Kodi Community Forum

so which will get me the smoothest playback with least amount of lficker having set refresh rate to patch video on or off

Turning on both adjust refreshrate and sync playback to display will get you the smoothest video, assuming it works the way it's supposed to work.

Smoother then 60htz right?

Yes, but only if the video is 24 or 25 fps, 30 fps on 60 hertz is fine.

ok i have 24p working at a price.... my audio is WAY out of sync. i have to delay it by 175ms to make it look somewhat in sync but this just just by eye. Whats going on? is this known should i just save it as default for all movies? my guess is its not going to be a uniform setting and i'm always gonna have sync problems. is this worth the headache? is this so called judder noticable when you have a 720p tv at 60htz because if thats the case i never noticed it on my 720p tv. I just want the most univeral setup that also will give me the same smooth playback ive been seeing forever on my other tv or is it because its a 120htz tv there is judder with 60 htz lastly i have a setting called TruMotion on my LG tv. my understanding is it does interpolation and adds frames in between real frames to get 120htz/fps. is this the case? so if i turned it off instead of making up what it thinks is the next frame it would just repeat the same frame 2 times for 60htz and 5 for 24htz.


edit most of my video library is 24fps (even tv shows though?) they are torrent releases and i wondering why they are this fps

I know these are a lot of questions but it someone could take the time to address and explain these it would be greatly appreaciated

Whatever those 100Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz are related to, it's not the panel which is 60Hz. I have a 100Hz tv and the panel is 60Hz. The same thing is sold as 120Hz in NTSC regions and 100Hz in PAL regions.

Bump

Hi m8,

I just read your thread and i think i have the same problems as you have.

What i am wondering tho, is if you also have these problems on other software? I know this is a XBMC forum, but i've also tried XBMC and had similair problems:

http://www.overclock.net/htpc/1148824-mu...st15408567

I'm still looking for an answer but after weeks of testing, guides-following, settings tweaking, different drivers, software, etc, i've gotten to a point where i'm starting to think that the TV 60 Hz thingie is a problem.

I recently bought a Samsung UE46D7000, a 46" led TV, 800Hz, but on some site it was posted that it didn't support 24P. I think that means that i can't select a 23,976 Hz rate, but i can infact select 24 Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz, etc.

I'm totally lost on the matter now cause i still haven't found a solution, and atm i feel like having €3500 worth of junk standing in my living room -.-

XBMC gave me the best results, however, it seems that a big difference is made when turning bitstreaming off.

My questions for you:

- Have you tried with other players (and had similair problems)?
- Do you use bitstreaming (probably not in XBMC ofc, but have you tried in other players)?
- If so, did the judder get worse when enabled, and similair to XBMC when turned off bitstreaming?

Kind regards,
Kami.

One more thing;
I've changed the refreshrate for 23,976 movies from 60 to 24Hz, and now the judder is much better, only to have problems with audio / lipsync.

When playing @ 60Hz, lipsync is perfect, but suffering judder....

ok, i think ive found the problem: My Samsung UE46D7000, and to be more precise, its playback enhancers, motion plus...

When i put my hdmi input in PC / game mode, all problems are solved. yet, it seems that with motion plus (which is turned off because of game mode) the playback is much more smoother (apart from the random judder ive been suffering). Thats why at the beginning of this thread, i got confused how much better the playback looked when playing through the smarthub, since then, game mode is off and motion plus is applied).

Ive also tested by hooking up a iiyama 24 inch full hd tft screen through hdmi, thus not using my tv, and i get the same results as with game mode on the tv (and thus without motion plus).

My questions now:

1. Can i expect just as much smoothness with other tvs, as with motion plus from samsung? Or is that an enhancer that only comes with samsung tvs (and gives problems when watching through a pc / htpc device)?

2. Is my TV 24P compatible and if not, could that be the reason for the stuttering when applying motion plus?

Well, i've figured it out...

I went to the BCC (a AV store in Holland) this afternoon with my HTPC, and i've hooked it up to all TV's in the store: Sony, Philips, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, plasma, LCD, LED, the works.

The problem with the judder is everywhere. And now i'm also clear on what my problem is called:

Telecine judder.

