[sord_fish]

but what about the dvb-t signal decoding, you propose that right? or you propose that we took the output of the digital receiver and put pvr functionnalities on it? if you propose to replace the digital receiver, most of the signals are encrypted, and it's illegal to decrypt them. you need to buy the proper key or licence to use it.

afaik in the uk its just bskyb tv that isnt allowed to be decoded as its a paymonthly subscription
digital free to air channels are i asume as long as you pay a tv licence etc. this just requires a set top box that decodes the digital signal to a analogue tv.

if we took the composite tv signal (rca) and passed it throught it would be extra encoding and would make the signal become pixelated(sp?). but a seperate svideo/rca video imput would be a good idea still

[Gamester17]

question: is it possible to connect more than one tuner-chip to each media processing cpu (as long as only one is used at a time)?
(if that is possible then one could exampel connect both a 'dvb-t chip' and a 'rm-radio chip' to only one media processing core?, or?)

a cpu can process any data if the software is made for it. we can take 10 signals, mux (either temporal mux, or data mux) them into on input to the cpu, and then process it as we wish. remember, we are talking about data, that is no longer analog signal which are querky to manipulate and with which we risk to lose data. a data flow can contain anything, and can means different thing.

cool, so if i understand that correctly you don't really need one (media-)cpu for each tv-tuner (as long as a the cpu is powerfull enough)?, then if taking nexperia as an example you wounld not really need the pnx8550 for two different tv-tuners?, pnx1500 would/could due?
if that is the case then suggest this for tv2lan-lite; pnx1500 + pnx300x (for analog-tv & fm tuning) + tda10046ht (for dvb-t tuning),
(if you read the pnx1500 specs-overview in the pdf you see that it does not require a separate main-cpu for those basic features/functions).
also add/use 4 physical input ports on the tv2lan-box, 1 coaxial (analog/dvb-t tv) antenna-in, 1 rca video-in, 2 rca (left/right) audio-in.
i now believe that combination would be easy and cheap to design/manufacture, and possible the ideal to market/sell as first tv2lan model.

...then if all goes well with the first model and you get some capital in or investors then you can make an additional model with pnx8550

but what about the dvb-t signal decoding, you propose that right? or you propose that we took the output of the digital receiver and put pvr functionnalities on it? if you propose to replace the digital receiver, most of the signals are encrypted, and it's illegal to decrypt them. you need to buy the proper key or licence to use it.

afaik in the uk its just bskyb tv that isnt allowed to be decoded as its a pay monthly subscription digital free to air channels are i asume as long as you pay a tv licence etc. this just requires a set top box that decodes the digital signal to a analogue tv.

i too live in the united kingdom and yes here there's something called free-to-air dvb-t tv which is free and not encrypted. i'm actually swedish (only work in the uk) and sweden also have a free-to-air dvb-t system, i think most other west-european contries have that too by now. i also believe there are free unencrypted channels on dvb-c and dvb-s but i guess that could be accessed via rca-video and rca letf/rigth audio to an external third-party cable or satellite tv decoder, at least for the first and entry level models of tv2lan.

[Xlash]

looks we catch friendtech, linux community and cykiller interest. see the post he made on our xbox-scene topic:

fyi

expect to hear good news on new mce for xbox with pvr functionality (to be added upon hardware dev.) and also hdmi features soon. it is in the beta stages but blows all other linux based media centers frorto shame. this is cykiller, yes the one who has retired from the xbox scene but this project interest has resurrected the name. it has only been in the works for about a month now but has a lot of potential as it is not merely just another media center it actually this is an extremely significant development, as it is the first "practical" installation of a linux-based application that an entry-level user can utilize.. let me feed your curiosity, mce is based on mythtv and gentoox (fully legal through cromwell). coordinated and developed by shallax and i the mce has a very bright future. expect more in the xbox news very soon and keep up the good work because we are looking for ways to add pvr functions asap. xlash your mail was forwarded to me from friendtech and i will go over it a little more when i get time and get back to you personally but to let you know the interest level is high. i won't read the forums that much if at all after this for your response but im sure in coming days you will be able to find a way to contact me through friendtech.


here is a review of a user i let preview (thanks aweirduy), this is his final conclusion of the software when it was beta3 and we are now in beta4 stage with a major add-on:

