Kodi Community Forum

Hi Guys,

So yesterday i spent the majority of the day transfering my kodi jarvis data from my 1080p htpc to my nvidia shield box. I thought i would get everything working straight from here so that i wouldnt need to use the windows based htpc box anymore.

Im using the kodi app from the playstore on the shield.

Once my library was back up and running and everything looked the same as my htpc, i started doing some tests.

The first issue i found straight away was HD AUDIO. I could not get DTS-HD or dolby trueHD to display correctly to my Arcam avr550 receiver. Neither could i get Dolby Atmos to work!!! Was very dissapointed ?

I have 7.1.4 channels and it was also downgrading everything to 5.1.

After some messing around in the settings i got 7.1 to work with PCM, however everything i tried (pass through or not) just didnt give me my HD audios that i was after!

I then searched this forum and found the nvidia shield sideloaded builds to test out passthrough audio.

The thread seems to be closes now, i think with the last build released in april. So my question was, was the features in this branch added to the playstore build yet? Or i have to download and sideload a custom build for this?

Also there was three build options and i was a bit confused as to which one is required for the Shield?

Android ARM (Most devices)
Android x86 (Nexus Player for example)

Build date: 8th March 2016 (16.1-RC1)
Android ARM (Most devices)


------------------------------------------------------------

Second issue, regarding the picture quality. Im outputting 4k resolution however the colors seem washed out and very dull compared to my windows 1080p htpc box!!

Is there any reason for this and anyway to fix it? I tried a few blurays and the colors were definetly less sparkly then the 1080p htpc, this was on normal 1080p content but the 4k should atleast equal or upscale to display a better picture and not worse right?

Thanks for your help guys!

Passthrough does not work on official Jarvis. You'll need to use SPMC or the Krypton nightlies. For the Shield, you want the ARM versions.

There is definitely debate on the picture quality of the Shield. For one thing, it does a very poor job of upscaling to 4k. I normally run it at a resolution of 1080p and let my TV do the upscaling because it is so much better. SPMC now has HQ scalers, but I think there is still more work to be done.

(2016-05-07, 15:12)movd Wrote: [ -> ]Passthrough does not work on official Jarvis. You'll need to use SPMC or the Krypton nightlies. For the Shield, you want the ARM versions.

There is definitely debate on the picture quality of the Shield. For one thing, it does a very poor job of upscaling to 4k. I normally run it at a resolution of 1080p and let my TV do the upscaling because it is so much better. SPMC now has HQ scalers, but I think there is still more work to be done.

Ah i see, okay thank you.

Which would be the most stable version to get that does passthrough and will give me dolby atmos / dts-hd etc? Is it the SPMC or the kryptons? I want something which is stable enough for a release build and won't break other stuff.

Good to know about the picture quality and that it wasnt just me that thought the colors were bland and lifeless on nvidia compared to my windows 1080p htpc that is 5 years old!

I see you recommend me to switch back to 1080p and use my projector (epson ls1000) or avr (arcam 550) for 4k upscaling, but the problem with that is if i switch to 1080p on the shield i will loose the 4k UHD content on netflix ? I dont really want to switch to 1080p content on netflix when i can get the 4k one instead. Any work around for this?

Thanks

SPMC is stable, you can get it from the google play store, and it can be installed next to Kodi so I'd recommend trying that out first. Krypton is still in alpha so it would be more about testing it out. In fact, the most recent nigthly build isn't working on Android.

The netflix in UHD is definitely an issue if you use 1080p and I don't think there is any workaround. It is not a concern for me because my TV supports casting (2016 Vizio P series) and I no longer use Netflix on the Shield.

If Shield's output is in RGB mode, make sure the dynamic range settings match with your display (limited-limited or full-full). There shouldn't be any other reason for you to get bland/lifeless colors from the Shield, unless your Shield in not on the latest 3.1 firmware.