The problem is this:
In Holland (and most part of Europe), due to our 50Hz electricity network, you can only have 100hz/200hz TV's. These get upscaled to the 400/800Hz CMR types.

It is impossible to have a 120/240/480/960 Hz TV in Holland. And why is this important?

Because a 120/240/480/960 TV will be perfectly dividable by 24, thus making a perfect seamless output, also known as 5:5 Pulldown.

In Holland, we have 3:2 pulldown with 24P movies, since e.g 100hz divided by 24 is not a perfect round number.


So basicly, EVERYBODY in Holland has the same telecine judder, no matter what people say, as long as they have a LED / LCD TV and try to play 24P / NTSC movies.

What makes the judder more obvious tho, is the 400/800 Hz Clear Motion, or Full Motion technique; the telecine judder gets worse with this.
Because of the artificial doubling of the 100/200 Hz, the effect gets twice or 3 times worse.


So now, i have a dillema.... Either just accept the judder, or buy a plasma screen that has 600Hz, which is perfectly dividable by 24 and doesn't have the issue....

I must admit from all the TV's i've tested, there was 1 TV that had the littelest problems with the Telecine Judder: The Sony Bravia KDL HX820.

For some reason, it was able to play back very smooth, with an occasional small judder sometimes, but not as frequent as with all the other types. Even the Sony Bravya KDL HX920, which has 800 Hz opposed to the 400Hz the HX820 uses, had more judder problems then his little brother.


Community, what say thee?
Is Plasma the way to go in Holland for perfect smooth playback? And if so, what type?

FernetMenta Wrote:Whatever those 100Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz are related to, it's not the panel which is 60Hz. I have a 100Hz tv and the panel is 60Hz. The same thing is sold as 120Hz in NTSC regions and 100Hz in PAL regions.

It is related to the Hz frequency of the electricity net in that specific country. Thats why you cant buy 120/240 hz TV's in e.g. Holland, and can't buy 100/200/400 Hz TV's in the US.

KrazeyKami Wrote:Well, i've figured it out...

I went to the BCC (a AV store in Holland) this afternoon with my HTPC, and i've hooked it up to all TV's in the store: Sony, Philips, LG, Panasonic, Samsung, plasma, LCD, LED, the works.

The problem with the judder is everywhere. And now i'm also clear on what my problem is called:

Telecine judder.

The problem is this:
In Holland (and most part of Europe), due to our 50Hz electricity network, you can only have 100hz/200hz TV's. These get upscaled to the 400/800Hz CMR types.

It is impossible to have a 120/240/480/960 Hz TV in Holland. And why is this important?

Because a 120/240/480/960 TV will be perfectly dividable by 24, thus making a perfect seamless output, also known as 5:5 Pulldown.

In Holland, we have 3:2 pulldown with 24P movies, since e.g 100hz divided by 24 is not a perfect round number.


So basicly, EVERYBODY in Holland has the same telecine judder, no matter what people say, as long as they have a LED / LCD TV and try to play 24P / NTSC movies.

What makes the judder more obvious tho, is the 400/800 Hz Clear Motion, or Full Motion technique; the telecine judder gets worse with this.
Because of the artificial doubling of the 100/200 Hz, the effect gets twice or 3 times worse.


So now, i have a dillema.... Either just accept the judder, or buy a plasma screen that has 600Hz, which is perfectly dividable by 24 and doesn't have the issue....

I must admit from all the TV's i've tested, there was 1 TV that had the littelest problems with the Telecine Judder: The Sony Bravia KDL HX820.

For some reason, it was able to play back very smooth, with an occasional small judder sometimes, but not as frequent as with all the other types. Even the Sony Bravya KDL HX920, which has 800 Hz opposed to the 400Hz the HX820 uses, had more judder problems then his little brother.


Community, what say thee?
Is Plasma the way to go in Holland for perfect smooth playback? And if so, what type?

For more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_...ine_judder

Quote from the site:

"Telecine judder

The “3:2 pulldown” conversion process for 24 frame/s film to television (telecine) creates a slight error in the video signal compared to the original film frames.

