Hi,
I saw a discussion regarding the video levels in xbmc and how some say it caused no video discrepancies and others say that it did/does.
Well i was going to chime in at the time, but as it was a heated debate i held off until i could get some screenshots.
So, here we go:
This is a screen shot of a correct greyscale from the mp4 video found onthe calibration disc from AVSForum:
Uploaded with
ImageShack.us
and here is what xbmc does to it by expanding it, converting and processing it:
Uploaded with
ImageShack.us
as you can see, xbmc causes the greyscale to look more like steps rather than an actual slide. This is caused by xbmc expanding video from its recorded and native 16-235 to 0-255 (pc levels) which are either incorrectly displayed on a tv, or then re compressed back to 16-235 on most hdtvs.
Some hdtvs do support full rgb, however read the small print and test them with a calibration device. They pretty much all state that while supported, there will be chroma errors etc.
Anyway,
Im not here to start an argument, i just wanted to let the devs know that some of the users are indeed correct. xbmc does damage video, you may not see it, but calibration devices do and for a video player, thats not so good.
Thats said, xbmc is a great tool, although frodo plain doesnt work for me
and i applaud your efforts. keep up the good work, and i do hope that you at least listen to some of the offerings regarding video in xbmc... they are not all falicy and conjecture, some of these reports are genuine issues that need addressing soon.
Additionally, will we see the ff 1.0 updates in frodo as i beleive this will resolve most of my current video issues with frodo?
Are u using RGB for Video Output? Or is it the same with component?
There will be no ffmpeg bump in Frodo so it will only happen in 13.0
(2012-12-22, 14:24)bimme Wrote: [ -> ]Are u using RGB for Video Output? Or is it the same with component?
This is using native 1080p HDMI! The clean greyscale is using 16-235 and provides a beautiful smooth greyscale. Using xbmc and it's awful expansion, causes the steps like appearance. No calibration on the tv end can fix this! It's destructive and done at the video level.
Please test this yourselves and post screenshots. It's a 30 second test and a free mp4 video download of 5mb from AVSForum.
I word in the tech industry, I an a bit of a videophile my self, I also have some pretty decent calibration equipment and AV hardware. I'm aware that it's not the end of the world, but for xbmc, a video player, to not play video levels, and to completely destroy a perfect clean greyscale just seems irresponsible?
Again, it's not a fight, or a moan, it's just me pointing out a fact that the devs should really stop (on occasion) assuming they know everything about everything all the time. Sometime their users are right, and this is one of those topics.
There was a big thread on this a while back, it's not a show stopper, but anyone who says xbmc has better video that mpc/vlc etc is an idiot. Those players allow you to play unmolested video, xbmc forces you to do things to video that really, it doesn't need to do? I still can't understand why in fact it even bothers to do it, Particulary when it's playing video (16-235) to a video playing drive which expects 16-235... Why on earth would you then convert it in the delivery?
It's like asking for coffee with out sugar, then your wife making coffee adding sugar and then trying to remove the sugar as she gives it to you
just makes a foken mess everywhere!
Just don't put the sugar in woman! Leave it as it is!
As for not bumping ff ... No way!
They are going to release a known buggy ff version. It was patched with major fixes to recently? Why on earth would they release a known broken version? This version is incompatible with apx 40% of files I tried on it?
It's decisions like this that honestly worry me at times?
It will lose more of its user base or they will move else where because of this. I'll have to. Even though i domt want to. I can't be the only one. I've been here a while, contributed to the community and skins, have many friends in here... But frodos video capabilitys are the moment are completely borked? Why release that half arsed effort?
Just delay the release for crying out loud. Release a fixed/working version? Fuck the timescale!
Put it to a vote!
Who is willing to wait 6 months extra for frodo is its released with a ff bump!
+1 here!
Perhaps there will be a 13.0 version in six months as we want to increase releases. Do understand that bumping ffmpeg is a mayor undertaking and we are sticking with our schedule.
I bought Panasonic's new 65" VT50 high end plasma and I now started noticing horrible black crushing (calibrated). I basically have to use an external player to get rid of it, which invalidates a lot of the great xbmc functionality.
I just hope DSPlayer will become part of the main trunk at some point
Ffmpeg is great in many aspects due to the cross-platform support and the vast amount of codecs and functions, but the focus in ffmpeg is quantity and not quality.
Well as for now, i'm glad there's ppl still working on DSplayer builds up to date.
I would hate to leave a great software like XBMC, and it is not something i plan to do shortly.
I love XBMC and i just hope everyone can keep a nice and moderate tone and devs can also understand users.
