Cheap Notebook - alternative solution for HTPC? // Lenovo IdeaPad U450
#1
Lightbulb 
Hello,
I am planning to build a htpc for mostly streaming from my NAS (Thecus N0503).
Important: Low/No Noise, low power consumption, digital audio via HDMI or spdif to Yamaha AVR. Full-HD Samsung LCD-TV. Easy to use.

Possible options are atom@ion1/2 barebones like:
  • Zotac ZBOX HD-ID11 (Atom D510)
  • Zotac ZBOX HD-ND01 (Atom 330)
  • Zotac ZBOX HD-ND02 (Atom 330)
  • Shuttle XS35GT (Atom D510)

Also self-build system with ITX boards:
  • ASRock A330ION
  • Point of View POV/ION330
  • Zotac ION ITX G (Atom 330)
  • Zotac ION ITX D (Atom 330)
  • Zotac ION ITX F (Atom 330)
  • Zotac ION ITX P (Celeron SU2300)
  • ASUS AT5IONT-I (Atom D525)
or yATX boards like
  • ASUS P5Q-EM + Intel Celeron E3300 (socket 775, G45/GMA X4500HD)
  • ASRock H55M/USB3 + Intel Core i3-530 (socket 1156, H55/Clarkdale HD Graphics)
  • Biostar A880G + AMD Athlon II X2 215 (socket AM3, AMD 880G/Radeon HD4250)

A lot of choices, but then I found a low priced Notebook which fits my technical requirements (dual core, low power, hdmi, hd video hardware acceleration):
Lenovo IdeaPad U450
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• Celeron SU2300 2x 1.20GHz
• 2048MB
• 250GB
• Intel GMA X4500HD
• 3x USB 2.0/Gb LAN/WLAN 802.11abg/Bluetooth
• HDMI 4in1 Card Reader (SD/MS/MS Pro/xD)
• 14.1" WXGA glare LED TFT (1366x768)
• Windows 7 Home Premium
• Li-Ionen-Akku (6 Zellen)
• 2.10kg

It costs here in Germany just 339 Euro

What do you think? Is a smooth XBMC@Linux system possible? The display should be closed most of the time, an IR remote (or bluetooth) should fully control the system, including standby (s3?) - at the end, there should be no difference between a normal network player.

A optical digital audio out is missing, but the hdmi should deliver anyway the audio signal to the receiver. What about HD-Audio like Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD? Are there any problems to be expected?

And regarding hd video acceleration - I am not sure, theoretically the x4500HD is possible to process full hd - but there are(were?) linux drivers missing, right? With the new libs from Intel 2010-5-11, the linux acceleration should now be supported, or just for the clarkdale-on-die graphics? *littlebitconfused* because everywhere you can read that the x4500hd does support full hw acceleration (> Wikipedia GMA).


Thank you for replies Smile
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#2
That notebook won't even come close to playing 1080p. Maybe low bitrate stuff, but not Blu Ray rips. You don't want a notebook for a HTPC anyway- their heat design is not made for that constant high end use.

The best notebooks for playback are Nvidia based, although ATI cards 4xxx or greater work well with Windows. Intel GPUs always suck, as they have for over a decade now. They technically support x264 decoding, but that generation (x4500- a low end GPU) is still maybe at best a fifth as powerful as ION1.

I like my ION Netbook (HP Mini 311) for playing 1080p, but even then I only use it for a portable XBMC box when on vacation. For full time the extra screen (and messing with it) adds a layer of pain not needed.

The best XBMC HTPCs right now for the money are ION boxes. Of the options I like these:

Zotac ZBOX HD-ND01 (Atom 330)
Zotac ZBOX HD-ND02

I will confirm now (since I have a similar Zotac mobo) that these will play any x264 file you can throw at them.

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#3
poofyhairguy Wrote:That notebook won't even come close to playing 1080p.
With working hardware acceleration (VAAPI), it should definitely be no problem. But that's the question.
Does anybody run XBMC with X4500HD on win7 and can tell something about accelerated video playback in hd?

But you are right, the heating could be a problem, mainly if the display is always closed.
poofyhairguy Wrote:For full time the extra screen (and messing with it) adds a layer of pain not needed.
Do you mean that, XBMC (and linux) has problems to handle the 2 screens? Is it possible to disable completely the internal WXGA screen in favor of the external 1920x1080 output?

The point is, that an Atom330-Ion-based self-made system would probably cost the same as the Lenovo Notebook - and of course the notebook is more flexibel and helds better its value.
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#4
Gumble Wrote:With working hardware acceleration (VAAPI), it should definitely be no problem. But that's the question.
Does anybody run XBMC with X4500HD on win7 and can tell something about accelerated video playback in hd?

