(2015-11-18, 14:14)Dark_Slayer Wrote: [ -> ]Skipping one frame every 40 seconds is not stutter. I've heard all the nonsense in the world related to this, "I'm really sensitive," "I edit video for a living," "my TV is really big," yada yada. Missing one frame per second is noticeable, but you would only notice one every 40 seconds if you stopped watching the content and instead watched for artifacts.
It's not nonsense. It's really annoying. It really sticks out on any linear motion. Sure - you won't spot it on static content, but I definitely see it instantly on moving stuff. I'm not looking for it - but I can't ignore it when I see it.
Full disclosure - part of my job is to spot faulty video. If I were to let through content that had a frame repeat or drop every 40" I wouldn't be doing the job I did. I have a reputation for spotting this stuff first time, every time. Same with lip sync... Doesn't mean I'm not thoroughly enjoying the content and watching it, just means that I'm capable of doing my job...
(And you have no idea how horrible I find 3:2 pull-down as a European brought up with 2:2 and 4% speedup...)
Hi noggin. Can you confirm that this issue will be less noticeable on a 120hz tv? In theory such tv's wouldn't need to use 3:2 pull down, right?
(2015-11-22, 14:30)Gmjh Wrote: [ -> ]Hi noggin. Can you confirm that this issue will be less noticeable on a 120hz tv? In theory such tv's wouldn't need to use 3:2 pull down, right?
Depends on the source video - lots of TVs won't remove 3:2 if it is present on their source. However if your TV is fed a 1080/24p (or 23.976p) input then a 24p-friendly TV should display this without 3:2. I believe some TVs will detect the mixed field frames in 3:2 from 1080/60i, but only to deinterlace to 1080/60p with 3:2 frame repetition.
I wouldn't expect 3:2 repetition to be removed if the source video is carried in a 60i or 60p wrapper, but would hope it would be on a decent TV when fed 1080/24p native. (On Sony sets this is "24p True Cinema" I think)
Our Sony 40W4000 (c.2008) displayed 24p at 48Hz (but with constant backlight you don't get 48Hz large-area-flicker that you would get with CRT, Plasma or OLED transmissive tech) and our current Sony set displays at a higher frame rate (I'm expecting 96 or 120Hz)
Our first HD set was a 40W2000 (bought in 2007) and would only accept 50/60Hz inputs and so Blu-ray 24p stuff was fed and displayed with 3:2. We had to stop using the TV within a year - we couldn't stand the 3:2 as more and more of our viewing was Blu-ray. UK movie channels were much nicer to watch (as they were 2:2 50i)
Ok thanks. Yes I meant from a 24p source. Looks like I should get a 120hz tv. Thanks.
(2015-11-23, 08:58)Gmjh Wrote: [ -> ]Ok thanks. Yes I meant from a 24p source. Looks like I should get a 120hz tv. Thanks.
You don't have to have a 120Hz TV for this not to be a problem. My Sony 40W4000 was a standard 50/60Hz TV which also had 48Hz (I believe) support for 24p True Cinema. It had no 100/120Hz processing but still displayed 24p content with no 3:2. These days these may be rarer though.
I don't understand how a tv with 50/60hz display can process 24 with no 3:2 pull down or some other processing. Surely it's not possible. My lg tv is currently showing kodi in 24hz and it has 24hz support but has to be using 3:2 to do it. How can 60hz process 24 smoothly as the math doesn't seem possible.
(2015-11-23, 19:13)Gmjh Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand how a tv with 50/60hz display can process 24 with no 3:2 pull down or some other processing.
It can't - but 48Hz is very close to 50Hz... As I said - my 50/60Hz 40W4000 also had 48Hz support I believe (in other words it accepted 24/50/60Hz inputs and displayed them at 48/50/60Hz I believe). Pretty certain it wasn't doing 72Hz - though very difficult to tell. My instinct is it was 48Hz. Flicker isn't an issue with LCDs with a constant backlight - but I doubt it was doing 24Hz refresh (as that would be much further away from 50/60Hz in clock rate terms).
Quote:Surely it's not possible. My lg tv is currently showing kodi in 24hz and it has 24hz support but has to be using 3:2 to do it. How can 60hz process 24 smoothly as the math doesn't seem possible.