"there have been previous versions of linux available for the xbox, but none of them have the "entry-level-appeal" of the friendtech media center. this is a piece of software that the "legitimate law abiding citizens" can use to expand the current abilities of their xbox, without needing a "power-user" type of background and previous linux experience. the modding community needs this type of software desperately, as this provides a solid, legitimate purpose to keep modchips legal. it might be a small step in the advancement for media players, but it's a giant groundbreaking leap for legitimacy of the entire xbox modding community."


it will go public on the 31st of this month and i will send a more detailed public notice to the scene tomorrow for sites to post (please do not use this for site publicity as i will send out a more detailed notice tomorrow).

cykiller


(please do not try to pm nor email me, shallax, or friendtech about the project we will contact you if needed and thank you.)



--------------------

i'm no pirate, but i do have a hook for an arm, wooden stick for an leg, and a patched eye, lol and yet i'm still no pirate.

an expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field.

i guess they would be pretty interest. i'll think of it. tell me what you think. i sure prefer xbmc till i see that linux media player.

cool, so if i understand that correctly you don't really need one (media-)cpu for each tv-tuner (as long as a the cpu is powerfull enough)?, then if taking nexperia as an example you wounld not really need the pnx8550 for two different tv-tuners?, pnx1500 would/could due?

exact, one cpu is enough if the power to process all the data is enough. about the pnx8550, we could take the 1500 and get all the data. however, it may need some cpu power to mux (maybe another small chip) or more inputs on the current x1500. in that case, if we have a data bus for example (as entry), we could deal with all the data at one. it may not be the easiest solution, but i guess some other components already exist to do that. at the end, i could still make a serial+serial 2 fastserial (which mux in time the data (1st package a 2nd b, 3rd a, 4th b, etc...))

ok i didn't heard about that digital terrestrial signal before. in canada, there is no such thing (as i know). however, it may be pretty easy to add for a model for europe, with pal signal encoding. (by the way, radio frequency aren't probably the same in each country... which can lead to different tv-tuner.) our cablodistributor must use some frequency for north american tv (ntsc signal), which can differ in country. i'll have to check those frequency value for each channel from 2 to 99

[Xlash]

xbox-scene news :

announcing a new project... friendtech media center
>> from shallax on http://gentoox.shallax.com/:

developed in collaboration with friendtech, both i (the developer) and cykiller (the coordinator) are proud to announce "friendtech media center". based upon "gentoox" and the tried and tested "mythtv(info)", the media center currently allows for playback of videos and audio while offering more advanced features such as an image gallery, dvd ripping and encoding, cd ripping and encoding, web browsing and weather forecasting. all the time an ftp server and samba server are running in the background to allow you to upload new media and even download ripped media to/ from your xbox.

the project itself is still only in beta stages and has been in development for under a month. the release of beta 4 brings gentoox and the media center together in one package - when installing the media center, it will ask for a gentoox cd and install both in one go. this means you can either boot straight into the media center to watch some movies, or boot into gentoox to use instant messaging clients/ chat such as gaim and xchat (irc). basically, this turns your xbox into a complete computer and then some. remember, the emphasis of the project is on ease of use. there is no messing around trying to set the software up - it works straight out of the box! just run through the fully automated installer and you'll be up and running in no time... linux has never been this easy.

"so whats so great about this?", you may think. legalities. xbmc/ xbmp, while being very good piece of software, are illegal. this is because they have been compiled with illegal, stolen software development kits (xdk) and require illegal, hacked bioses to load them. friendtech media center (or mce for short) only requires a special version of cromwell(info) to boot. cromwell, as many know, is a clean implementation of a custom bios for the xbox which was designed specifically for booting linux and nothing else.
while the software is indeed in its early stages, it is full functional and (hopefully! unhindered by bugs. the software also comes with a quick and automated rescue feature, so in the unlikely event of something going wrong - you can recover from it without even getting out of your seat to change cds. mce has been thoroughly tested by myself, cykiller and a few other select testers who have all deemed it to be a great step forward. mce can be operated entirely from a remote control, though a keyboard and xpad are highly recommended. plans include pvr support in the future among other things.
"so what will this cost me?". nothing. absolutely nothing. the founder of friendtech, paul hu, has generously decided to give this piece of software away free to the community and it will be shipped as standard with all future friendtech bravo xbox machines and with their dreamx line by customer request.
"ok, when can i get it?". current plans schedule the release of beta 4 for july 31st 2004! be patient until then, and keep watching friendtech's xbox homepage and here for updates!