Peace!!
(2012-12-22, 15:28)phunqe Wrote: [ -> ]I bought Panasonic's new 65" VT50 high end plasma and I now started noticing horrible black crushing (calibrated). I basically have to use an external player to get rid of it, which invalidates a lot of the great xbmc functionality.
I just hope DSPlayer will become part of the main trunk at some point
Ffmpeg is great in many aspects due to the cross-platform support and the vast amount of codecs and functions, but the focus in ffmpeg is quantity and not quality.
I agree,
I too use an external player to bypass this issue (which is a shame) and agree that something needs to be done.
To actually go ahead though, knowing that this version of ffmpeg is borked, ignoring the test results from users and releasing it anyway... Because of a schedule no one cares about is mad? Eden was delayed by about 3 months wasn't it?
Meh.. Anyway. I suppose it's no big deal, I just have higher standards/morals thn most and usually get let down as my expectations are higher than that of most, so I'm at least partly to blame
For the record, I'd never release a known borked release a "final" no matter what ie schedule I was working for! I'll release my work when it's fully functional and using stable releases of products it utilises. The current ffmpeg of frodo was patched with "major" bug fixes as it was in such bad shape.
Many users confirm it here, the list of users with video errors, glitches, white lines, jittery, crashes, slow playback etc is incredible. Couple that with the audio issues and we have one awful release ahead of us
Again, I'm not fighting, moaning or having a go.. l just generally feel let down with some of the devs moves recently, it's jut an awakening that I didn't want... The realisation that the days of xbmc for me are coming to an end
I literally can't use frodo due to video/audio errors
I'll use Eden until its done.. Then move on I suppose... I feel like the littlest hobo!
Well you get payed in your job and we don't. You're probably one of the small percentages that has problems (and don't go pointing to all the threads because people only complain when it's not working and stay silent when it is so this is in no way representative) and sorry but we are not going to delay whatever you think of it. If Eden works stick with that because no one forces you to upgrade and you try again with 13.0
Let's hope when bumped a lot of problems will go away and AE is in better shape by then.
There are lost of complaints about the video on frodo, a lot! Not just here, but on the dark side too and else where such as AVForums etc. It's probably the most common collective complaint I think I've ever seen.
There is a strange sentiment contained within the words you have written? You assume to much and may I say, assume very negatively.
Even when i do a freebie for someone, id never do a half arsed job and knowingly send out a buggy piece of work, paid or unpaid. It's a moral and standards issue not a cost issue?
There would be 0 complaints if something is pushed back to ensure the best product available. Look at one of the projects I am currently involved in "Project C.A.R.S" we all collectively decided to delay again (at the request of the community) by apx 6 months to polish, optimise and evolve the physics further. Id rather that, than release another POS software like F1 2012 from shitmasters with 13 post release patches that still haven't fixed the game.
Life is not about rushin out shit anymore, people are willing to help, take time, test and make it right. Releasing a broken version is an embarrassing decision to make in 2012 and what you have said means that you justify sending out tat just because? And that we should not expect any more as the devs do it for free? Do all the devs really feel this way, do they all agree with this sentiment? I'm shocked if so? Do they all really feel that because they don't get paid, we should expect a rushed and buggy release?... That's bad news for us, but thanks for letting us know.
Just out of curiosity, What exactly are you doing toward coding Frodo, I'm curious about the "we" comment you made? Are you insinuating that you are helping contribute code for these parts of the tree?
I know the audio devs and video devs, but what exactly are "you" doing that is confined within this "we" of which you speak? Id expect a only dev to make those kinds of hard/factual statements and you are insinuating that you are one, what's your role in the grand scheme things, are you just a web presence, if so, I'd much rather get the opinion of an active dev to openly discuss the matter instead of reading these rather passive aggressive posts. Jut saying.
You see, this happened previously were a release was delayed at the request of the devs, and items were actually removed at the request of the devs... It's not unheard of, and is openly welcomed by many.
Better dead than smeg!
Expect? You're throwing that word around a lot being as I don't see any patches linked in this thread. If you want something fixed, fix it. Don't stand on your soap box complaining. We work on xbmc in our spare time for free because we love it. We share it with you for free because we love it. I suggest you curb this false sense of entitlement you seem to think you have or take your business elsewhere. Refunds are available at the front counter.
Hi PatrickBateman! Perhaps you are unaware of how Team XBMC operates. The input of every member is considered equally important, whether coder, tester, forum moderator, wiki chief, or (if we had them) janitor. Decisions, particularly release decisions, are made by a consensus vote of the entire team, based upon advice from developers working on specific projects. Attacking one of our team members as not being important enough or knowledgeable enough to talk to is a great way to get either totally ignored or potentially banned by another member who thinks you're being abusive.
