Difference between "update library" and "scan for new content"

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robweber Offline
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Post: #16
spiff Wrote:wizards are the illicit spawn of satan's grandma and not a solution to anything.

Nice one. I have to agree, I'm not sure how a wizard will streamline the process much. As long as the person setting up the source takes the time to give at least a cursory glance to the 'Add Sources' screen, they will see the set content option. If they miss it, a quick search in the wiki for 'Video Library' will most likely bring up what they need. You really can't get much more step by step then the process outlined there.
I don't think we need to dumb down the procedures for people who don't want to take the time to read something unless they are forced to as they progress through a wizard.
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garyi Offline
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Post: #17
I think confluence is even more complex, I really don't like all these hidden options, yes they are geektastic but others in the household would not have a clue on pressing right on videos (for instance) in order to 'find' TV shows and Films. Its just not good practice. I hate to keep mentioning my wife because she is far from thick, but she has no interest in how this thing works she just wants it to work. For that to happen I estimate takes me about half an hour or more a week to keep up to date and 'working'

The whole library thing in XBMC is very complex its not user friendly in the slightest and changing names is not going to help.

1. Videos needs to go, or at least be buried as 'file system' 'explorer' or what ever, it should never be needed in day to day use.

2. Setting content should be automated. I am not a programmer and what I am saying might be crap but surely scrapers could work out when you first add a source if the content is music/film/tvshow? Even if it had a stab then said 'we believe this source is tv shows yes or no?'

3. New additions to the library need to be automagically bought in, restarting is not an option, mine is running 24/7.

4. The update library thing only adds it never takes away. For instance the other day I finally got round to fixing season 6 of Southpark which had the shows wrongly numbered so the info related to the wrong show. I fixed them on the computer then updated the library. All that happened was I got double of everything. So then I had to delete the whole of season 6, then go back to videos into tv shows to scan for new content to get season 6 back and scraped properly. In the mean time it 'refound' sesame street a folder I physically deleted from the computer and removed from the library. Sigh. So I removed that again.

Its a constant thing. The good news is I am a geek so love it, but most people I have tried to promote this too soon move on when it comes to the whole library thing.

My feeling is XBMC is as far as it can be with the current library system, I don't see in its current state how it can be made more friendly. And I want to make totally clear I love the programme and the efforts that have gone into it, but the library is complex..
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xexe Offline
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Post: #18
I should also add there is an extra level of complication going from "XBMC best guess of content" to "this is precisely what I have and 100% coverage"

But I would like to say that I have some decent experience of teaching users how to implement the library both IRL and in IRC. Its not until you have sat down with someone who is a blank slate and tried to explain all teh nuances to get to 100% accurate 100% coverage that you truely realise how hard it is.

Perhaps this is stating the obvious but perhaps it is not. Once you get the basics you are well on your way but far from skilled. It doesn't help that at least half of the library support requests illicit responses of "dont use XBMC use this other cool windows only tool to do this bit".

There are definately some areas that can be slickened up but lets not forget that whole swathes of the files users ask XBMC to identify are named by well meaning but ultimately completly unskilled users. Rubbish in rubbish out.


Having problems getting your TV shows recognized?

Try my extra TV show matching REGEX here
(This post was last modified: 2009-11-30 22:18 by xexe.)
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robweber Offline
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Post: #19
@garyi
Quote:The update library thing only adds it never takes away. For instance the other day I finally got round to fixing season 6 of Southpark which had the shows wrongly numbered so the info related to the wrong show. I fixed them on the computer then updated the library. All that happened was I got double of everything. So then I had to delete the whole of season 6, then go back to videos into tv shows to scan for new content to get season 6 back and scraped properly. In the mean time it 'refound' sesame street a folder I physically deleted from the computer and removed from the library. Sigh. So I removed that again.

You can used advancedsettings.xml to have the library do a 'clean on update'. This should remove files that no longer exist.
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garyi Offline
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Post: #20
Thanks Rob, I think you have succinctly proven my point.
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Jaken Offline
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Post: #21
garyi Wrote:...
1. Videos needs to go, or at least be buried as 'file system' 'explorer' or what ever, it should never be needed in day to day use.
...

Videos dosen't need to go. I think we need more "types" of videos. I have several categories of videos that i don't want in a library. Mostly home videos and small clips form the internet. But I also have quite a few documentaries that are not scrapeable.
I want:
Movies (library)
Tv-shows (library)
Home videos (folder structure)
Clips (folder structure)
Documentaries (folder structure) (some may be scraped, and maybe some library mode)

These should only appear if you have something in the corresponding category.

I'm not sure if my idea is the best but i think you should be able to choose what content is in the folder (same menu as add source). And then xbmc should by default put movies and tv-shows in the library. I'm not sure where it would be good to find this menu. Probably is settings among other places a good idea.

On an other note i can completely agree with that the library is quite hard to grasp. I used xbmc for ages without using the library because i preferred the folder structure i was used to.
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ashlar Offline
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Post: #22
One possible solution would be to ask for media sources during installation. One can always add stuff later on but having some media already in the library could help dispell some confusion?
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snoxbox Offline
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Post: #23
spiff Wrote:wizards are the illicit spawn of satan's grandma and not a solution to anything.

I agree, however I think a 'wizard-like' approach would help new users setup their systems. Something as simple as this:

1. User 'Adds Source'. Clicks OK.
2. Popup window asks if they would like to 'Set Content'.
3. Set Content Window appears. User sets the content, clicks OK.
3. Popup window appears, asking if they would like the newly added directory scanned into the library. (I know there is an option in the Set Content window to scan, but it is easily missed/misunderstood).