I have tried using VAAPI on my x4500HD desktop version, and its terrible. If its gonna work, its gonna work only in Windows 7. You should know that going in. That isn't bad- Windows 7 lacks any multi-screen problem.

Sounds like you really want a HTPC and a netbook, but you only have the money for one. In that case get the netbook and give it a try.

I am very picky with my hardware. For me if it can't play a 20gb 1080p Blu Ray rip its junk, but for others they are happy if it can play a 720p 4GB scene mkv. I know for a fact that CPU is enough for lighter 720p, so maybe you don't need hardware acceleration to be happy.

Just know that in my experience that graphics driver has bad Linux support compared to an Nvidia GPU (and I know, I am a Xorg junkie), and that using a Net/notebook full time for a HTPC is bad for it.

As long as you can accept those limitations and accept the risk that it MIGHT not work for you and you might have to later buy an ION or Boxee box then go for it!

Just please, if you do buy it, let us know how well it plays content in Windows 7. That will help me and others advise people in the future without having to personally mess with that OS.

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#5
Thank you poofyhairguy for your advice Smile

Honestly, I don't really know what I exactly want Wink I do not need a Netbook because I have a 5y old, but still nice Macbook Pro and a Intel-Quad Gaming Machine with recent Nvidia Graphics. My thinking was: why spending 350€ for a Nettop if a 350€ Netbook can do the exact same thing.

I am a IT guy, who likes Do-it-Yourself, who enjoys the actual work building the system as much as the final end product. So I am currently prefering a Nvidia-Based Linux solution.

Basic question: tiny ITX vs upgradable ITX/yATX

Currently for watching digital Pay-TV (Sky Germany) a (DVB-C) Humax Cable-Receiver is used. I like the option to handle digital TV also on the htpc and sell the Humax. But the hardware (DVB-C card, CI-Modul, Alphacrypt-CAM-Modul) would cost even more. But maybe the parts could be bought by ebay bit by bit. The Problem is, that almost all ION-Boards only have PCI-E slots and no more PCI, which is mandatory for a good DVB card.
  • Point of View POV/ION330-1
  • Asus AT3N7A-I
These boards are out of stock.

So, for the "big" solution with VDR, it would probably the best to build a system with dedicated graphics, such as the MSI N210-MD512H (GT218 Chip). But a AM3/S775/S1156 would probably big, much power-consumpting and noisy...

Maybe I should stick with a cheap streaming client like the WD TV Live HD, and wait for "the perfect hdtv" Wink
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#6
Gumble Wrote:Basic question: tiny ITX vs upgradable ITX/yATX

Sounds like you are like me and the thrill of the build is part of the fun. In that case go Mini ITX- its tons of fun and challenging accounting for the small parts.

Quote: The Problem is, that almost all ION-Boards only have PCI-E slots and no more PCI, which is mandatory for a good DVB card.

There are many good USB and PCIe cards. Here is a list of cards that will be supported in the eventual PVR release (aka VDR):

http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVB-C_PCIe_Cards

http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/DVB-C_USB_Devices

Quote:Maybe I should stick with a cheap streaming client like the WD TV Live HD, and wait for "the perfect hdtv" Wink

My friend has a WD TV Plus I have played with a lot. Pretty cool for what it is, but no XBMC.

ION is pretty futureproof. I can play my Blu Ray rips that max the standard with my ION box. Waiting for a perfect solution means never accepting an acceptable one....

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#7
Or... set up one of your other PCs as a TV server containing the DVB card. That would allow you to stick with a small front-end for XBMC and still use DVB.
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#8
Smile 
damn, I accidently cut the power and my posting was gone...

anyway, I think I go for Atom330@ion/G9400 with the digital tv option later.

poofyhairguy Wrote:Sounds like you are like me and the thrill of the build is part of the fun.
yeah, the thrill is great, but sooner or later you get pissed because it will never get "perfect" ;-)

poofyhairguy Wrote:There are many good USB and PCIe cards. Here is a list of cards that will be supported in the eventual PVR release (aka VDR):
...
wow, one pci-e card ;) As far as I have read, everybody is recommending the "old" PCI cards to get the best QAM256 support.
Furthermore I am not sure if the Atom/Ion is the best platform for this: normally the tv provider sends in 1080i, and I have read that the CPU is heavily loaded with the de-interlacing (>1080p). No idea, maybe VDPAU is capible of this too.