So please keep that in mind. Also, comparing any release of XBMC to "POS software like F1 2012 from shitmasters" is not going to go well.
Now, with that said, l let me help break this down for you. When making release decisions, we basically have 3 categories. Features, Bugs-Stoppers, Other Bugs.
The Three Release Decision Categories
A Stopper is a bug that will cause XBMC to break in some way. For example, if you play three movies in a row, and your computer suddenly shuts down because of an XBMC error, that's a Stopper that would prevent XBMC from being officially released gold.
A Feature is some coding piece in development that everyone would love to have, but simply isn't ready to be merged in for the current window. We could always postpone the window for a Feature, but the whole point of having XBMC versions is to allow for future updates to have new Features, so that'd be silly. PVR support is an example of this kind of feature.
Finally, Other Bugs are bugs that we are aware of that are simply unfixable in the time allotted for the release, but that aren't going to cause major problems with the entire XBMC experience. For example, you might say that the fact that XBMC can't make use of the hardware decoder on most Android devices is a bug. The fact that OSX has issues with music track transitions is another bug that isn't going to break XBMC, would/will likely require a great deal of effort and time to fix, and is therefore getting pushed back a few months to either a point release after the initial release or the next version.
Why do we operate this way, allowing bugs to slip through? Because we are software developers. In the history of software, there has never been a perfectly bug free software release. There will always be a push/pull between getting new features into the hands of users as quickly as possible and holding off release until everything is as close to perfect as possible. With an agreed upon timeline at the beginning of the Beta process, the Team effectively acknowledges that they are going to give up some of that perfection so that users don't have wait an absurdly long time just to get their hands on features they've been waiting 8 months to finally use, while at the same time giving the Team an out with the acknowledgement of a Stopper category.
What Category Does Your Problem Fit Under?
Now, let's try to define your problem: banding on a test screen. We can pretty well ignore the 16-235/0-255 stuff, because that's just part of the cause. The result is banding. It appears everyone is in agreement that this will likely be solved by upgrading to the current version of ffmpeg.
Now, let's define where this problem/solution falls on our list. Is it a Stopper? No. It doesn't cause XBMC to crash, and the vast majority of people (who aren't constantly on AVSForum, which you've got to admit is a pretty specific videophile/audiophile bunch) either don't notice it or don't care about it. In fact, according to your original post, many people have argued that it doesn't even happen at all. (I say that not to suggest that it doesn't actually happen, but rather to point out how unnoticed the behavior can go in the eyes of many.)
So if it's not a Stopper, what is it? Well, the behavior itself is clearly a bug, which we can mark in the Other category. Unfortunately, the solution, updating FFMPEG, is a Feature that will take a herculean effort for XBMC 13, though my understanding is that our devs in that area are definitely going to try to make that push.
Conclusion
Hopefully, that answers your question. If you disagree with our release philosophy, please allow me to assure you that neither we, nor any other organization that releases a piece of software with several million lines of code are going to change, so you may as well stop beating your head against that brick wall right now.
Question, have you considered trying to get DSPlayer (or equal solution) up to par and into the main branch?
It would let us Windows users use what we want basically, since that is where the major gripe is. It's being locked into ffmpeg on a platform where there's a lot of different codec packages/implementations to choose from. Some of them focused of picture quality.
I might be wrong, but at the current state of DSPlayer that effort is seemingly only a small fraction of the ffmpeg upgrade task.
It probably take make effort than you know
Here is a link to the exact gray scale graphs posted earlier for any one who may have trouble finding it.
http://www.w6rz.net/avshd709/MP4-2c.exe There are quite a few test pattern's in the file _ click on "Misc Patterns" and then "Additional" and finally "Grey Scale Ramp"
I would consider all people on this forum to be video-files, if not, they soon will become one. I have a copy of Arc Soft TMT 5 version .120 and it displays the gray scale ramp correctly, but is not displayed correctly in Frodo or Windows Media for that matter.
Having to pay for TMT 5, I would expect nothing less then the gray scale to be correct, but xbmc being a free player _ well we really can't complain. One of the most annoying things when I watch a movie is when you see colour banding, eg in a sun rise or sun set, all of this discussion about black levels has prompted me to make some changes in the NVIDIA advanced settings and I will find out tonight if the banding is gone in TMT 5. I'll test Frodo as well Eden and report back.