now for some technical information:
* you will need at least a 20gb hdd installed in your xbox.
* you will need a raincoat flashable modchip/ tsop with a 256k bank for this to work. (xenium/ smartxx will not work).
* mce formats your f: drive completely to a linux recognisable format - it will no longer be fatx and you will no longer be able to backup games to it. if you have anything on f:, back it up first! the decision to make it linux native was based on two factors, legality and speed. native filesystems are faster than loopbacks and if you are using your xbox legally, you have no need for f: to be accessible by your standard xbox software.
* gentoox will require 3.5-4.5gb of space on e: depending on whether you choose "home" or "pro" respectively.

thats all for now. please do not contact cykiller or friendtech regarding this project, all details will be posted later on their site. if you do have some urgent questions, feel free to contact me via this website.

*update*
i've opened a new set of forums for mce discussion. just click the forum link on the left and scroll down!

(july 28 05:40 gmt+1) - (direct link to article)
(posted by:: xantium)

hmmm... that sounds great! and i sure wish to have such visibility ;-)

[Gamester17]

cool, so if i understand that correctly you don't really need one (media-)cpu for each tv-tuner (as long as a the cpu is powerfull enough)?, then if taking nexperia as an example you wounld not really need the pnx8550 for two different tv-tuners?, pnx1500 would/could due?

exact, one cpu is enough if the power to process all the data is enough. about the pnx8550, we could take the 1500 and get all the data. however, it may need some cpu power to mux (maybe another small chip) or more inputs on the current x1500. in that case, if we have a data bus for example (as entry), we could deal with all the data at one. it may not be the easiest solution, but i guess some other components already exist to do that. at the end, i could still make a serial+serial 2 fastserial (which mux in time the data (1st package a 2nd b, 3rd a, 4th b, etc...))

i don't think that will be needed(?), the pnx1500 overview (read whole pdf) show it's designed to do all that (demux/transcode/mux) by itself making the need for a separate cpu for os/sw/mux redundant (as long as the process load is not to heavy, meaning that as long as you don't plan to stream more than one channel at a time the pnx1500 will handle everyone, only if you plan to stream more than one channel at the same time will a separate cpu be needed but then an additianal media-processor will probebely be needed as well in which case the pnx8550 is better suited as it has two media-processor cores and a main-cpu core integrated into the one chip). please take the time to read the whole pnx1500 pdf overview/specs pdf, i think you then will see what i mean (the pnx1500 even has a built-in 10/100mb ethernet controller, it's like it's designed for tv2lan-lite), all you will need is the pnx1500 and the tv-tuner chip(s).

ok i didn't heard about that digital terrestrial signal before. in canada, there is no such thing (as i know). however, it may be pretty easy to add for a model for europe, with pal signal encoding. (by the way, radio frequency aren't probably the same in each country... which can lead to different tv-tuner.) our cablodistributor must use some frequency for north american tv (ntsc signal), which can differ in country. i'll have to check those frequency value for each channel from 2 to 99

yes frequences is different in different contries but the pnx300x chip suppots "multistandard pal, ntsc and secam video decoding" and fm is more or less a universial standard (only thing that's then different is the frequences for video and audio for which you need to code a scanner, fine-tuner and manual frequency selector anyway).

i looked up the terrestrial dtv (digital-tv) standards, dvb-t is a european standard so the philips tda10046ht chip will be good for all of europe, but you need a other dvt chip for usa (atsc) and japan (isdb-t), as those three make up the major markets for selling/buying electronic 'gadgets', so there will not exacly be a need for different chips for each country standard, (the same analog chip for all contries but different dtv chips). i didn't look up digital cable or satellite tv but i think that dvb-c and dvb-s are univerisal standards so if add such chips to future models of tv2lan derivitives then those will be universial too, (anyway that's a lissue to deal with later as terrestrial/air-wave tv and radio should be the only thing deal with in the first model).

