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i have an LG oled tv and its taken me a long time to get a picture I like but also to get the colour space setup correctly. What i am finding though is that when I start KODI the menu is washed out even though my desktop settings are set correctly. My black clipping is correct both playing and on youtube so there is a problem with KODI in that its showing the menu at the incorrect colour space.

Here is my setup.

pixel full RGB 4:4:4
ati card colour range 0-255
Kodi colour range correctly set a t 16-235

If I set KODI to 0-255 the movies are too dark and it destroys my black clipping, even if I bring the brightness up to compensate it added noise to the image as it obviously doing an extra colour space conversion it should not be doing.

Is there a hack where we can get the menu to darken so it not washed out, ideally we should have a colour space for both the menu and output.
(2016-04-05, 14:17)stoolzo Wrote: [ -> ]i have an LG oled tv and its taken me a long time to get a picture I like but also to get the colour space setup correctly. What i am finding though is that when I start KODI the menu is washed out even though my desktop settings are set correctly. My black clipping is correct both playing and on youtube so there is a problem with KODI in that its showing the menu at the incorrect colour space.

Here is my setup.

pixel full RGB 4:4:4
ati card colour range 0-255
Kodi colour range correctly set a t 16-235

If I set KODI to 0-255 the movies are too dark and it destroys my black clipping, even if I bring the brightness up to compensate it added noise to the image as it obviously doing an extra colour space conversion it should not be doing.

Is there a hack where we can get the menu to darken so it not washed out, ideally we should have a colour space for both the menu and output.

Pretty much all video content is 16 - 235 so you WANT limited in Kodi.
(2016-04-05, 15:38)danjames92 Wrote: [ -> ]
(2016-04-05, 14:17)stoolzo Wrote: [ -> ]i have an LG oled tv and its taken me a long time to get a picture I like but also to get the colour space setup correctly. What i am finding though is that when I start KODI the menu is washed out even though my desktop settings are set correctly. My black clipping is correct both playing and on youtube so there is a problem with KODI in that its showing the menu at the incorrect colour space.

Here is my setup.

pixel full RGB 4:4:4
ati card colour range 0-255
Kodi colour range correctly set a t 16-235

If I set KODI to 0-255 the movies are too dark and it destroys my black clipping, even if I bring the brightness up to compensate it added noise to the image as it obviously doing an extra colour space conversion it should not be doing.

Is there a hack where we can get the menu to darken so it not washed out, ideally we should have a colour space for both the menu and output.

If you choose limted on your GFX card you subject you media to an extra conversion, see here.

Video_levels_and_color_space (wiki)


So you pc and desktop should be full and your player software should be set to limted only, however when you set KODI to limited the menu is washed out as i've said. The Kodi main menu should mirror the desktop settings and not the output of the movies you are playing, or it should have separate settings for menu and output.

Pretty much all video content is 16 - 235 so you WANT limited in Kodi.
(2016-04-05, 14:17)stoolzo Wrote: [ -> ]i have an LG oled tv and its taken me a long time to get a picture I like but also to get the colour space setup correctly. What i am finding though is that when I start KODI the menu is washed out even though my desktop settings are set correctly. My black clipping is correct both playing and on youtube so there is a problem with KODI in that its showing the menu at the incorrect colour space.

Here is my setup.

pixel full RGB 4:4:4
ati card colour range 0-255
Kodi colour range correctly set a t 16-235

If I set KODI to 0-255 the movies are too dark and it destroys my black clipping, even if I bring the brightness up to compensate it added noise to the image as it obviously doing an extra colour space conversion it should not be doing.

Is there a hack where we can get the menu to darken so it not washed out, ideally we should have a colour space for both the menu and output.

Why would you need separate options? Unless you want to be switching color ranges on your TV going between UI and content, the only correct behavior is for Kodi to render its UI in 16-235 when its Limited Range option is selected, which is in fact what I observe it to do.

Which version of Kodi? It has all worked fine in Kodi versions prior to 16 with my Nvidia cards, though there is a new bug in Jarvis I documented here that affects playback when DXVA2 is enabled:

261421 (thread)

I don't know if the DXVA2 setting affects the UI, and it's not quite the same problem you're describing, but it is a levels problem, so I thought I'd mention it. I don't recall seeing any problem in the UI in the brief time I spent on Jarvis, but that was a few weeks ago.