There are 3 distinct actions required to add sources into the library. I think a link between the 3 would help new users.
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robweber Offline
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Post: #24
Jaken Wrote:I'm not sure if my idea is the best but i think you should be able to choose what content is in the folder (same menu as add source). And then xbmc should by default put movies and tv-shows in the library. I'm not sure where it would be good to find this menu. Probably is settings among other places a good idea.

If I'm understanding what you are asking, you can defintely do this already; I do this all the time. I have one network share (the source) that I setup under 'Add Source' in the Videos section. This share has many folders, including one for movies, one for TV shows, home movies, media clips, etc.

On the folders I want scanned to the library, I just bring up the context menu on that folder, set the content, and then scan them. This way only the stuff I want in the library is in the library.

Also, @garyi
I'm not an XBMC developer, but one of the reasons I've read (search the forums) for why XBMC doesn't 'cleanonupdate' automatically is that people who lost their network connections (or it didn't get DHCP or something fast enough) were losing their entire library if they had it set to scan on startup + clean. Also, once added to your library, most people don't rename or move their files around (or at least they shouldn't). For the one or two files you may have to move manually removing and re-adding them shouldn't be a problem.
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Jaken Offline
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Post: #25
robweber Wrote:If I'm understanding what you are asking, you can defintely do this already; I do this all the time. I have one network share (the source) that I setup under 'Add Source' in the Videos section. This share has many folders, including one for movies, one for TV shows, home movies, media clips, etc.

On the folders I want scanned to the library, I just bring up the context menu on that folder, set the content, and then scan them. This way only the stuff I want in the library is in the library.

Yes i know this. The idea was more like: Several types of videos, some goes to library some don't. Once added a new "category" will appear on homescreen.

What you referred to was my try to explain a menu for this. The explanation was rather unsuccessful. Smile
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robweber Offline
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Post: #26
Jaken Wrote:Yes i know this. The idea was more like: Several types of videos, some goes to library some don't. Once added a new "category" will appear on homescreen.

What you referred to was my try to explain a menu for this. The explanation was rather unsuccessful. Smile

Ok, I think I have it now. Your idea is to be able to setup categories (like Home Movies, or whatever) and then be able to set the content of your directories to those categories. You can also then choose if you want that category to be scraped or not (if it contains movies or TV shows).
Then when you are in your video library on the root screen you will be able to see all of your categories and choose them without having to switch between library and video view.
Does this sound more like what you meant?

If so, it does sound like a neat idea; but if this thread is any indication of how confused people can get about the library scanning processes the addition of new categories and options might just be more confusing.
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Jaken Offline
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Post: #27
robweber Wrote:Ok, I think I have it now. Your idea is to be able to setup categories (like Home Movies, or whatever) and then be able to set the content of your directories to those categories. You can also then choose if you want that category to be scraped or not (if it contains movies or TV shows).
Then when you are in your video library on the root screen you will be able to see all of your categories and choose them without having to switch between library and video view.
Does this sound more like what you meant?

If so, it does sound like a neat idea; but if this thread is any indication of how confused people can get about the library scanning processes the addition of new categories and options might just be more confusing.

Yeah you understood my idea. But i think some important types of videos (movies and tv-shows) should be predefined to be scraped and put in library.

I also think you should have a unified menu for adding content to xbmc.

something like:

Select path:
C:\Music\Music Videos\

Select type of files:
Videofiles | Music | images

Select video type:
Movies | TV-Shows | Home videos | Music videos | Create new...

done: Now a "Music Videos" button appear either on Homescreen or in music. Since it is music videos they are scraped by default. (where to place music videos i don't know Smile )

A problem with this approach is that we will have quite many options in home screen. Smile
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robweber Offline
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Post: #28
I like the create your own categories idea, but putting things on the home screen is going to be a very skin dependent thing. Just for example, in Confluence you get Movies, Files, Library, and Plugins off of the video menu. In Rapier you get Videos, and then Movies as a separate item if movies exist in the library. Then there are mods that add sub menu items to jump to specific areas as well. What shows up on the menu or sub-menu is very much up to the skinner, not the system. These are just two examples, but from looking at screen shots for other skins they will also be very different, some don't even have support for a sub-menu system (think PMIII when that was default).

That being said, I could see the different video types going into the root of the Video Library menu. so at the very root in your library you'd see something like

Movies
TV Shows
Home Movies <- add category
Video Clips <- added category
Recently Added
Playlists

From here you could mod your skin to put shortcuts into the home screen if you wanted. This would still allow you to have multiple sources, and directories being scanned into personally specified containers for the library; but still leave the skinner in control of what is on the screen.
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Jaken Offline
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Post: #29
robweber Wrote:I like the create your own categories idea, but putting things on the home screen is going to be a very skin dependent thing. Just for example, in Confluence you get Movies, Files, Library, and Plugins off of the video menu. In Rapier you get Videos, and then Movies as a separate item if movies exist in the library. Then there are mods that add sub menu items to jump to specific areas as well. What shows up on the menu or sub-menu is very much up to the skinner, not the system. These are just two examples, but from looking at screen shots for other skins they will also be very different, some don't even have support for a sub-menu system (think PMIII when that was default).

That being said, I could see the different video types going into the root of the Video Library menu. so at the very root in your library you'd see something like

Movies
TV Shows
Home Movies <- add category
Video Clips <- added category
Recently Added
Playlists

From here you could mod your skin to put shortcuts into the home screen if you wanted. This would still allow you to have multiple sources, and directories being scanned into personally specified containers for the library; but still leave the skinner in control of what is on the screen.

Sounds great.
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robweber Offline
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Post: #30
Jaken Wrote:Sounds great.

I took some time to create a simple working concept for what was discussed here. Basically you can add a 'category' to a folder that will then display all the videos in that category within the video library. Right now it doesn't have a lot of options but it is a working prototype.

Here is a link to the thread.

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=64687
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