Quote:My friend has a WD TV Plus I have played with a lot. Pretty cool for what it is, but no XBMC.
I already had the WD in a (online) shopping cart, but decided to get something better. Thought about Popcorn Hour A-200, C-200, Dune 3.0 ... and that's htpc budget ;)

lloydsmart Wrote:Or... set up one of your other PCs as a TV server containing the DVB card. That would allow you to stick with a small front-end for XBMC and still use DVB.
"Card-sharing" sounds nice - reminds me at the good old DBox2-Neutrino hacking age ;)



What do you think about the A+ Cupid 3 case:
Image
• WxHxD: 220x129x323mm
• extern: 1x 5.25"
• intern: 2x 3.5"
• Front I/O: 2x USB 2.0, 1x Headphone, 1x Microfon, 1x Cardreader (SD/MMC/XD/MS/CF)
• 2.0kg
It costs around 70Eur and take one card (PCI/e) without any riser cards. But comes along with an unnecessary (noname?) 250W PSU.

I'd rather prefer an external passive 60-100W supply like the picuPSU from http://www.mini-box.com
But they are pretty expensive (and out of stock and located in the US)
picoPSU-120 + 80W Adapter Power Kit for $50.
Image
There are several adapters in ebay available, but very expensive :/

I am not sure - I had bad experience with Power supplies in the past and had in the last 10 Years at least 10 PSUs. It seems that the manufacturers finally learn (if you are willing to pay good).
But my htpc budget is limited (200-300Eur without HDD, Mouse, Keyboard).

What do you recommend?

Bigger, but cheaper and with remote:
MS-Tech MC-210, 350W SFX 2.3 45€
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Probably fits good the hifi system:
MS-Tech MC-1200, 350W SFX 2.3 82€
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For the sake of completeness:
A+case Cupid 1 Tiny! 35€ w/o PSU
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A+case Cupid 2 38€ w/o PSU
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#9
A short update - read the whole weekend about htpcs. So much good possibilites to get a htpc - found another "cheap notebook" which X4500HD IGP: Lenovo IBM B550
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Anyway, I ebayed today a Zotac ION ITX D. Now I am l looking for a case (with external pico psu) Smile
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#10
Hi there - I know, its a bit Off-topic to this thread, but I am ordering the rest of my system right now.

Q: is dual channel RAM mandatory for the ION? I am think of buying just 1x 2GB - so I could maybe later upgrade to 4GB. 2GB-memory has also a much more stable price.
Poofyhairguy, could you give an advise pls? Smile
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#11
My netbook runs 1*2 Giig ddr2 ram, its plenty enought to run both windows 7 and xbmc on it. If u still want a netbook, get one that uses ion1 or ion2. Mine is based on a single core 1.6Ghz Atom 2 gigs of ram,ion1. Runs everything... even streaming 40 gig blue ray movies with no problem. Has HDMI but lacks SPDIF out, so if u want ac3 and DTS get a usb souncard if youre amp does not support HDMi.
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#12
Gumble Wrote:Hi there - I know, its a bit Off-topic to this thread, but I am ordering the rest of my system right now.

Q: is dual channel RAM mandatory for the ION? I am think of buying just 1x 2GB - so I could maybe later upgrade to 4GB. 2GB-memory has also a much more stable price.
Poofyhairguy, could you give an advise pls? Smile

Oops, missed this question.

I think dual channel memory is needed, for ION1 and not so much for ION2. Why? Because ION1 uses shared memory which is much better with dual channel, while ION2 has dedicated VRAM making it so that that a single channel configuration is fine.

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#13
Yesterday all parts finally arrived (damn online shop). I didn't have much time -just installed dharma2-xbmc-live (via usb stick and unetbootin) on the 120GB 2.5" hard drive - the system and hd videos are running smoothly without any configuration done, even with 1x 2GB ram. Only the Zotac Wifi did not work.
Anyway: the A+ CS-160 case is very tiny! The DC-DC psu, the itx-board, Slim-Drive and notebook hdd - the case is totally packed. Unfortunately neither the Noiseblocker 60x60 nor the scythe slim 120x120 fan is fitting. So I had to use the slim Zotac 60x60 fan which comes with the board. Bad idea - it is very noisy. Now I am thinking of buying a 80x80/92x92/100x100 scythe slim fan.

Unfortunately, the slim sata dvd drive has a small power connector and I don't have an adapter yet. I was not able to install win7 via usb stick and unetbootin - don't know why.

Offtopic: how can I get to the ubuntu desktop? quitting xbmc just leads to a black screen.
OTT2: how can I set up the mini-PCIE Wifi?
OTT3: how can I set up a bluetooth dongle? I'd like to use a BT Microsoft Mouse and a BT Apple keyboard.
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#14
Hey,

XBMC-Live doesn't have a desktop or DE just XBMC and terminal/CLI. If you're at the terminal and would like a desktop simply type in the following:

Code:
sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop

Be warned, this will also install Pulse audio and a bunch of other stuff that you may or may not want.

You can also cherry-pick packages to install, though this would be easier with an XFCE or LXDE DE than likely with Gnome and you'll have to do some searching and reading if that's what you want.

Take care,
daemox
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Cheap Notebook - alternative solution for HTPC? // Lenovo IdeaPad U4500