ETA: If you set Kodi to 0-255, you shouldn't increase Brightness on your TV to compensate. You should change the TV's color space to 0-255.
(2016-04-06, 02:47)crawfish Wrote: [ -> ]
(2016-04-05, 14:17)stoolzo Wrote: [ -> ]i have an LG oled tv and its taken me a long time to get a picture I like but also to get the colour space setup correctly. What i am finding though is that when I start KODI the menu is washed out even though my desktop settings are set correctly. My black clipping is correct both playing and on youtube so there is a problem with KODI in that its showing the menu at the incorrect colour space.

Here is my setup.

pixel full RGB 4:4:4
ati card colour range 0-255
Kodi colour range correctly set a t 16-235

If I set KODI to 0-255 the movies are too dark and it destroys my black clipping, even if I bring the brightness up to compensate it added noise to the image as it obviously doing an extra colour space conversion it should not be doing.

Is there a hack where we can get the menu to darken so it not washed out, ideally we should have a colour space for both the menu and output.

Why would you need separate options? Unless you want to be switching color ranges on your TV going between UI and content, the only correct behavior is for Kodi to render its UI in 16-235 when its Limited Range option is selected, which is in fact what I observe it to do.

Which version of Kodi? It has all worked fine in Kodi versions prior to 16 with my Nvidia cards, though there is a new bug in Jarvis I documented here that affects playback when DXVA2 is enabled:

261421 (thread)

I don't know if the DXVA2 setting affects the UI, and it's not quite the same problem you're describing, but it is a levels problem, so I thought I'd mention it. I don't recall seeing any problem in the UI in the brief time I spent on Jarvis, but that was a few weeks ago.

ETA: If you set Kodi to 0-255, you shouldn't increase Brightness on your TV to compensate. You should change the TV's color space to 0-255.

This is the problem, most HTPC users use desktop full RGB and only switch to limited when playing media, so the kodi menu should be in full RGB and only the movie media should be limted. Currently its washed out so its taking the colour range from the setting in video which it shouldnt, it should be set to mirror the desktop colourspace.

Basically you want you desktop in full RGB 60 hz, the KODI menu in full RGB 60hz too which it has to be really as your TV wont switch to a different preset when KODI is launched so you want it set the same as your desktop. The only way to do this properly is have KODI set its colour range based on the desktop setting and then setting to choose 0-255 or 16/234 would only effect desktop output.

Really really surprised this hasn't been picked up on yet by anyone, its a fairly big deal really for videophiles.
sorry but the post from you clearly shows you are not sure how these levels work.
so let's make this simple.

leave your GPU at full range.

what do use see here in your browser: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/all_tests.php#black
what do you see if you play the black clipping test file in kodi: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-displa...ation.html
my tv is an OLED model so its set to crush blacks a little. My black clipping slide shows 18 and above flashing in both KODI, desktop using MP classic the AVS black clipping side in youtube so these are setup correctly.I can see all the squares in that browser test i am sure but I cant test it right now as it daytime but my TV is defo setup correctly

black clipping slide youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TI9f1zxucw
you crush black "a little" and you can see all the squares in that browser test?

i wish you good luck at your journey.
(2016-04-06, 12:44)stoolzo Wrote: [ -> ]This is the problem, most HTPC users use desktop full RGB and only switch to limited when playing media, so the kodi menu should be in full RGB and only the movie media should be limted. Currently its washed out so its taking the colour range from the setting in video which it shouldnt, it should be set to mirror the desktop colourspace.

Well, that's your problem. You need to commit to the optimal setup for video (0-255 card output, 16-235 for video players) instead of trying to have it both ways. No one wants to have to switch the color space on the TV when going between UI and playback. Alternatively, have Kodi output 0-255 and set your TV accordingly. That's the best compromise mode when you care about consistency between desktop and video. Of course, video must be expanded from 16-235 to 0-255, losing BTB and WTW in the process.

Quote:Really really surprised this hasn't been picked up on yet by anyone, its a fairly big deal really for videophiles.