(2016-05-07, 18:05)wesk05 Wrote: [ -> ]If Shield's output is in RGB mode, make sure the dynamic range settings match with your display (limited-limited or full-full). There shouldn't be any other reason for you to get bland/lifeless colors from the Shield, unless your Shield in not on the latest 3.1 firmware.

Hmm im not to sure. When in 4k 60hz mode on the shield the dynamic range setting is disabled.

My projector is currently set to full. When i switch the shield from 4k to 1080p i can then see the dynamic setting and it shows full.

Today i have experimented a bit and tried different sources and different modes. The shield in 4k is definetly very bland and dull. Colors and brightness are way down (this is for sources within kodi and spmc), i havnt yet checked sources in other apps like netflix etc...

When i switch shield to 1080p, suddenly my movies and videos are all coming back to life. The colors are great again aswell as the general picture quality. I should mention that my projector is doing the 4k upscaling itself.

I have even tried 4k native videos on the shield within kodi and they are knowhere near as sharp as when i switch the shield to 1080p and let projcetor do 4k upscale!!

Thats what ive found anyway so far.

(2016-05-07, 22:57)KILLERNADS Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm im not to sure. When in 4k 60hz mode on the shield the dynamic range setting is disabled. My projector is currently set to full.

If dynamic range setting is disabled, that would suggest that the output is YCbCr. Now, your projector doesn't support 10-bit input or HDR, Shield is likely to set the output as 4K 50/60Hz 8-bit Rec. 709.

Check these:
1) Is your projector on the same color mode for 4K and 1080p?
2) Do you see Deep Color information in 4K 50/60Hz mode?
3) What do you see for input signal in your projector's info screen? Is it component or RGB? If component, make sure that HDMI video range is set to limited on your projector.

The Shield doesn't support hdr yet, which means it can only support rec.709 atm. So it's not a color space thingy. (And I mean color space as in gamut, not color encoding)

Dynamic range disabled does not mean YCbCr, but RGB limited. If your projector is full, then your picture will be washed out. Put it to limited and everything will be fine. Might be a bug that full range is disabled at 4K/60.

As mentioned the signal is not Component/YCrCb, but even if it was, then the range would *always* be limited in this mode. Which means that displays/projectors will always interpret a YCrCb signal as limited.

(2016-05-08, 04:39)Soli Wrote: [ -> ]The Shield doesn't support hdr yet, which means it can only support rec.709 atm. So it's not a color space thingy. (And I mean color space as in gamut, not color encoding)

Dynamic range disabled does not mean YCbCr, but RGB limited. If your projector is full, then your picture will be washed out. Put it to limited and everything will be fine. Might be a bug that full range is disabled at 4K/60.

As mentioned the signal is not Component/YCrCb, but even if it was, then the range would *always* be limited in this mode. Which means that displays/projectors will always interpret a YCrCb signal as limited.

Shield does output in Rec. 2020. It sets the output color space for 4K 50/60Hz modes based on whether the display supports 10-bit & HDR. Is it converting Rec. 709 to Rec. 2020 is suspect at best.
On the Shield if dynamic range setting is disabled, it absolutely means that the output is YCbCr. Full/limited options are available for 4K 50/60Hz RGB 8-bit modes on the Shield.

NB: Do you actually have a Shield?

It's not a matter of outputting in Rec. 2020 or Rec.709. Isolated, they're just "numbers". It needs to signal to the display how to interprete these numbers. I read it supports 10bit bt.2020 for the netflix app (yadda yadda), but how is it going to signal the bt.2020 metadata (and with that, signal the real primaries/whitepoint/etc used) to the display when it doesn't support metadata yet?
(And we arent really talking about the Netflix app, are we?)

I have a hard time believing that it would automatically switch to YCrCb 4:2:2/60 and losing half of chroma resolution on the account that display support >8bit (Which most displays nowadays do). And if it did, he wouldn't have a washed out picture because YCrCb is limited in all cases. No display or projector will ever interpret YCrCb as "full range".

