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Full Version: 10-bit h264 (Hi10) Support?
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compcentral Wrote:Yes, an art form that is rarely used in mainstream movies/tv. My whole point is that 10-bit encoding hasn't been used to encode the majority of mainstream content yet and therefore isn't a problem for most people... wouldn't you agree?

If so, why worry about it now when it may be replaced by h.265 soon?

There really isn't anything to "worry" about. The functionality is already in place in ffmpeg. There is a lot of non-10-bit work that gets patched into ffmpeg on a regular basis, including important security patches. It's JMO that a major XBMC release should bring in the latest version of ffmpeg... but again, that's JMO. The general project philosophy seems to be a focus on the library aspect of XBMC, and the player role isn't that important. I don't think that would necessarily be a bad idea, if integration of third-party media players was more advanced. Or, at least, if there was an integration of a well-established multi-platform player like mplayer2 so that a majority of the users (Windows, Linux, OS X) could enjoy the latest goodies.

H.265 is probably a long ways off, not to mention the fact that the increased computational requirements might hinder adoption. Nevertheless, 10-bit is here now... ordered chapters and linked segments are upon us... multi-threaded decoding for non-accelerated content has been supported in ffmpeg for several months.

I'm not a fan of being shoe-horned by these anime fansubber dweebs and their fickle encoding methods, so I don't think XBMC development should just yield to their flavor of the day. I just support more focus on better / more flexible player options.
I don't have any content encoded in Hi10, but its the new 'it' thing as evidenced by this long thread. If the popularity manages to get the latest ffmpeg/ffdshow into XBMC, then I say its a good result!
compcentral actually brings up a point I tried to get across to a number of fansub groups. Hi10P isn't the codec of the future, and there are better ones out there for when we are ready (hardware and software wise) for a new one.

Anime is in the minority for online video, and it's the only place I've seen jumping to use Hi10P
The sad thing is, by simply using more aggressive encoding settings (which take longer) in my transcodes to 8-bit, the vast majority are achieving an SSIM of 0.993 or higher (essentially visually identical), and most are smaller than the 10-bit encodes being released by the groups.
magao Wrote:Admittedly UTW said they're only doing ordered chapters in this one particular case due to the resultant size of the OP. Still annoying, but I can live with it (there are very few OPs that I want to watch every time anyway).

Well, not having the ordered chapters support is still a major letdown for everyone using external subtitles, for the subs in this case come out totally broken. BTW, even the built-in subs in Ubuntu XBMC (for one, the karaoke lyrics) quite often look totally different from how they should look and hog enormous amounts of CPU for some reason. Beats me why.Huh
Okay, I got off of my lazy arse and gave it a try.

ZERO <ibis> Wrote:omg I found the options, I feel so stupid now I literally spent hours messing around with various filters... rofl

Well I guess I will turn coreavc back on b/c I assume that is the best.

Any recommendations for the best audio filter currently I am using:
haali media splitter
ffdshow video
ffdshow audio

I will now change ffdshow video to coreavc

Awesome, I was able to use bicubic 1 and turn on deinterlacing and post processing! I feel so stupid for forgetting about those options on the xbmc side.

This is great, I followed alexrose1uk's guide to get DSPlayer running as Standard player and your settings to get rid of the interlacing effects to watch 10-bit videos. Works. Smile
So far so good, but first XBMC crashes from time to time - guess there's no helping about that one, since DSPlayer was never properly completed - and 2ndly I don't see any subtitles when trying to watch 8-bit files directly on my PC with either Media Player Classic or Windows Media Player. 10-bit files won't even play. But that probably has to do with the LAV settings, I guess.

And DVDPlayer seems slightly ahead when it comes to the subtitle fonts, e.g. for example certain karaoke effects. See the ED Karaoke of Sage's release of Gundam Age or the OP Karaoke of UTW's Fate/Zero for example.
Ned Scott Wrote:compcentral actually brings up a point I tried to get across to a number of fansub groups. Hi10P isn't the codec of the future, and there are better ones out there for when we are ready (hardware and software wise) for a new one.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks for stating it more clearly. By the time people are ready for a new codec, a superior standard like h.265 will be ready for use. My guess is that Hi10p won't be used much a year from now and will be forgotten about soon after.
boingman Wrote:I am currently using a wireless Xbox 360 controller to browse the XBMC menus and watch my files. Would I still be able to do that when using an external player via XBMC?

Yes it will work exactly the same just with a different player so you may like I did need to go into the video options and turn on the correct quality settings.
boingman Wrote:And DVDPlayer seems slightly ahead when it comes to the subtitle fonts, e.g. for example certain karaoke effects. See the ED Karaoke of Sage's release of Gundam Age or the OP Karaoke of UTW's Fate/Zero for example.