Videophiles have the card output 0-255, the video players output 16-235, and set the TV for 16-235. They trade off desktop crush for passthrough video. This is the optimal setup for video. Kodi works correctly for them when its Limited Range option is selected, both UI and playback. In fact, it works better than WMC, which always renders its UI in 0-255, even when it plays video at 16-235.

BTW, it sounds like your TV is set to 0-255, which causes the Kodi UI to be washed out when its Limited Range option is enabled. However, if you're observing correct levels when playing video, the card must be outputting 0-255 for video, i.e. expanding the Video Levels Kodi is outputting to PC Levels. IIRC, this sort of thing can happen with Nvidia cards when you use the Nvidia Control Panel to change the Video dynamic range from "With the player" to RGB 0-255 and use DXVA2 in Kodi, which basically overrides Kodi's Limited Range option for playback. This would explain what you're seeing, and again, the solution is to configure the card to let the player decide, commit to 16-235 or 0-255 player output as previously described, and set your TV accordingly. Assuming your TV is capable, the optimal setup will show BTB (bars < 17) and WTW (bars > 234) in the AVS HD 709 Black and White Clipping patterns when you increase Brightness and decrease Contrast on the TV, respectively. The 0-255 approach OTOH will never show BTB or WTW, because they've been tossed out by the levels expansion from 16-235 to 0-255. That's one easy way to tell what's happening.
(2016-04-06, 16:54)crawfish Wrote: [ -> ]Videophiles have the card output 0-255, the video players output 16-235, and set the TV for 16-235. They trade off desktop crush for passthrough video. This is the optimal setup for video. Kodi works correctly for them when its Limited Range option is selected, both UI and playback. In fact, it works better than WMC, which always renders its UI in 0-255, even when it plays video at 16-235.

BTW, it sounds like your TV is set to 0-255, which causes the Kodi UI to be washed out when its Limited Range option is enabled. However, if you're observing correct levels when playing video, the card must be outputting 0-255 for video, i.e. expanding the Video Levels Kodi is outputting to PC Levels. IIRC, this sort of thing can happen with Nvidia cards when you use the Nvidia Control Panel to change the Video dynamic range from "With the player" to RGB 0-255 and use DXVA2 in Kodi, which basically overrides Kodi's Limited Range option for playback. This would explain what you're seeing, and again, the solution is to configure the card to let the player decide, commit to 16-235 or 0-255 player output as previously described, and set your TV accordingly. Assuming your TV is capable, the optimal setup will show BTB (bars < 17) and WTW (bars > 234) in the AVS HD 709 Black and White Clipping patterns when you increase Brightness and decrease Contrast on the TV, respectively. The 0-255 approach OTOH will never show BTB or WTW, because they've been tossed out by the levels expansion from 16-235 to 0-255. That's one easy way to tell what's happening.

sending limited range RGB to the GPU is not a passthrough at all...
video data is YCbCr at y 16-235 and CbCr at 15-240.
video passthrough is not possible on a PC and a BD player can't do it too.

the best you can do is everything at full range RGB that's only one conversation. and of cause your screen has to support full range RGB.

and i'm not even starting the topic of subsampling in a TV...
(2016-04-06, 17:08)huhn Wrote: [ -> ]sending limited range RGB to the GPU is not a passthrough at all...
video data is YCbCr at y 16-235 and CbCr at 15-240.
video passthrough is not possible on a PC and a BD player can't do it too.

It's a straight conversion from YCbCr's actual 1-254 range to RGB that preserves BTB and WTW. It's passthrough in the sense I described here, which madshi agreed with in his reply to my message:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-displa...st28112058

Not sure why you think a (standalone) BD player with YCbCr options can't do true passthrough. PCs can't do it because cards work with RGB 0-255 internally, and their YCbCr output option compresses all output from RGB to YCbCr right before putting it on the wire. This is the worst thing to do, because the levels round trip from 16-235 to 0-255 and back to 16-235 tends to introduce banding. I don't recall (standalone) BD players being described as doing this.

Quote:the best you can do is everything at full range RGB that's only one conversation. and of cause your screen has to support full range RGB.

