should in theory auto change to the limited option on its own when you playback a video or are tvs not that smart and could cause more problems ?

TVs don't work like that, except perhaps in conjunction with PC vs HDTV timings, which Kodi's Limited Range option doesn't affect. With my old Sony LCD, WMC sort of worked like that by accident, but it was a bad bug as the TV would blank out and flip between timings every time the 29/59 bug occurred. The solution was to choose an Nvidia Control Panel option to force the card into HDTV timings at all times, instead of flipping between PC for desktop and WMC UI and HDTV for video playback. Another disadvantage to sending the TV PC Timings was that basically all the TV video controls became unavailable.

To sum up, and assuming all things not mentioned being equal:

1. Choose Limited Range for video if you want passthrough WRT levels. Most consumer devices like streamers, BD players, etc, use Limited Range by default, so it's a good choice if you're passing everything through an AVR that has a single HDMI output, meaning it goes to one TV input, for which you must select one range or the other and calibrate for it. Unlike my 2008 model Sony BD player, my 2015 Sony BD player doesn't even have a Full Range output option. The downside to configuring the TV for Limited Range is that it crushes desktop blacks and whites, as the desktop is still in 0-255. The computer is still completely usable, but games, photo viewing, etc will suffer.

2. Choose Full Range for video if you want consistency between desktop and video, that is, 0-255 for everything. The downsides are loss of BTB and WTW, plus possible inconsistency with other devices.

The one thing that is constant for both is that the card should be configured to output RGB 0-255 or "Full Range" as its overall output option. This is distinct from the card's video options, which ideally, should be left at whatever they call "Let the video player decide."

[meridius]

@ crawfish

You said.

You get the same results when the TV is set to the same range, because the TV is adjusting the levels it considers black and white, 16 and 235 for Limited Range, and 0 and 255 for Full Range. If you crank up Brightness on the TV when using Limited Range, you should see BTB become visible in AVS HD 709 Black Clipping. You will never see that when using Full Range, because those levels are lost in the expansion from 16-235 to 0-255.

I will check this out and see if I get the bars flashing under 17 when I turn the brightness up on my tv and if there flashing in limited and full.

Also what is this bug in kodi 16.1 about turning off gfx hardware as I tried this and did not notice any difference is it hardware related as I use ati and older drivers. And will this bug be fixed in kodi 17

I am just trying to get to grips with kodi 16 as I am using xbmc 12.2 as I never needed to upgrade until now. Is there image improvements in kodi 16 and 17 compared to xbmc 12. ?

Thanks