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Full Version: HOW TO - Kodi 2D - 3D - UHD (4k) HDR Guide Internal & External Players
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(2018-06-04, 16:09)Warner306 Wrote: [ -> ]
(2018-06-04, 06:36)ajamils Wrote: [ -> ] 
 I don't think there is anything wrong with that rule. name="3d" is not necessary. Someone else was having a problem with that particular rule with DSPlayer. I don't know why it isn't working. It could be Emby for Kodi, but I don't have a fix. 
Name is added by DSPlayer, when I use it to create a list of Player merit via Kodi. 

When using MadVR/DSplayer in Kodi, should I turn off the refresh rate change via Kodi? It seems like if I don't turn it on and play a 4K movie via Kodi/DSPlayer, Kodi changes into small Window and I have to press "\" to make it full screen again. I have setup my desktop to 1080p/60, so when I play 4K movie it is MadVR scales the desktop accordingly.
(2018-06-04, 19:00)ajamils Wrote: [ -> ]
(2018-06-04, 16:09)Warner306 Wrote: [ -> ]
(2018-06-04, 06:36)ajamils Wrote: [ -> ] 
 I don't think there is anything wrong with that rule. name="3d" is not necessary. Someone else was having a problem with that particular rule with DSPlayer. I don't know why it isn't working. It could be Emby for Kodi, but I don't have a fix.   
Name is added by DSPlayer, when I use it to create a list of Player merit via Kodi. 

When using MadVR/DSplayer in Kodi, should I turn off the refresh rate change via Kodi? It seems like if I don't turn it on and play a 4K movie via Kodi/DSPlayer, Kodi changes into small Window and I have to press "\" to make it full screen again. I have setup my desktop to 1080p/60, so when I play 4K movie it is MadVR scales the desktop accordingly.  
 I would try removing the name="3D" manually by opening the playercorefactory.xml in the userdata folder. It doesn't look right. Otherwise, if you want to use DSPlayer, you may have to launch these files manually: C -> Play using... -> VideoPlayer.

You can use either Kodi's refresh rate switching or madVR's, but not both at the same time. Kodi's refresh rate switching can apply only to VideoPlayer or both players, depending on how you configure it.
As for the madVR discussion...

If you don't care about tweaking the image, you might not care about any advantages provided by madVR. Even at basic settings, I can notice an improvement, but it is not going to blow your socks off if you are happy with VideoPlayer. I enjoy using madVR, so I am willing to buy an appropriate GPU to use it. The one thing that is always noticeable is the upscaling quality. Over many years, I've been accustomed to the look of madVR's upscaling. It does look different than any other media player I've used, and can even bring a quality improvement to average and poor content. That look attributed to the upscaling is really the only signature aspect of madVR's image that is easy to understand. I wouldn't switch back and forth a few times and decide to change. I'd spend a few weeks watching content, at which point, you might become accustomed to way things look with a different media player. That's been my experience. I no longer have the same experience using VideoPlayer. It definitely does some things differently.
I should also add, I recently saw a review comparing the Apple TV 4K to an Oppo 4K UHD Blu-ray.

The Apple TV 4K was connected to 50 MB/s Internet connection and was streaming a 4K UHD Dolby Vision movie at 20-25 MB/s. The Oppo, by comparison, was reporting a bitrate of 50-85 MB/s. Two LG OLEDs were placed side-by-side showing the same content. The professional reviewer had a hard time seeing any difference between the two at a normal viewing distance. If he went up to the screen, he could spot subtle detail improvements with the 4K UHD Blu-ray. And some really dark scenes had slight macroblocking on the Apple TV 4K. But, even at half the bitrate of the Blu-ray, the Apple TV 4K held up pretty well. If you don't care about these small differences, you might not be the target market for madVR. Of course, poor sources would benefit much more from the Oppo, and the same would be true with madVR.