Nope. The optimal setup for video is as I described. I also described the compromise mode you're talking about which achieves desktop/video consistency at the expense of expanding video from 16-235 to 0-255, throwing away BTB and WTW in the process, which does not happen with the optimal or passthrough mode I described.

ETA: I was interested to see my 2015 Sony BDP-S1500 only has a Limited Range RGB option, while my 2008 BDP-S350 has both Full and Limited Range. If you want consistency between HTPC and S1500, say, because you're going through an AVR with a single output, the passthrough mode I described for the HTPC and Limited Range for the S1500 is the only way to do it. In fact, I do exactly this, and my HTPC and S1500 measure the same using Calman and my profiled i1D3. They also both preserve BTB and WTW.
(2016-04-06, 17:28)crawfish Wrote: [ -> ]
(2016-04-06, 17:08)huhn Wrote: [ -> ]sending limited range RGB to the GPU is not a passthrough at all...
video data is YCbCr at y 16-235 and CbCr at 15-240.
video passthrough is not possible on a PC and a BD player can't do it too.

It's a straight conversion from YCbCr's actual 1-254 range to RGB that preserves BTB and WTW. It's passthrough in the sense I described here, which madshi agreed with in his reply to my message:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-displa...st28112058

Not sure why you think a (standalone) BD player with YCbCr options can't do true passthrough. PCs can't do it because cards work with RGB 0-255 internally, and their YCbCr output option compresses all output from RGB to YCbCr right before putting it on the wire. This is the worst thing to do, because the levels round trip from 16-235 to 0-255 and back to 16-235 tends to introduce banding. I don't recall (standalone) BD players being described as doing this.

you can't send 4:2:0 over hdmi at 1080p. they need to send at least at 4.2:2.

if you have to send limited range than this is the best way but that's it. the GPU but doesn't touch it again.
Quote:
Quote:the best you can do is everything at full range RGB that's only one conversation. and of cause your screen has to support full range RGB.

Nope. The optimal setup for video is as I described. I also described the compromise mode you're talking about which achieves desktop/video consistency at the expense of expanding video from 16-235 to 0-255, throwing away BTB and WTW in the process, which does not happen with the optimal or passthrough mode I described.

yet again it's not a passthrough. on a properly calibrated screen all WTW and BTB is clipped anyway.

Quote:Originally Posted by madshi View Post

There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR:

(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255.

This is the most recommended setup because it doesn't (shouldn't) have any banding problems, and still has all video, desktop and games with correct black/white levels. In this case test patterns need to have black at 0,0,0, obviously.

(2) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 16-235. madVR has to be set to 0-255.

This is not recommended, because the GPU stretches the madVR output, probably in 8bit without dithering, so banding could be introduced. However, this is not a big problem for ArgyllCMS. Argyll still needs to create test patterns with black at 0,0,0. The GPU will then stretch the test patterns from 0-255 to 16-235, so the display will get 16,16,16, although Argyll rendered 0,0,0. So the levels are correct.

(3) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 0-255. madVR is set to 16-235.

This is the recommended setup for best image quality if your display can't do 0-255. This setup results in banding-free madVR image quality. However, levels for desktop and games will be incorrect, because desktop and games will render black at 0,0,0, while the display expects black at 16,16,16. This is a problem for ArgyllCMS, because Argyll will create test patterns with black at 0,0,0, and the display will also receive these at 0,0,0. So basically Argyll test patterns will have wrong levels, which will screw up the whole calibration.

It is my understanding that Graeme implemented the -E switch specifically for (3), because without the -E switch Argyll test patterns would send wrong levels to the display. Basically the -E switch tells Argyll to render test patterns with black at 16,16,16 and white at 235,235,235, which Argyll never had to do before. When using VMR/EVR, you usually switch your GPU to 0-255 or 16-235. In both cases Argyll can render test patterns with black at 0,0,0, and they will still be sent to the display with the correct levels. However, due to my recommendation to use (3) if your display doesn't support 0-255, Argyll suddenly needs to render test patterns differently. Hence Graeme implemented the -E switch.

So my understanding is that -E should be used only for (3) and in no other situation. If you use the -E switch for (1), Argyll will create test patterns with black at 16,16,16 which would be incorrect!
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-displa...st23274961

there is no need to go deeper on this topic. setting the GPU to limited range is bad fpr quality. and i'm pretty sure we agree on that.
(2016-04-06, 17:40)huhn Wrote: [ -> ]yet again it's not a passthrough.