Since this isn't a discussion about my CV, it doesn't matter if I have a Shield or not. I might however be wrong on all accounts and you are certainly welcome to prove me wrong. This is a forum, after all.

(2016-05-08, 06:27)Soli Wrote: [ -> ]It's not a matter of outputting in Rec. 2020 or Rec.709. Isolated, they're just "numbers". It needs to signal to the display how to interprete these numbers. I read it supports 10bit bt.2020 for the netflix app (yadda yadda), but how is it going to signal the bt.2020 metadata (and with that, signal the real primaries/whitepoint/etc used) to the display when it doesn't support metadata yet?
(And we arent really talking about the Netflix app, are we?)

I have a hard time believing that it would automatically switch to YCrCb 4:2:2/60 and losing half of chroma resolution on the account that display support >8bit (Which most displays nowadays do). And if it did, he wouldn't have a washed out picture because YCrCb is limited in all cases. No display or projector will ever interpret YCrCb as "full range".

Since this isn't a discussion about my CV, it doesn't matter if I have a Shield or not. I might however be wrong on all accounts and you are certainly welcome to prove me wrong. This is a forum, after all.

Color primaries and transfer characteristics are defined in the VUI of the video stream in H.26x. As long as the video decoders conform to specifications, there shouldn't be any problem selecting the appropriate color space and matrix conversion when required. You are likely mixing this up with HDR metadata.

Believe it or not, Shield automatically selects 10-bit Rec. 2020 YCbCr 4:2:0 for 4K 50/60Hz modes if the display supports 10-bit and HDR. Once set, everything is output with this format. As for Netflix app supporting 10-bit Rec. 2020, it may have at one point of time, but it doesn't look like anymore. Apparently, non-HDR UHD Netflix content is in Rec. 709. It is the HDR content that is in Rec. 2020. Since the Shield doesn't have HDR support, Netflix seems to be streaming the non HDR Rec. 709 versions.

The OP has described "bland/lifeless colors", "colors and brightness way down" and "washed out" colors. I am not sure how you can have brightness way down and washed out colors together. Yes, YCbCr is always limited for video content (Although YCbCr with full range has been defined in HDMI 1.4, it doesn't seem to have been implemented in any display). On Epson projectors, you can set HDMI video range to these: Auto, Normal and Expanded. You do have the option to override and the OP has indicated that he has set the projector to "Full".

I can't really say what is causing this issue. That is why I asked the OP to check certain things on his projector's info display. If it shows "component" signal and Deep color: 10 bits, that would indicate that the Shield has set the output to 10-bit Rec. 2020 YCbCr 4:2:0 for 4K 60Hz. A logcat can easily confirm what the output is, but I think that is too much to ask from the OP (Excuse me for judging). Shield has had issues with some TVs like the Sony W750C, Philips 55PFT5209/55PUS8809, LG 65UH6500 OLED. This could be another one. I am just speculating. The other possible explanations are 1) the OP is used to watching everything in RGB full mode and now is finding YCbCr to be bland/lifeless or 2) simply the projector has been set with less than ideal picture settings.

I am not questioning your knowledge. It is just that I happen to have a Shield and know what it does or doesn't. There is no question that certain things that it does defies logic or is out of the norm.

This turned out to be unusually long. I am not a verbose person. I think most of my posts are no more than 1-3 sentences.

Hey Guys, thanks alot for both your inputs. I appreciate your help in trying to help me.

My projector is a laser projector Epson LS1000.

It doesnt do native 4k but has an upscaling 4k or passthrough feature thats supposed to be exactly the same (no difference) to native 4k on a screen size that i have 121".

@wesk4, you are right in that the epson has a mode called hdmi video range, i have this mode set to Normal because i think from what i remember Expanded gave even more washed out colors and was as if someone turned up the brightness considerably and everything was whiter (in a bad way).

My projector was recently installed (2 weeks ago) with a new Arcam avr550 by a home cinema expert and was calibrated for both video and audio.

I can't remember right now if it is displaying RGB or component. I will check that and get back to you.