the three major digital-tv terrestrial transmission systsems (link to pdf overview):
- atsc system (usa) (and canada?)   ...make a separate "tv2lan-lite us" model for this together with the analog chip(?).
- dvb-t system (europe)                   ...make a separate "tv2lan-lite eu" model for this together with the analog chip(?).
- isdb-t system (japan)                    ...make a separate "tv2lan-lite j" model for this together with the analog chip(?).

note! i don't thing there is a big buying-market anymore for a only analog tv-tuner, especialy not when make for network, (or?),
so i think it be best if even the "lite" model of the tv2lan supported both analog-tv and terrestrial digital-tv, do you disagree?

ps! as for "friendtech media center", that's off-topic and not related to xbmc, however it's indirectly related to this tv2lan project,
(only indirectly and not directly related to tv2lan because the plan is to make tv2lan client code platform and os independant(?))

[sord_fish]

would hdtv be suported?

[Xlash]

xbmc supports hdtv.

[Gamester17]

would hdtv be supported?

xbmc supports hdtv.

i'm afraid that question can not be answered by a simple yes or no, (first read => www.xboxmediacenter.de/info_faq.htm#hdtv);
yes the xbox/xbmc supports hdtv output at 480p/720p/1080i, but a normal xbox can only decode maximum native 480p hdtv,
you need at least the twice as fast cpu of a dreamx-1480 to decode mpeg-2 or mpeg-4 video at 720p (1024x768 resolution) video.
however a normal xbox can upscale/upconvert lower-resolution video (720x576 & under) for mpeg-2/4 to 720p, maybe even 1080i).
and that is just on the xbox recieving-end, then you have to look at the tv2lan-side of it. analog-tv isn't hdtv (unless upconvert),
only digital-tv has hdtv capability (if the broadcaster use it, ex such broadcasts are not yet available in europe at all) and then you
have to make sure both the tv-tuner chip and the cpu in the supports it and can handle the stress (both pnx1500 and pnx8550 do).
finally, since tv2lan won't just be for xbox but also pc and mac you have to see if the hardware and software of those support it.

[Gamester17]

@xlash, on second thoughts (or maybe it's third or forth thought on this now), about the specs for your first commersial tv2lan box,
i (now) think that you be best of making the first "tv2lan-lite" box analog-tv and fm-radio only, using only pnx1500 +  pnx300x,
(skipping native digital-tv support on the lite-box would bring down the retail-price and make it universial/one-for-all-countries, which
i now believe would be a good idea for the introduction box. besided one will still be able to connect external-tv-tuners to it via rca).
in conclusion: base your first tv2lan box only on pnx1500 and pnx300x, call it "tv2lan-lite" and sell it online to all countries!
(oh, it needs 5 input-ports: 1 analog-tv coaxial antenna-in, 1 fm-radio coaxial antenna-in, 1 rca video-in, 2 rca (left/right) audio-in)

[konfoo]

why design a tv2lan box when they already exist?
http://www.novra.com/receivers.htm

or if you already have a atsc hdtv board:
http://www.streamxpress.net/xcaster

or if you already have a dvb-s or analog capture card:
http://www.videolan.org

... etc.

the only thing needed is a real-time transcoder for hd signals to sd signals. i can do realtime atsc mpeg2 sd @ 6mbit to realtime mpeg2/divx/xvid/whatever sd @ 1mbit with directshow demux and re-encode or transcode using about 10% cpu on a p4 2.6ghz. hd right now is not possible due to the cpu horsepower needed. maybe when p4 4ghz chips roll around this will be possible.

as for building a box, there are chips available that support mpeg2/4/avc and wmv9/10 as well as real-time transcoding of formats. you can also go the dsp route if you want more flexibility (like ms did before they implemented wm in silicon). my only question here is do the people that are building this hardware have the funds to license the technologies. as a reference point some of the consumer digital tv tuner board sdks are $2k. atsc membership is $14k (maybe as little as $500-1k if you can prove you're not a corporation). mpeg iso specifications also come at a price. and you will need ul certification to sell the hardware box. ofcourse you can just reverse-engineer a lot of this stuff but don't cry if mpegla hits you with fines for not licensing, or studios nail you for bypassing the broadcast flag. this is relatively simple to get around with a software solution (just pull it from the market), but not with a hardware solution (unless you're making them on a one-off basis).

the best solution is to offload the work from the xbox and just make this another streaming input.