The Apple TV can't bitstream HD audio (so no Blu-ray Atmos or DTS:X) and it uses a nerfed version of Kodi (MrMc). But, unlike Android, the SOC processor seems to be pretty good. It likely uses a frame buffer larger than 10-bits to not lose any bits during image processing and probably includes chroma upscaling for 10-bit sources. It is not rocket science to get a good image to the display. But even the Kodi flagship, LibreELEC, cuts corners to get the image to the display in the name of being fast on low-powered hardware. That same image processing is present on the Windows version of Kodi, mostly due to lack of Windows developers to take advantage of the more powerful Windows hardware.
(2018-06-04, 19:19)Warner306 Wrote: [ -> ]If you don't care about tweaking the image, you might not care about any advantages provided by madVR. Even at basic settings, I can notice an improvement, but it is not going to blow your socks off if you are happy with VideoPlayer.
 I disagree.  It will blow anyone's socks off if they experienced it provided their display can harness it and most modern displays can, even the less expensive ones.  Aside from the basic combinations madVR has refined, the newer additional algorithms exceed what was once thought possible.  Since incorporating the RCA increment hot key on my remote, artifacts present on many titles (not just poor sources, even some of the remastered UHD's let alone lower resolution stuff) cleans them up perfectly... at the cost of SOME detail.  The tradeoff is welcomed while presenting the content so much, much, better.  And on the fly from the remote.... knocks my socks off.  Other players deal with this hard coded and do not offer incremental adjustments which becomes VERY important regarding the trade off in detail.  Either too much or too little and titles (those with artifacts even if only in certain scenes) demands a different level of intensity retaining just enough detail while eliminating artifacts completely.  For me, it's the only madVR setting I find myself adjusting in real time should I notice (which is like a punch in the face) artifacting or mosquito noise (most often noticed in out of focus background scenes) and once set, I can put the remote down and not think about it again and enjoy the movie.  What is your 'go to' on the fly adjustment you gravitate to, if any?

ajamils, have you tried the method here using official KODI with MPC external player coupled with LAV Filters and madVR or have you always been using DSPlayer and adding an MPC player to it?  I think some of your problems are DSPlayer problems exclusively and not inherent to both.  Given the severity and length things have been problematic, it would be worth a try if you haven't already.  Regardless of adding any KODI as your front end, were you able to get things working proper when stripped down to the basic Windows Explorer level?  If not, are you concluding madVR and/or KODI are making playback possible where Windows Explorer alone could not?
I also like RCA. But it clearly doesn’t like bad macroblocking. I don’t think madshi watches any sources that bad, so that’s probably why.

Before NGU came along, all of the upscalers had some amount of ringing. If you watch something in VideoPlayer set to Lanczos3 (without anti-ringing), all of the actor’s heads have slight halos around them. This is so annoying, to me. Using deep learning or neural network scaling like NGU eliminates this, as there is no edge sharpening; the scaler just draws anything it considers an edge. NGU Anti-Alias might also help with this with the chroma layer like NGU Sharp does with the luma.

I still don’t think the video renderer is the most important part of the chain, but it is definitely a factor. It does help to be nerdy about video.

It is quite amazing how many questions I have to answer about madVR every day. I need to find some sort of auto reply for that...
(2018-06-04, 20:57)brazen1 Wrote: [ -> ]ajamils, have you tried the method here using official KODI with MPC external player coupled with LAV Filters and madVR or have you always been using DSPlayer and adding an MPC player to it?  I think some of your problems are DSPlayer problems exclusively and not inherent to both.  Given the severity and length things have been problematic, it would be worth a try if you haven't already.  Regardless of adding any KODI as your front end, were you able to get things working proper when stripped down to the basic Windows Explorer level?  If not, are you concluding madVR and/or KODI are making playback possible where Windows Explorer alone could not? 
No, I have not tried using Kodi with MPC. In the past I had always only used Kodi's built-in player. I just recently came across Kodi with built-in DSPlayer and been trying to get it setup as the default player. I do use MPC-BE/HC to test out files outside Kodi. 

I have given up on trying to make everything work at the level I was originally trying to. I think my main issue is that I'm using mkv rips of 3D movies which are not 1-to-1 frame packed version so neither MadVR or any other player recognizes them to automatically enable 3D mode. To make matters even worse is that I have 4K HDR, 1080p, 720p and SD movies in my collection so I want MadVR for up-scaling and HDR pass through. 