However, some good news. I dont know if this is a solution or not or how exactly i might have done it. But i think i switched to 1080p mode on the shield and then switched the dynamic range to Full from limited.

I then switched back to 4k60 on the shield and obviously the dynamic range again was locked out but still displayed full range. I may have also changed a few other settings mainly in kodi itself.

However, now from what i can tell the picture definetly does look amazing. I hope im not speaking to soon and i just got used to it ?

I will try to do some more comparisons today again and see if my picture quality matches my 1080p htpc now or surpasses it (which is what im hoping for).

Oh yeah one other thing i also switched on the 1080p upscale mode on the AVR to 4k2k from bypass. However that should affect the shield as its already outputting at 4k.

Checking the info on my projector did show the shield main menus coming in at 4xxx X 2xxx resolution. However when i watch a bluray film in kodi the resolution input on the projector changes to 3xxx X 2xxx.

Is this normal or shouldnt happen?

okay guys i need your help, after some more checking I've found that the Projector shows the Input as COMPONENT when I'm on the Kodi GUI.

However, when i start playing a film it switches to RGB.

Now I've also played around with the HDMI video range (Auto, Normal and Expanded).

Ive figured out that I've always had it on Auto.

Where as on my 1080p HTPC (which i think played in component and not RGB, would have to check this to make sure) i had thought Auto generally switched to Normal, however on the shield it is switching to Expanded!!

The Dynamic Range setting on the Shield's HDMI settings still are greyed out.


Now its a question about the HDMI range, what to go for? Choosing Normal gives me some superb colours and picture quality, however the blacks are really dark and image quality and details are drowned out in the black making a few things unseeable. However, switching to Expanded (or auto in this case) brings back all those lost details in the dark bits of a movie, however the really bad thing is that this mode adds milky sort of layer onto the whole film, almost like upping the brightness on the picture and this is where everything appears washed out.

So im a bit confused when the projector is in RGB mode which hdmi range setting should i select?

OK. I know what is going on here. Shield's native otuput is set to YCbCr 4K 60Hz (most likely 8-bit since your projector only supports 4:2:0 8-bit at 4K 50/60). This is why you are seeing "Dynamic Range" option grayed out in Shield's settings. It looks like you have enabled refresh rate switching in Kodi. So when you play a movie with 23.976 frame rate, Shield switches to 23.976Hz mode, the output of which is 8-bit RGB. What you have to do is manually select 4K/1080p 23.976Hz mode on the Shield and set the "Dynamic Range" to "Limited" or "Auto". Leave the setting on the projector also to "Auto". This should take care of your problem.

(2016-05-08, 07:29)wesk05 Wrote: [ -> ]Color primaries and transfer characteristics are defined in the VUI of the video stream in H.26x. As long as the video decoders conform to specifications, there shouldn't be any problem selecting the appropriate color space and matrix conversion when required. You are likely mixing this up with HDR metadata.

Although it's related, I'm not mixing it up with HDR metadata. Yes, the color space can be defined in the datastream. Luma coefficients are different for rec.601 rec.709 and rec.2020. (Which also affects chroma, since luma only accounts to around 80% of total luminance in YCC coding). The respective coefficients are used when converting back to RGB, whereas if you were to as native YCC to a display, that conversion will be handled by the display. For non-HDR, the transfers characterictis are the same as Rec.709, but with added precision for the still rare case of 12bit data. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that the Shield converts to full range rgb and then converts that to limited and YCC, so you can forget about bitperfect and wtw/btb, and I'm also pretty sure that any reencodings to YCC will use the rec.709 coefficients and not the rec.2020 coefficients.

If "support" for rec.2020 color space means being able to use rec.2020 coefficients to convert a video file encoded with rec.2020 color space to rec.709 RGB by way of perceptual color intent, and the Shield is at all able to do this, then yes, the Shield does "support" rec.2020 in *your* definition of "support".

