[minimalko]

Hi,

I have couple of more suggestions for skinning engine improvement if I may. I list them in order:

1.Would it be technicaly possible to make the panel orientation both vertical and horizontal at the same time? This would allow proper wall view where users could scroll to any direction, removing the boundaries that limited all the wall views so far.

2.Would it be possible to have the focus position fixed in panel? Basicaly what I am after is something like "Wrappanel". It would be great if the focus position could be set by Container(id).Row(nr) or Container(id).Column(nr) or both at the same time.

3.As far as I know it is not possible to render image between itemlayout and focusedlayout in containers. This is becoming a great deal with designs (walls, showcases etc.) where skinner wants to cover not focused items with gradients/vignette and highlight the focused item only. For reference see phyek's wall here http://www.phyletik.com/misc/xbmc/xbmc3.jpg.This just can't be done currently right?

I guess I am aiming this to jmarshall himself as he is the interface guru. In case 1. or 2. are to be dissmised straight away, no big deal, but consider at least 3. please.

Thanks a lot,

Mat

[`Black]

Not exactly clear what you mean with the 3. point but you can use different images for the focused item, so it's no problem to have it like it's on the screen you posted.

[minimalko]

Not exactly clear what you mean with the 3. point but you can use different images for the focused item, so it's no problem to have it like it's on the screen you posted.

Thanks for input,

I am aware of the fact you can use images for the focused item, place the vignette before the poster in focused layout. Sadly it doesnt work as the coordinates (posx and posy) of the vignette become variable as you move through the panel. You don't really want the vignette to jump everytime you move through items.

As far as I remember djh managed this in original aeon by having the itemlayout semitransparent, but it really wasn't the same thing. Unless I am missing something it is not fully possible at the moment.

[Jezz_X]

1 and 2 ) how are you supposed to leave the panel to get to other options like changing the view of selecting a page control if every direction just takes you to another panel item.

3) allreadu doable just by using overlays on the non focus item and a overlay over the whole thing. but really wont look right unless 1 and 2 are done which brings me back to that point

[minimalko]

heh thats actually very valid point about 1. and 2. somehow forgot about that. However 3. wont be properly doable without being able to load 1280x720 image on top of itemlayout but under focusedlayout item.

[rwparris2]

1.Would it be technicaly possible to make the panel orientation both vertical and horizontal at the same time? This would allow proper wall view where users could scroll to any direction, removing the boundaries that limited all the wall views so far.

1 and 2 ) how are you supposed to leave the panel to get to other options like changing the view of selecting a page control if every direction just takes you to another panel item.

As long as it doesn't wrap this should be fine, right? Left-edge or top-edge should bring you to the controls.
Having said that I hate wall views... so, whatever.

[jmarshall]

A "fixed" panel (i.e. similar to the fixed list) would be possible but ofcourse you need to fix the size in at least one direction. In fact, with slide animations based on where the cursor is this is already possible (isn't alaska using something like this for the settings screen?) Your overlay would probably still shuffle around if put in the focused layout, but you could make your vignette transparent in the middle so that the focused object is not obscured and then just put it over the top.

As you've discovered, wrapping is where everything breaks: You can only wrap in one direction (vertical or horizontal) as at some point you need to define when you go from one row (or column) to the next. The best you can do is do a fake-wrap in one direction (i.e. just continually wrap the same k thumbs) and hope things line up nicely in terms of the number of columns and rows so that a wrap in the other direction works. Given the existence of prime numbers, this is not possible to do without a row (or column) with a differing number of items in it, whereby everything breaks.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[minimalko]

1. Ok screw the 1. on second thought it really wouldnt be functional in XBMC traditional manner.

2. Letting the WrapPanel idea be, I still think it would be great to have at least <focusrow> attribute for vertical panel and <focuscolumn> attribute for horizontal panel. This way you could still navigate to the options going up/down edge or left/right edge depending on the panel orientation.

EDIT> The slide animation based on Row or Column position that you suggested always seems to lead to revealing the edge of the panel (no wonder considering how it works). Remember the old Aeons wall? Therefore it is not really a solution I think.