Yet again you're making an overly pedantic distinction which isn't helpful, particularly as concerns the OP.

Quote:on a properly calibrated screen all WTW and BTB is clipped anyway.

BTB helps one set Brightness, and some amount of WTW is arguably worth keeping. See Spears and Munsil 2nd edition articles on Brightness, Contrast, and Colorspace selection for more. In any case, WTW is always there on my Panasonic plasma, so saying it's "clipped on a properly calibrated screen" is not true.

Moreover, see the ETA in my prior message for a reason why the passthrough mode can still be useful for someone who believes 0-255 video output is just as good.

Quote:there is no need to go deeper on this topic. setting the GPU to limited range is bad fpr quality. and i'm pretty sure we agree on that.

I agree with both those points. However, madshi's post that you quoted talks about the same things I talked about in my prior messages. I covered all 3 of his bullet items, I see no disagreement in what we respectively said, so I don't see why you posted it. The Argyll discussion is really off-topic to boot.
(2016-04-06, 18:19)crawfish Wrote: [ -> ]
(2016-04-06, 17:40)huhn Wrote: [ -> ]yet again it's not a passthrough.

Yet again you're making an overly pedantic distinction which isn't helpful, particularly as concerns the OP.
i don't care if you call it "an overly pedantic distinction" it's not an passthrough.
Quote:
Quote:on a properly calibrated screen all WTW and BTB is clipped anyway.

BTB helps one set Brightness, and some amount of WTW is arguably worth keeping. See Spears and Munsil 2nd edition articles on Brightness, Contrast, and Colorspace selection for more. In any case, WTW is always there on my Panasonic plasma, so saying it's "clipped on a properly calibrated screen" is not true.
i'm pretty sure your TV isn't shown WTW with full range input signal.
i don't have to care about a random disc out there. using simple math WTW and BTB has to be clipped. your screen doesn't care about fine. there are10000 other screens that behavior correctly.
Quote:Moreover, see the ETA in my prior message for a reason why the passthrough mode can still be useful for someone who believes 0-255 video output is just as good.

why not send YCbCr with your BD player?
it will always be treated as limited. the topic isn't talking about external devices like a BD player.so why should the best way to deal with this crashing colors for the desktop?
considering the desktop has correct colors for the topic creator. because "youtube" is correct.

there are setup out there that can't use full range RGB and there are multiply reason for that. and there are even good reason to use 16-235 as in output mode in your GPU settings.
Quote:there is no need to go deeper on this topic. setting the GPU to limited range is bad fpr quality. and i'm pretty sure we agree on that.

I agree with both those points. However, madshi's post that you quoted talks about the same things I talked about in my prior messages. I covered all 3 of his bullet items, I see no disagreement in what we respectively said, so I don't see why you posted it. The Argyll discussion is really off-topic to boot.
[/quote]

you started with a one word quote from him not me.

and to find out what is wrong with the topics creators setup this is easy to:

his "youtube" videos look correct so clipping WTW and BTB isn't the issue here because the output there is 0-255. so
Quote:leave your GPU at full range.

what do use see here in your browser: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/all_tests.php#black
what do you see if you play the black clipping test file in kodi: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-displa...ation.html

after this we need to what is the difference between the correct kodi 0-255 output mode. to see if this is an bug in kodi or not.
BTW.
Quote:It's a straight conversion from YCbCr's actual 1-254 range to RGB that preserves BTB and WTW.
1-254 is a HDMI limitation not the way it is transformed.

full range RGB conversation is from y 16-235 and CbCr 16-240 to 0-255. the range of CbCr is 240 and for limited range RGB you have to get that part in the 16-235 part or the colors would be wrong. the WTW/BTB parts are mapped to because this isn't done with clipping.
the way I see this is simple, why is the KODI GUI (a desktop windows app) sending 16-235 to the TV, the gui should match the desktop colour space and should only switch to limted for actually playing movies, it makes no sense for KODI to mirror the video setting, it should mirror the desktop setting like every single other app out there.
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