But that's only half the story. The color gamut is the property of the *display*, so we NEED to signal the display how it should interpret the data. All displays that supports rec.2020 (In practice only HDR displays with hdmi 2.0a do, that's why it's related) will still default to Rec.709 for all HD or higher resolutions unless we tell them otherwise. Since the Shield has no way of telling the display what color space the data uses, it HAS to output in rec.709. This signaling is part of HDMI 2.0a/HDR metadata, and since the Shield doesn't yet support hdmi 2.0a, and the neccesary handshake to tell the display what color space our data is, it too has to default to rec.709. Anything else would be a big fail. (Then again, this is Nvidia, who after xx years still reset the gamma curve when starting a fullscreen game)

Yes, the HDMI FAQ says HDMI 2.0 (without a) supports (but doesn't mandate) rec.2020 color space with 10bit or more, but that's only half right. Color space if seperate from bitdepth, which means even HDMI 1.0 can support any arbitrary color space. If you wanted to use rec.2020 color space with HDMI <=2.0 , then you would have to manually switch your display to rec.2020 mode. Not that it matters, since this display probably doesn't exist, although some displays let you select an almost arbitrary "wide gamut" mode. I don't know of any displays that properly supports rec.2020 color space* without simultaneously supporting HDMI 2.0a and HDR (in som form or another). So for all intents and purposes, rec.2020 is pretty much exclusive to the latest HDR displays.

*meaning the typical 90-something-ish percent of DCI-P3 kind of rec.2020


For those that use full HTPCS with real operating systems, it won't matter. Then it's just a case of using the widest gamut the TV supports, hardware calibrate the TV as best as you can, then use a software calibration to calibrate and profile your display. As long as you use videplayer/renderer that supports color management such as MPC-HC/MadVR with a 3Dlut, you'd be sorted. Too bad you really need to use a 250usd colorimeter for this, though.

Quote:Believe it or not, Shield automatically selects 10-bit Rec. 2020 YCbCr 4:2:0 for 4K 50/60Hz modes if the display supports 10-bit and HDR. Once set, everything is output with this format. As for Netflix app supporting 10-bit Rec. 2020, it may have at one point of time, but it doesn't look like anymore. Apparently, non-HDR UHD Netflix content is in Rec. 709. It is the HDR content that is in Rec. 2020. Since the Shield doesn't have HDR support, Netflix seems to be streaming the non HDR Rec. 709 versions.

But the OP's projector doesn't support HDR, so there goes your theory. And his projector doesn't support Rec.2020 either. But according to the PR-page, it has presets for DCI-p3 and Adobe RGB, but that is probably only usefull with proper color managment with MPC-HC/MadVR. What you say about Netflix sounds reasonable, and in line with what I wrote earlier.

Quote:The OP has described "bland/lifeless colors", "colors and brightness way down" and "washed out" colors. I am not sure how you can have brightness way down and washed out colors together. Yes, YCbCr is always limited for video content (Although YCbCr with full range has been defined in HDMI 1.4, it doesn't seem to have been implemented in any display). On Epson projectors, you can set HDMI video range to these: Auto, Normal and Expanded. You do have the option to override and the OP has indicated that he has set the projector to "Full".

I can't really say what is causing this issue. That is why I asked the OP to check certain things on his projector's info display. If it shows "component" signal and Deep color: 10 bits, that would indicate that the Shield has set the output to 10-bit Rec. 2020 YCbCr 4:2:0 for 4K 60Hz. A logcat can easily confirm what the output is, but I think that is too much to ask from the OP (Excuse me for judging). Shield has had issues with some TVs like the Sony W750C, Philips 55PFT5209/55PUS8809, LG 65UH6500 OLED. This could be another one. I am just speculating. The other possible explanations are 1) the OP is used to watching everything in RGB full mode and now is finding YCbCr to be bland/lifeless or 2) simply the projector has been set with less than ideal picture settings.

Too many factors to be certain. Maybe a combination of things is my best guess at this point. ....I should stay away from these threads. It always gets SO off topic.