I think you mean the dsplayer b/c Fate/Zero is in 10bit and would not play in DVDPlayer. However I do notice an issue with it when viewing the fate zero ed.

compcentral Wrote:My guess is that Hi10p won't be used much a year from now and will be forgotten about soon after.

Very unlikely as it clearly has massive benefits in reducing color banding and this is the primary driver of its usage in fan sub groups along with the decrease in file size. Unless something else that both decreases file size while increasing quality comes around and gets ffmpg support it is unlikely this will change.

For those of you that do not know a lot about anime it is BIG. There are a lot of shows as you can see here on the main database: http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=main and a lot of groups of people that translate and distribute it across the world as you can see in the individual show details on that same site (it will list all the groups that have releases for that show and the file data (you may need to be registered))

More importantly is that people that are into anime are REALLY into anime. This is not as simple as just watching your fav show or trying to just watch random stuff on tv. Anime is more of a hobby and the people that are into it take it very seriously. As a result many of us have or are trying to amass large libraries of series and anime related data. XBMC and its amazing databasing and scrapping features make it the perfect tool for us anime fans to organize our massive collections. I am one of the people trying to get more anime fans onto xbmc b/c I believe strongly that it is the ultimate platform to further enrich our hobby. This is also why I have specially modified skins to further enhance my anime experience when using xbmc and plan to make more changes in the future.

However, none of this is possible if xbmc can not play a large number of anime files. It is hard to get people to switch to a platform that seems to be ignoring them. I can say that while today the number of xbmc anime users is small it is something that will continue to grow as long as the player supports anime.
ZERO <ibis> Wrote:Yes it will work exactly the same just with a different player so you may like I did need to go into the video options and turn on the correct quality settings.

I initially thought that this was simply some external player like Windows Media Player actually playing on your desktop that you could start from the XBMC menu, instead of something IN XBMC. Big Grin

ZERO <ibis> Wrote:I think you mean the dsplayer b/c Fate/Zero is in 10bit and would not play in DVDPlayer.
No, I meant exactly what I wrote. 10bit files play on DVDPlayer, at least in my case, but obviously the video looks like crap. Since I was only talking about the subtitles though, that doesn't matter. To make sure, I did the same comparison with the unofficial 8bit releases of said series though.

Quote:However I do notice an issue with it when viewing the fate zero ed.
Yeah, same with the OP. And the UTW logo at the title screen looks broken. There are problems when displaying kara with multiple layers, though not as extreme as with DVDPlayer in the past when we were talking about Gosick OP screenshots.
To be fair, what I said about Gundam Age was wrong. The kara subtitles seem to play fine in that one. So we possibly only need to do some fine tuning in the settings.
ZERO, I can't stress this enough: this has nothing to do with liking anime or not. Hi10P will die off because anime groups will stop using it (exclusively) when they see how bad the trouble is and that there are better codecs out there. Anime seems huge, but it is a minority for Internet video. Also, the average English speaking anime fan is switching to streaming sites like Crunchy Roll or some other simulcast site. We might think of those fans as "casuals", but their numbers are massive and growing.

Hi10P is not for widespread use. A few fansubbers are not going to change that.

Quote:More importantly is that people that are into anime are REALLY into anime. This is not as simple as just watching your fav show or trying to just watch random stuff on tv. Anime is more of a hobby and the people that are into it take it very seriously.

Those people are also in the minority. Even some translators/subbers don't take anime that seriously. This is a minor point, but it bothers me when people assume (haters and fans alike) that all anime fans are like that.

Even if they were, that has very little to do with Hi10P. It's easy to pick a few aspects of video encoding and say they are the most important ones, but in real life it doesn't work that way. Most of the groups using Hi10P are over exaggerating the quality increase anyways.
Just to add a little levity to the conversation, Coalgirls announced recently that they will also be switching to 10bit.
Anyone who's ever downloaded a Coalgirls release will get the joke here.

(if you don't it means that their files will now be the size of normal encodes)
hikaricore Wrote:(if you don't it means that their files will now be the size of normal encodes)

Let's not get carried away now with expectations.
Ned Scott Wrote:Hi10P will die off because anime groups will stop using it (exclusively) when they see how bad the trouble is

Not likely. They don't care whatsoever about any trouble anyone else is having with playback.

Ned Scott Wrote:and that there are better codecs out there.

This is the reason. They'll jump on a new codec the instant it's supported by at least one combination of (Haali splitter/MPC splitter) + (CCCP/ffdshow-tryouts/CoreAVC/MPC/madVR).
hikaricore Wrote:Just to add a little levity to the conversation, Coalgirls announced recently that they will also be switching to 10bit.
Anyone who's ever downloaded a Coalgirls release will get the joke here.

(if you don't it means that their files will now be the size of normal encodes)

Mentioned in the 3rd post of this thread... just sayin'
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