For now the only solution I've found is to keep my desktop resolution at 1080p/60 and use DSPlayer in Kodi for everything except 3D mkvs. For all movies, DSPlayer +MadVR upscales to 4K and when I want to watch 3D movies, I just use Kodi's built-in player which show movie in two images and then forcing my projector to 3D-SBS mode makes the movie into 3D. This solution is only possible if the resolution is at 1080p/60, hence the reason for keeping Windows resolution at that. Not a perfect solution but I got frustrated trying to make everything work.  Undecided
Well then I guess we/you are not going to know if the official KODI vs the forked KODI would have made a difference.
So, brazen, I know you are a 4K guy, so you might be curious to know that madVR has a new algorithm coming for 4K content. I was talking to madshi in another thread and he said he is going to try something experimental that is 5x slower than NGU for 4K content. I'm guessing it is some type of real-time tone mapping algorithm. At 5x slower than NGU, not even a 1080 Ti will likely be able to run it, though. I don't have a 4K display and I can't see myself building a new PC to put a 1080 Ti in it, but it is interesting. It could be crap, too, but it could be useful. I sometimes wonder who his friends are who appear to have advanced degrees in mathematics. Ehanching 4K content is probably the way to go, though. I was looking at an Apple TV 4K, myself, with a fast Internet connection when 4K content becomes the de facto standard. madshi will have to work hard to keep madVR relevant in the future when 4K content and high streaming bitrates are the new normal.
To my eyes, original UHD doesn't need any enhancements.  NGU Sharp does the job presenting it.  Lower settings look equally as good and are unnoticeable to me no matter the seating distance.  Even various players look very good like DVDFab player with no madVR. I think the techniques they use are actually KODI's.  I've looked at some of that players code and it's kind of obvious.  This on 65 inches of real estate though.  For larger screens, this might show differences I suppose simply because the pixels are larger and might introduce detail otherwise incomprehensive although 65" to 85" is not a good comparison as the increase is not that great imo.  Comparing with a PJ at 100" to say 150" would be although no PJ is going to match the clarity of a panel.  We are also centering around chroma.

Squashed compressed UHD sources would be a completely different story.  For instance, remastered 1080p to 2160p is nice, no doubt about it.  But each and every one has a certain amount of deficit inherited.  I find if it isn't cleaned up, it's not as pleasing as original UHD.  I do understand they were shot in 4k and scaled to 2k.  Why they can't be remastered like a modern UHD, I don't know?  I leave it to the mathematicians.  Perhaps the cameras of the era had everything to do with it.  The deficits would and do need to be algo'd and if the info simply isn't there, you're starting with a canvas that will never be as clean as the original although the algo's applied can be quite amazing.

Whether what is streamed to an Apple TV or any other device is compressed or sent fully untouched matters.  Hi Def audio is often omitted already.  The rumor Hi Def audio will be included in the future makes me wonder if something video will be sacrificed to accommodate the extra bandwidth higher audio requires.  Maybe streaming services and devices already incorporate their own algo's?  What does 720p look like streamed without the madVR touch?  Or DVD titles? 

So, madVR may have some competition remaining relevant as 4k becomes mainstream but what of 1080p stuff that will never be remastered?  This will remain a niche.  As will 1080p remastered to 2160p, cleaned by madVR vs the streamed content.  I understand most will only be interested in new modern UHD productions.  The 8k horizon is something else to consider at even higher bitrates while streaming services are barely addressing 4k.  I doubt madVR is going anywhere except forward but that is madshi's decision.  I too read he's nearing his latest collaborated creation and look forward to it.  Even if my GPU can't handle it, I applaud the continued advancement.  I'm pretty happy with what I have but if I'm offered an edge that blows my dress up, I'll adjust.