It's entirely possible if you have a 48Hz option. (48i is also 24psf so there is a 48Hz display standard)
My lg tv (a 50/60hz model) is definitely giving a 24hz output on kodi. The info button shows 50hz for uk tv,60hz for the nexus player and 24hz for kodi. But that results in 3:2 judder. And I still don't understand why all 50hz broadcasts on uk tv or 60hz streams from Netflix , both showing 24hz films or tv shows,have no noticeable judder at all.
(2015-11-24, 00:17)Gmjh Wrote: [ -> ]My lg tv (a 50/60hz model) is definitely giving a 24hz output on kodi. The info button shows 50hz for uk tv,60hz for the nexus player and 24hz for kodi. But that results in 3:2 judder. And I still don't understand why all 50hz broadcasts on uk tv or 60hz streams from Netflix , both showing 24hz films or tv shows,have no noticeable judder at all.
50Hz TV shows 24p content with 4% speed-up, showing it at 25p with 2:2 pulldown. That's why movies have shorter durations on TV in Europe than in the cinema (even without edits) It's also why music and dialogue may seem a little off.
60Hz TV shows 24p content at normal speed but with 3:2 pulldown (one 24p frame shown 3 times, the next twice). I see the judder this adds. Others don't.
Ok thanks. In that case it's very odd that I see no judder at all on nexus player 60hz showing 24p but it's a constant obvious judder when kodi shows 24p on either 24 hz or 60hz. Both use 3:2. I suspect I'll never know why. Would it be of any use asking kodi to speed a file up by 4%?
(2015-11-24, 01:59)Gmjh Wrote: [ -> ]Ok thanks. In that case it's very odd that I see no judder at all on nexus player 60hz showing 24p but it's a constant obvious judder when kodi shows 24p on either 24 hz or 60hz. Both use 3:2. I suspect I'll never know why. Would it be of any use asking kodi to speed a file up by 4%?
You do have "Adjust Display Refresh Rate" enabled on start/stop don't you?
However, to do what you want, if you have a 50Hz capable display, and fix the output resolution at 50Hz, and switch off "Adjust display refresh rate" , but switched on "Sync playback to display", you should get 24p content replayed at 25p (and shown at 50Hz) with 4% speed-up. This is assuming the Nexus supports this (Android and refresh rates are not always good bed fellows).
Hi. Yes I have adjust display refresh rate on normally.
I really wanted your suggestion to work ☺ So I changed the refresh rate to 50 with the tvhz app, checked my tv was showing 50hz, and did all the other things you said. The result is that is consistent with no sudden glitches. But that's mainly because it's consistently bumpy throughout.
In theory following your instructions should mean that 24p sources look the same as a uk 50hz broadcast of 24p but it sadly doesn't. This seems, and I stress seems, to be a fault of kodi as everything else is doing what it should be doing.
I've now turned it back to 60hz with adjust display refresh rate on and the picture is back to being absolutely perfect with the occasional slight glitch that looks like it'll be there until I get a120hz tv. It's maddening to me that I cannot get kodi to do what my 50hz tv broadcasts or 60hz Netflix streams do. Thanks for your help and suggestion though. Much appreciated.
As I said - I have no idea what Android does. I run OpenElec on x86, Raspberry Pi 2 and ODroid C1. When I want to watch 24p on a TV that only supports 50 and 60Hz I always use a fixed 50Hz and a sync playback to display to do the 4% speed-up 2:2 at 50Hz trick as I can't watch 60Hz with 3:2 pulldown for any length of time. (You have no idea how annoying Netflix not doing an easy non-3:2 viewing route is...)
One other question - where are you based? US TVs don't handle 50Hz at all well.
I'm in stoke.
I'm not sure if I can even run openelec on the nexus player. A quick Google search shows a couple of people asking with no replies. I'm not sure if android /nexus player is the problem as it plays (to my eyes) perfect streams from Netflix and Amazon prime videos, both on 60hz.
I could try streaming my videos via plex but I really didn't want to get my hulking old pc involved in anything and was really hoping just to stream via the nexus player and dlna or direct via the np usb connection. Direct play from the usb port and via dlna results in exactly the same thing btw.
The Nexus Player is a Google product so runs Android. You can't install OpenElec on it AFAIK.
Unless your TV is doing frame-interpolation (i.e. filling in the missing frames) any 24p content (movies, US TV drama etc.) played on Netflix or Amazon and output at 60Hz will have 3:2 pulldown. Some people see this, some people don't. I can't watch it, but other people don't notice it. Be grateful you don't see it.
If you are seeing different artefacts when watching content in Kodi on your Nexus Player then it sounds like you are just suffering from frame drops or skips.