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Full Version: RFC: music video art types
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This is a general discussion topic of art used for music videos.  I see the following limitations or issues when skinning MV art:

1.  Music video library items can be displayed in both the music and videos windows, as well as musicplaylist and videoplaylist windows.  This creates a need to fine-tune what and how art for MV items is displayed.

2.  From what I can tell, the original implementation was designed to retrieve both artist and album art from the music library.  But only the artist art currently works.  One limitation of this is that there is an album library node for music videos, but the album items only show the default icon, no art.  The artist library node does show the artist art (from music library if the artist in in there).

3.  The nominal art types for music videos are roughly the same as for movies.  But on a practical basis, I'm not sure how much they are used.  As a default (configured by a setting) when scanned to the video library a frame grab will be made and stored as the thumb.  This is commonly a 16:9 aspect but not necessarily.  There is a bit of a problem with this, as for music the assumption is the thumb is an album cover or artist image with 1:1 aspect.

4.  With the above as background, what I think has value is to add an art type for the album cover (at least for single-song music videos).  I see a couple possibilities:
    a.  Use existing "poster" art type for an album cover.  The problem here is that the poster is intended for a 2:3 aspect while an album cover is 1:1.  The advantage is all skins (AFAIK) support poster for music videos out of the box.
    b.  Create a new art type "cover" which would be defined as the album cover with a 1:1 aspect.  The drawback here is that this adds yet another art type which has to be supported in skins.  The advantage is it's easier to skin since the meaning and aspect of the art is known.

5.  There currently is no way to add artist art for a music video artist that isn't in the music library.  It's possible that there is an addon like Artist Slideshow that stores local artist art in the artist info folder and that could be retrieved for display with music videos even if the artist is not in the music library.  That could be extended to storing album art I suppose.

Thoughts?

scott s.
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Quote:what I think has value is to add an art type for the album cover (at least for single-song music videos).  I see a couple possibilities:
    a.  Use existing "poster" art type for an album cover.  The problem here is that the poster is intended for a 2:3 aspect while an album cover is 1:1.  The advantage is all skins (AFAIK) support poster for music videos out of the box.
    b.  Create a new art type "cover" which would be defined as the album cover with a 1:1 aspect.  The drawback here is that this adds yet another art type which has to be supported in skins.  The advantage is it's easier to skin since the meaning and aspect of the art is known.
How important is album art to music videos. After all, there is never really an album of music videos released. Well, maybe something from Michael Jackson. Most music videos are singles really. Maybe we should consider displaying the Artist's poster and fanart along with the thumb of the video as the main types of art for music videos. Add album art as another piece of art similar to disc art etc for music.

With the rise of digital platforms, quite a bit of music and their corresponding videos are released as singles. Artists are having hit singles long before having an album.
Quote:There currently is no way to add artist art for a music video artist that isn't in the music library.
Maybe that should be reconsidered. Music videos can be works of art independent of the music. Some of these are mini movies. putting an artist.jpg and fanart.jpg in the artist folder is a possibility
I have many Concerts that are like albums as they have multiple songs.

Album (concert) folder.jpg and fanart.jpg displays in at least some Kodi skins. My only request would be to have an artist.jpg display at the artist level, can’t use folder.jpg as that becomes the concert poster.

For individual music videos I’ve created a few various artists folders with mixed artists. These are grouped by name like Atmos Demos, DTS Demos, 80s Rock etc. That works ok for me.

Maybe one solution would be to allow music audio and videos to reside in the same source and Kodi database with a new type field of audio or video. Scanning based on the file type (audio or video)?

In Kodi Music UI viewing an artist could then show all media for an artist and just play whatever is selected. Art would be shared as it’s just music art. Not separate sources, databases, media types and associated code to maintain.
My experience is that music videos are primarily in the pop genres, and typically the title or A side of what's really a single (but often referred to as an EP and might have a couple other tracks included).  It's common to have a separate release (part of an MB release group) that contains both CD and DVD/BD with unique cover art.

The default library nodes provide both "artist" (with "album" sub-node) and "album" nodes.  There's also studio and director nodes, kind of doubt anyone uses those.

The "mixed" smart playlist provides both songs and music videos (but doesn't have any grouping options).