My tastes may be different than most too.  I embrace the look of video over that of film.  I've become addicted to the clarity that is undeniable.  Most prefer the grain and haze through the screen door look of film.... what they were raised on.  madVR would only ruin it for these tastes since it cleans up detrimental effects film introduces.  There's even an add grain setting for these tastes although I don't think anyone uses it.  Even the video cameras shooting commercials instead of the film cameras that used to shoot them are noticeable at 720p/1080i broadcasts.  Some of the clarity in those commercials will knock yer' socks off even if you're not a fan of commercials which most of us are not.  Even as crappy as GoPro or iPhone for that matter.  There is a pretty interesting title that goes into some depth about the subject called Side by Side (2012).  Although somewhat outdated, you will get 1st hand opinions from those in the industry.  In a nutshell, shooting something directly to the chip digitally vs burned to nitrate opens a lot of doors and closes many others.  The ones that close are for cinematographers/colorists as the editing is real time and easier.  With this in mind and long time industry jobs on the line, no wonder so many cling and propagate the advantage film will always have over "cheaper" video.  This alone reduces production costs immensely I'd imagine.  Pass it to the consumer I say.  I'd bet many of those opinions have changed.  Check it out sometime.

OT.  NiCe close in the stock market today.  YeeHaw!
With a good internet connection, an Apple TV 4K source does a good job of rivaling Blu-ray quality, for most people. There are currently only small differences. In the comparison I saw, it took a 50 MB/s connection to get this quality. As Internet speeds get faster, full Blu-ray bitrates with HD audio should be possible.

I like the Apple TV 4K for covering most of the bases, with the limitations of certain licensing deals in mind. It does color space switching, frame rate matching, Dolby Vision, Dolby Atmos through DD+ and has a catalogue of all the recent UHD releases that are upgraded automatically with any new audio or video features. It can't bitstream anything DTS and can't do anything but decode HD audio to PCM, so no TrueHD Atmos. It's not a good platform to use Kodi. It's upscaling is not bad, but not great. And it can be expensive to collect movies in iTunes, pay a fee for 4K Netflix and use any other paid add-ons. Also, any title with Dolby Vision support contains a badly-converted HDR10 core for displays that don't support Dolby Vision, so you really need a Dolby Vision display. It has a good processor and clearly Apple cares about quality. I expect the next Nvidia Shield to match feature parity with the Apple TV 4K, but that remains to be seen. The Shield would be a good platform for Kodi, but it really sucks at the moment.

And, I was mistaken about the new madVR algorithm. Apparently, it applies to all content. madshi was intending to sell it to video production artists and offer it for free with madVR. He was arguing with me about tone mapping at AVSForums, so I left and went on to something else...
(2018-06-04, 17:52)brazen1 Wrote: [ -> ]A GTX 1050 has 2GB or memory.  A GTX 1050Ti has 4GB.  2GB of memory is insufficient for most demands.  4GB meets most requirements and allows ample madVR algorithms to compute.  More memory would allow even higher madVR settings that might be considered overkill as quality improvement is unnoticeable.  However, madshi does release new algorithms from time to time requiring more processing strength and reserve so a little head room is always advisable.  That said, I am able to utilize all the algos I require to date but any intensive additions in the future may require me to lower basic processing to take advantage of it/them which wouldn't be ideal using my GTX 960 4GB.  If I was 'step up', it would be a GTX 1060 6GB since I know the 60 series is sufficient and reasonably priced.  A 70 or 80 series would help future proof but I can't justify the price based on todays video needs and I don't game to take advantage of the extra headroom.  I suppose when the day comes I need a card as strong as the 1080, newer cards will be widely available and the 1080 I can buy used at a discount by then.

