[jahpraiseherb]

Two things that have to be noted though:

1. XBMC is now a cross-platform software and Team-XBMC aim to keep it that way, XBMC should always look and feel the same no matter on which underlying operating-system you are running it on, (sure skins/themes can make XBMC look differently but any skin/theme will look exactly the same on all platforms). If one design or layout improvement is brought to XBMC on one of the platforms then that same improvement will be ported to all XBMC platforms.

The thing is this is exactly the opposite of what platanito21 is saying (if i understand correctly), and I agree with him. Now I am just a humble user, however IMO the best cross platform software is not one that 'looks the same' on all platforms, but one that leverages each platform's unique GUI technology, whilst staying true to the features of the underlying app.

Take Firefox for example. FF3 has recently changed its GUI on the Mac to use native widgets (as well as utilizing other Mac OS X features) which gives the app a much more appealing 'look and feel' on the Mac platform. The same has been done for the Vista version and linux versions (I think). Before this, Firefox looked the same on all platforms, and frankly, this was a major disadvantage, at least in the eyes of Mac users, who want the app to integrate as well as possible.

Another example would be to compare the bittorrent clients Azureus and Transmission. Where Azureus aims to offer the same user interface on all platforms, Transmission maintains separate guis for each platform (Cocoa for OS X, GTK+ for Linux), whilst sharing the underlying libTransmission core.

Mac OS X has some fantastics graphics/GUI APIs which could really make XBMC on the Mac into something special. This doesn't mean you have to lose underlying functionality (ie be the best media centre software bar none), but rather just adapt it to the Mac 'way'.

I hope all this makes sense, and I haven't sounded like a complete idiot.

[Gamester17]

@jahpraiseher, we are not on the same page in regards to what XBMC really is.

IMO the best cross platform software is not one that 'looks the same' on all platforms, but one that leverages each platform's unique GUI technology, whilst staying true to the features of the underlying app.

While that holds absolutely true for desktop applications like Firefox you have to try to understand that XBMC is not designed to be a desktop application, XBMC is a media center, (a media center is not the same concept as a desktop application).

XBMC is designed on purpose to be the only GUI running on your hardware, you should not need to know what the underlying operating-system XBMC is running on-top of (you should even need to know that there is an operating-system there at all). Also understand that XBMC is a GUI-engine on its own and does not need (nor is it even meant to be able to use) the GUI engine of the underlying operating-system. The user experience should be that XBMC is the only, front-end interface on the machine it runs on, (kind like a stand-alone DVD-player, a concept that you may be more familiar with).

Currently the wikipedia definition of a media center: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_center

The term media center refers either to a dedicated computer appliance or to a specialized personal computer software, both of which are adapted for playing various kinds of media (music, movies, photos etc.). A media center may also allow watching DVD movies and watching and recording television broadcasts.

You are better of comparing XBMC to Windows Media Center or Front Row, none of them look like the underlying operating-system that they run on, ...sure they both use the underlying services that the operating-system and its media applications provide (Windows Media Center connect to WMP database, and Front Row connects to the iTunes/iPhoto databases) but the GUI does not really have the look and feel of the operating-system that it is running on. ...now please refrain from bringing up in this specific topic-thread that XBMC should also be able to connect to WMP/iTunes/iPhoto databases, those are separate requests and are also platform-independent suggestions as it could be done over the network as a front-end/client to back-end/server setup, (please search the feature suggestion forum if you are interested in discussing this as there are already separate topic-threads about it).

PS! This discussion has nothing to do with graphics or layout design, XBMC has a very capable skinning-engine so you able practically able to make XBMC look like anything you like, (hence the wast number of clone skins out there for XBMC that make XBMC look almost like an exact replica of other multimedia software such as Apple Front Row, Windows Media Center Edition, MediaPortal, Meedio/MeediOS, HDeeTV, Kaleidescape, Xbox 360 blades).

[platanito21]

Thank you jahpraiseherb for understanding what I'm talking about. I have no interest in changing any of the underlying features of xbmc. I just feel it can be better adapted for "the os x way of doing things" so that it feels more familiar to mac users. Those two examples are exactly the way I feel about it. I've used Azureus and although it has plenty of customizable features, I don't feel that they even thought about how a mac user interacts with their software and I ended up using Transmission exclusively (though it could use a few more settings and I have no interest in xbmc being dumbed down). But from a ui standpoint they hit it right on the money. You don't even have to think about how to use it because everything is exactly where u'd expect it to be and feels intuitive. I didn't get that feeling when I first started using xbmc for os x. If you guys want xbmc to be exactly the same on every platform then that is your right since you guys developed it but I think that way of looking at it is limiting yourself and your creativity (which is what I think Elan was feeling when he ultimately made the decision to fork). But I really don't want to get into all of that. I've realized that this discussion is pointless here. I'll give this whole ui thing some thought and discuss it at a later date if I think it can add anything to the development of this software. Its sad that you guys keep trying to shut down this discussion because I was never even really pointing this discussion towards you guys. I simply want the mac community to start discussing what kind of changes they might like to see in the OS X version to make it a little more Mac-ish. If this is really how you guys plan to approach the OS X version that you guys will be doing then i whole-heartedly wish you the best of luck with that.