3. Sure there are ways of trying to fake this to an extent. But no method would bring the same results as being able to render the vignette between itemlayout and focusedlayout items. I am sure many skinners allready ran into this problem.

Anyways these are just my ideas, they might seem unimportant to some people. But you never know if you dont try.

Thanks,

M.

[djh_]

The best I've managed along these lines is the current Aeon Wall, which basically involves coming clean and just framing the entire thing within a nice safe bounding box. That basically leaves you with just one layout, of course, and no real sense of the content continuing beyond it. Alaska's the same - even though the Music Wall jogs about to give the impression of flow, it's really just a flashy effect. You still hit the edge and need an arrow prompt to move you on.

The bottom line is that Wall is a de facto part of any modern media centre, especially one with an unlimited number of browsable items. I'm sure when Apple drops its ATV 2 and makes all of us look like complete amateurs, there'll be one in there as well. All we need is a version of the current panel where it pre-emptively loads items in both scrollable directions, not just one. Then you have the flow layout we're all waiting for while preserving the escape-to-menu functionality. A number of skins have this already - they just need that one missing ingredient.

[minimalko]

So I am not alone after all. Escape to menu would be one of the solutions for sure.

I hope noone gets me wrong here. I still think XBMC has by far most flexible skinning engine out there. On the other hand there is still enough space for improvements and new features in the UI area.

I know developers care about functionality more than the actual look of things which is easy to understand, but at the end of the day all the end users care about the most is the UI. Just look at how much fuzz there is around new skins. Sometimes I feel skinners get more credit than people creating the skinning engine, but I guess that just proves my point. Feature requests are often ruled out because they would only provide eye candy but that is what everyone wants.

The list of usefull UI features that XBMC lacks is long (amongst many: blur, saturation, better masking..). All I can do is kindly beg of course. But if noone does the chances they will see daylight are even lower.

Thanks

[djh_]

I agree with your choices there. If the team is to be pushed into adding more luxurious skinning features, they should definitely be those that add to your palette rather than dictate how it's used. Masking is at the top of the list, blur somewhere near. My personal bugbear is that you can't have adjoining labels that align relative to their contents. So if you have a row of textual buttons, the spaces between the strings will always be off. Not being able to switch fonts mid-string is similarly galling, though I'd imagine there's a good reason.

[jmarshall]

There's generally a good reason for everything, but not always

Perhaps some design concepts of exactly how this would end up looking are in order, and how it would function?

It seems to me the best thing is to do the "escape by some other mechanism" idea. Otherwise you always hit the problem of what defines the boundaries, right?

I presume you specify the size of the thing (aka number of items) in one direction at least? How do things repeat? Do I just treat it like a wraplist and just repeat items when I run out? eg with 26 items with a width of 10 it'd be something like:

A B C D E F G H I J
K L M N O P Q R S T
U V W X Y Z A B C D

Then you move left and it goes to:

Z A B C D E F G H I
J K L M N O P Q R S
T U V W X Y Z A B C

Escape then needs to have a dedicated key is then the problem.

Cheers,
Jonathan

[phyek]

I have to echo Minimalko's points, especially 2 and 3.

Although XBMC's skinning engine is relatively flexible compared to other media apps, I still find it very limiting. It's always frustrating to design something and then find out that it just can't be done properly, and work arounds rarely produce great results. In addition to Minimalko's points, and as previously mentioned, advanced masking abilities and color/saturation/blur effects should also be at the top of the list of things to implement, in my opinion.

That said, XBMC is a great program and I'm thankful to the developers for all their work.

[jmarshall]

Can we please keep this thread to the topic at hand?

Cheers,
Jonathan

[minimalko]

Here is a quick scheme of how I think it should work. Personaly, I would prefer the first way (horizontal vertical). It is obvious that a key binding for options would be needed with this container.

Can we please keep this thread to the topic at hand?

Cheers,
Jonathan

Would it make any difference if new thread was started? There is one about blur, as far as I remember there is even a trac request for blur.