DVDFab Player v.3 or v.5 video processing is hard coded.  There's not much in the way of custom tailoring or adjustments.  It does produce a good picture though while most importantly being menu capable.  madVR is always going to offer hands on fine tuning adjustments that are passed to compatible players.  Quality wise, it simply can't be rivaled.  When menus are of no importance, my 'go to' will always be madVR with compatible players.  For users who prefer convenience and versatility over quality, the combos of those 3 players makes sense.  Not everyone is interested in the intricacies involved squeezing performance from their setups and are perfectly satisfied using hard coded processing with limited refining adjustments offered in various players.  Imo, many of the refinements madVR accomplishes are not noticeable enough to impress the common viewer.  I've toggled things on/off and asked others if they notice the difference and was asked what changed?  Although I know what changed because I'm looking for it, others simply don't really care.  There are some things madVR enhances that are undeniably noticed so...…

All this in mind, considering the amounts invested in all our equipment and environments, we, as enthusiasts, out of shear passion, should probably be very interested in obtaining the highest quality and versatility possible especially by utilizing the 'freebies' which are of no additional cost and allow us to unbridle our investments.  This of course requires no more out of pocket money but does require some intermediate knowledge, time, patience, and desire.
 Thanks much brazen1, that makes a lot of sense -- and thank you for sharing additional knowledge here. Every little bit adds up to better understanding. 

With abundant news of newer nVidia cards (1180 or 2080) dropping July 30th, I'll probably wait for a few & see if prices drop for 1060/1070/1080 cards, at least used ones. So I don't think I'll rush into anything right away. 

My primary HTPC has a GTX 1080 and I'm running MPC/MadVR with very high settings & excellent results. This discussion has mainly been focussed at my secondary HTPC in the bedroom which doesn't host any media, only streams it from the main HTPC. This is an older Sandy Bridge/i5 HTPC w/ GT 1030 mainly for streaming media (Kodi) and games (Steam) from the main system. 

Being the secondary system, I'm not overly enthusiastic about spending the time & knowledge in getting the MPC/MadVR results on this system. Kodi & PDVD work great for all non-4K HDR stuff, and for 4K HDR I've been using DVDFab without any issues. Right now I'm going to continue to do so, and may not actually tamper with it in future either. 

One thing I wanted to throw out there as well -- I was testing 4K HDR playback in VLC 3.0 "Vetinari" release. It doesn't do 4K UHD HDR ISO like DVDFab does, but for 4K UHD HDR MKV playback, I found it to be pretty solid & comparable to anything I saw in DVDFab. I don't have that videophile eye as some do, but I could see nothing wrong with it. Looked pretty good & HDR worked out of the box like DVDFab. 

Just wondering if anyone else gave it a shot?

Thanks.
Is VLC auto-switching into HDR mode or using the Windows OS HDR toggle? It would be nice to have another player on Windows that will auto-switch.

The CEO of Nvidia recently stated new GPUs won't be coming out for a long time. That seems to contrary to other reports, but that did come from the CEO.
(2018-06-07, 19:11)Warner306 Wrote: [ -> ]Is VLC auto-switching into HDR mode or using the Windows OS HDR toggle? It would be nice to have another player on Windows that will auto-switch.

The CEO of Nvidia recently stated new GPUs won't be coming out for a long time. That seems to contrary to other reports, but that did come from the CEO.

The few different articles I read were implying that the CEO was essentially throwing the reports, rumours and news off-track by making that comment, and wasn't true.
I believe a day or two after his statement, multiple business magazines and tech mags reported the July 30th release date.

I can't claim to know the truth because I don't. Maybe the release date reports are inaccurate. Not sure. Either could be the case. I'm any event, with all this new swirling, I'll wait on any GTX purchase.

VLC is not using Windows HDR toggle. I did check that. My understanding is that it's auto-switching to HDR mode. On my Samsung set I can confirm that HDR was not displayed but when I played HDR media in VLC Vetinari, it did switch and displayed HDR. And then back again to no HDR after media was stopped.
(2018-06-07, 01:46)luci5r Wrote: [ -> ]
(2018-06-04, 17:52)brazen1 Wrote: [ -> ]It doesn't do 4K UHD HDR ISO like DVDFab does
Would you be kind enough to check something?  Double click an hdr.iso in Windows Explorer and navigate to the new drive letter mount.  Open BDMV folder.  Right click index.bdmv and select to open with VLC.  What happens?  If it opens and envokes HDR mode (Windows HDR switch remaining off), I'm going to give it a go and do some comparisons.