[HardSoft]

you understand correctly. i want to engineer a device which will let the xbox run as a tivo with the proper software on it. i want it pc-free as a stand alone upgrade.  i mean capability to pick up tv and stream over network and not decode satellite or digital tv encoded signal. it will be useful for those who have analog tv coming throught rf cable. (coaxial)

all,

let me know if this has already been discussed, but i haven't found any references to it in this forum - yet..

just for a differnet angle on this pvr discusson, has anyone noticed that the av plug on the xbox is labelled as a "audio video input/output".. i have also heard that there is a itoy "like" game for xbox which also suggests it is able to take in video somehow.

i was hoping to use the xbox as an analog recording device, ideally encoding in divx or mpeg4 but if the processor isn't up to it then maybe mpeg2 would be a good start. this shouldn't be too hard for the 700mhz chip of the xbox when i can do this with "reasonable results" on a pii 450.

it would be a tidy solution to simply have another av dongle which has a set of composite leads (for input) additonal to the existing output leads (in my case s-video). i don't know if any smarts would be required in the av dongle, but i'm guessing this must already be in the xbox if there is in fact an itoy like game available that can take the video of a webcam and use it for a game. in this case i would expect that xbmc would be able to be modified to record the input to the hard drive to become a general purpose av capture device.

i currently have a topfield digital settop reciever with built in hard drive (http://www.topfield.co.kr/ for anyone interested) which is a fantastic unit but it doesn't offer a way of archiving recordings (ie. if you keep a recording it simply occupies space on the hd). therefore i have been looking for methods to offload recordings, one option is to buy a dvd recorder ($$, limited recording space & lot's of negative feedback at the moment) and another way could be to the xbox with xbmc-pvr edition .

i expect the end result would be able to be used with any av source with an analog output, dv videocameras, vhs, dvd, and tv.

food for thought maybe or not possible.??

cheers, hardsoft.

[sord_fish]

hmm yes it labled "audio video input/output" weird, i wounder if there is some sort of video prosessor built in :hmm:

xlash, gamester17 any news?

[KwayZeeyT]

i love this idea, and eagerly await more news.  let me know if you need any beta testers...  :thumbsup:

i'm just thinking out loud here, so take it for what it is worth.

instead of making different versions for us/uk/jap and a lite/reg/pro model, why not make a modular design?  each tuner would be a modual that could be installed in to any chassis.

you could still make two versions, the tv2lan-lite using the pnx1500, and the tv2lan-pro using the pnx8550.

both would come integrated with rca video + audio and fm tuning. (what about s-video or an ir repeater?)

the lite model would have two modual slots and a 100mbsp ethernet port. slot one would come populated with the analog tuner "card" for your location.  you could then purchase at a later time the d-tv "card" and add it.  only one input would be active at one time.

the pro model would have two banks of two, and a 1gbps ethernet port.  bank one would be "tuner 1", and bank two "tuner 2".  slot one, bank one, would still come with your reigon tuner card.  only one input per bank would be active at one time.  this would allow for dual source streaming.  then any combiniation of analog and digital tuner cards, or extra rca inputs could be used.

you could also offer a version with no tuner card option, for those of us in the us which have digital cable and satellite boxes.  something that would just have the rca/s-video input and an ir repeater to control the box.

[jalla]

any news on this?

[Gamester17]

@xlash, any news or updates on this? have you started work on a prototype or done any more research?, or are you on vacation?

has anyone noticed that the av plug on the xbox is labelled as a "audio video input/output"..

 hmm yes it labled "audio video input/output" weird, i wounder if there is some sort of video prosessor built in

no, that's just a type-0 misstake. the xbox motherboard does not have any video-in capable microchips in it at all. i'm 100% sure.

i have also heard that there is a itoy "like" game for xbox which also suggests it is able to take in video somehow.

i've not heard anything about that but if there is then it must use the xbox game-(usb)-ports for it, (as if they're licenced by microsoft they could get usb drivers and/or code from enableing them to use the xbox game-ports as normal usb ports for a 'webcam'). again, the xbox does not have any built-in video-in or tv-in capabilities, for sure.