This is one reason why NTSC films viewed on typical home equipment may not appear as smooth as when viewed in a cinema. The phenomenon is particularly apparent during slow, steady camera movements which appear slightly jerky when telecined.

This process is commonly referred to as telecine judder.

PAL material in which 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown has been applied, suffers from a similar lack of smoothness, though this effect is not usually called “telecine judder”.

In effect every 12th film frame is displayed for the duration of 3 PAL fields (60 milliseconds) – whereas the other 11 frames are all displayed for the duration of 2 PAL fields (40 milliseconds). This causes a slight “hiccup” in the video about twice a second."

So basicly, every1 in this country has the judder.
You can see for yourself, google for the UE46D7000. Notice how it has 400/800Hz. Now, google for the UN46D7000. It's the same TV, but the US model. Notice how this one has 480/960Hz AND Full 24P Cinema support. It's because its Hz rate is perfectly dividable by 24.

But, i did find out what makes it nearly unnoticable:

Samsung TV's (the new generation) have a setting, Game Mode, which completely turns off all image enhancers plus the frame interpolation, or Motion Plus technique, so u will get flawless picture. This is the true, original playback. Motion Plus adds additional frames in between the 24P, so it looks smoother than it actually is. It's also called the Soap Opera affect, loved by some, hated by others.

The way to go, is to NOT turn on Game Mode, but to set the Motion Plus to 'Clear'.
Next to this, turn ON the LED Motion Plus.

Now, you will have the sharp, coloured and enhanced picture quality, due most enhancers are turned on, but you don't have the extra judder that occurs when using frame interpolation on a 24P movie played on a PAL 60 Hz system, like the ones we use here in Holland.

Now, the picture looks like it's being boosted with Motion Plus, just a slight fraction less, but it looks definitly better then the Game Mode, in which everything is turned off.

Atleast now you don't have the stuttering that happens when Motion Plus is set to Standard and thus used fully.

So basicly, any1 who has a 100/200HZ TV that claims they don't have the stutter problem, is running in a mode that does not apply full frame interpolation, like the Samsung Motion Plus is. Like i said earlier in the thread, if you have never seen full Motion Plus before applied to a movie, you'd never see the difference with a 'normal' 24 playback.

I decided to stick with the UE46D7000, and use the above settings. It gives the best of both worlds. Was tempted to take a Sony Bravia KDL HX820, but this one has problems of its own.

Thanks all for the support, and hopefully other people will find this threat usefull.

Just remember, that when you live in a country that uses 100/200HZ TV's or have 50/60HZ broadcast on cable, you will NEVER be able to enjoy Full 24P Cinema.

For more info and proof on the subject, check this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p

"24p material can be converted to the PAL format with the same methods used to convert film to PAL. The most popular method is to speed up the material by 25/24 (4%). Each 24p frame will take the place of two 50i fields. This method incurs no motion artifacts other than the slightly increased speed, which is typically not noticeable. As for audio, the ~4% increase in speed raises the pitch by 0.7 of a semitone, which again typically is not noticed. Sometimes the audio is pitch shifted to restore the original pitch.

If 24p footage cannot be sped up, (for example if it were coming through a live NTSC or HD feed) it instead can be converted in a pattern where most frames were held on screen for two fields, but every half second a frame would be held for three fields. Thus the viewer would see motion stutter twice per second. This was the common result when programs were shot on film or had film portions, edited on NTSC, and then shown in PAL countries (mostly music videos). NTSC to PAL conversion also tends to blur each film frame into the next, and so is seen as a sub-optimal way to view film footage."

Kind regards,
Kami.

I live in the Netherlands, my tv does 24p, I have no judder at all.

bobo1on1 Wrote:I live in the Netherlands, my tv does 24p, I have no judder at all.

My TV doesn't give judder either, the problem only occurs when you playback NSTC movies @ 800Hz with Clear Motion rate.

What kind of TV you have? The judder won't occur if you have a plasma TV @ 600Hz, or when you aren't using any bitstreaming the effect gets very unnoticable (which i believe XMBC can't do). For some reason with bitstreaming, the effect gets enhanced alot.