@jahpraiseherb thanks for voicing your opinion and providing those examples. Its all I was asking for in this forum.

[platanito21]

@Gamester17

I don't think you understand mac users very much. We LOVE our OS and all the apps that run on it and we WISH that all software were more like apple software. Frontrow might not look exactly like any other apple software but it behaves exactly the way we'd expect it to because its designed with the mac user in mind. my only problem with it is that it doesn't support all video formats. You completely missed what jahpraiseherb was trying to get at with his examples. It has nothing to do with desktop vs media center apps. Its about the intuitive feel you get when your using it (whether with a mouse, keyboard, or remote).

[jahpraiseherb]

XBMC is designed on purpose to be the only GUI running on your hardware, you should not need to know what the underlying operating-system XBMC is running on-top of (you should even need to know that there is an operating-system there at all). Also understand that XBMC is a GUI-engine on its own and does not need (nor is it even meant to be able to use) the GUI engine of the underlying operating-system. The user experience should be that XBMC is the only, front-end interface on the machine it runs on, (kind like a stand-alone DVD-player, a concept that you may be more familiar with).

I totally understand your point that XBMC, being media centre software, will have an inherently different interface. I suppose what I was also getting at, was that things like Core Animation (for example, there are others) are unique technologies on OS X which would be awesome to leverage. Now I'm not saying that Core Animation/Mac is the best, simply that it is present, and that rather than trying to have a one size fits all solution, you should leverage the APIs on the platform. If you write in Cocoa you get a whole bunch of stuff for free. I'm sure its the same if you use the APIs other platforms. Now if i'm totally wrong, then sorry for wasting everyone's time.

[davilla]

As a full time Apple developer who also does other platforms, I'm at a loss to understand why Core Animation (or other APIs) would make the OSX interface/look and feel better. Most of these APIs have just appeared in 10.5. Are you saying that all previous versions of OSX had a crappy GUI and the look and feel was bad? What about the AppleTV, it does not have Core Animation, it's a 10.4.7-8 flavor. It does not even have accelerated Quartz animation.

I think the point that the XBMC team is asking, is to be specific about what you don't like about the existing interface. Saying it's not good because it does not use Core Animation is way too general. Saying it's not Mac like is also too general. Spell it out like I did below about adding a media share. Otherwise it's identical to saying "Ford trucks are better", "Why", "Well, they are just better".

I've worked with the Apple user interface all the way back to the very first System 1.0 and this includes some that users have never seen. The look and feel has nothing to do with the programming APIs and everything to do with how you use the APIs you have. Does Cocoa make is easer, maybe but lots of programs that run on OSX are still Carbon and they still have that good look and feel.

[Canuck73]

@platanito21

I've been using a Mac for seven years and have never owned a PC. So, I agree with you that XBMC does not have a Mac-feel.

However I agree with the developers that it shouldn't have to feel like a Mac - it's a cross-platform application that should feel the same no matter what operating system you're running it on. Although, I do think some system "tweaking" is important. (i.e. - recently added Mac remote and sleep support, and I'd love to see a system shutdown function)

But a more Mac-like experience is possible. There are a couple skins you can use that are more Mac flavoured. There's a:

Front Row skin herehttp://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=24617

An apple-theme skin here http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=33100

And a previewed new skin here, which I feel is most Mac-like and I can't wait for it to be ready: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=33563

[Gamester17]

We LOVE our OS and all the apps that run on it and we WISH that all software were more like apple software. Frontrow might not look exactly like any other apple software but it behaves exactly the way we'd expect it to because its designed with the mac user in mind.

@platanito21, you do not seem to have grasped the concept that this is not about navigation or layout, it is not about navigation/layout because XBMC already have a very flexible GUI skinning-engine and the nature of this very flexible GUI skinning-engine is that navigation is not hardcoded, so just by making a new skin or modifying an existing skin you can make the navigation act differently, thus making it not only look but also feel differently.

Have you tried the xTV, AEON, or MC360 skins (must simply must try xTV and AEON)?, if so then please compare those to the default PM3 (Project Mayhem III) skin, now you should see and understand that it is not only the look that is are different between them all but navigation as well.

The look and feel has nothing to do with the programming APIs and everything to do with how you use the APIs you have.

Please try to understand what davilla is saying here, the API that is XBMC's GUI skinning-engine is already there, all you as a skinner need to do is use it, you do not need to be a programmer to learn how to skin (yes it is more advanced than a simple theme but it is just XML, think of making a skin like making a webpage/website, you can make it look and feel like almost anything you want, so if you can learn how to make a website in HTML then you can learn how to make a skin for XBMC in XML).
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=Skinning_XBMC
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=Skinning_Tutorials
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=Skinning_Manual
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=Category:Skin_Development

So again, if you find a specific feature or function that is missing from XBMC, (be in in the skinning-engine or a larger feature/function), then please write down a detailed and specific explanation of how and what that feature/function should be, then post a proper feature request in the feature suggestion forum to open up that specific feature/function for discussion.