I'm interested in trying to have consistent look and feel.  In the music library you have mostly 1:1 aspect art.  When you mix in music videos with a different aspect thumb you can
a. stretch aspect which results in distorted art
b. keep aspect which results in a smaller art
c. define separate image controls with different aspect based on DBtype which results in layout difficulties

This also affects widget panels which typically use a thumb.

Some can be overcome with skin settings options, but the more complex skins already have a ton of settings.

You might want to have different look in the music window compared to videos which would argue for a different art type used in each.  (Music could show the cover art while videos the poster art.)  You still need to be careful as music videos always use the movie info dialog window regardless of which library window it is called from.

scott s.
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Maybe you meant was "what *I* have are mostly pop videos"... there are lots and lots of videos of classical performances, too.
(2020-06-16, 17:17)HeresJohnny Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe you meant was "what *I* have are mostly pop videos"... there are lots and lots of videos of classical performances, too.
Sure.  There are lots of concert videos.  I think it is generally agreed that concerts have to be treated differently.  For those there isn't any utility to album art.  Which is why I lean towards a new "cover" art type and leave the "poster" alone.

For concerts / live preformance I think you have a problem in that the only role is actor (treated as artist) so much of the new music library flexibility won't work.  While movie "cast and role" might be a better fit.

scott s.
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Quote:While movie "cast and role" might be a better fit
Could not agree with you more. Remember that the Music Library also has roles.
For music videos I’ve deleted the Director node and others that have no use.

Easy enough to create new nodes named Concerts instead of Albums, or Videos instead of albums.

It would be worthwhile getting a requirements doc together so we can understand the use cases. I’m happy to contribute. Of course there’s no guarantee anything would be done in Kodi but at least we have something to aim for.

We shouldn’t shoot for the stars, keep the same basic framework Kodi has for Music now, because Music Videos is much more like Music than in Kodi Videos. Removing Music Videos from Videos and into Music seems to me the best way forward. A Music Videonhas all the metadata of a song, it’s just a file that contains video and audio, not just audio.

Poster = Cover it probably doesn’t matter where/what this is called in the database as long as Kodi Music returns the same image json structure to the skin (which could be done in the underlying SQL query) to minimise skinning rework. But if MVs were moved to Music a database update would resolve all that anyway.
(2020-06-16, 22:28)HomerJau Wrote: [ -> ]For music videos I’ve deleted the Director node and others that have no use.

Easy enough to create new nodes named Concerts instead of Albums, or Videos instead of albums.

It would be worthwhile getting a requirements doc together so we can understand the use cases. I’m happy to contribute. Of course there’s no guarantee anything would be done in Kodi but at least we have something to aim for.

We shouldn’t shoot for the stars, keep the same basic framework Kodi has for Music now, because Music Videos is much more like Music than in Kodi Videos. Removing Music Videos from Videos and into Music seems to me the best way forward. A Music Videonhas all the metadata of a song, it’s just a file that contains video and audio, not just audio.

Poster = Cover it probably doesn’t matter where/what this is called in the database as long as Kodi Music returns the same image json structure to the skin (which could be done in the underlying SQL query) to minimise skinning rework. But if MVs were moved to Music a database update would resolve all that anyway.
While I agree that having defined requirements would help focus design, currently there don't seem to be any designers and implementers .   My goal was more modest:  is there a requirement to have an album art that is associated with a specific music video library item, if so how should it be implemented?  My explanation was by way of providing what I see as the context of the existing design and how it impacts skinning.  The questions being where would an image of an album cover be desired by a user, and what aspect it should have.  When that is known, it is easier to make a determination of using the existing 2:3 poster or varying but typical 16:9 thumb, or creating a new art type just for an album cover in 1:1 aspect. 

scott s.
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Music Videos are currently just like movies and can have one cover art per video BUT, just like movies it’s a single folder per movie and a single Video and folder.fpg per folder. That’s the current solution for music video singles. One per folder if you want an individual cover per music video.

I don’t have any use for a different cover for each single music video. I’m happy to see cover art per concert (one folder.jpg per concert) or one per folder for my Various Artists folders.

The Aeon Nox Silvo skin shows music video folder’s ‘folder.jpg as ‘album’ covers ok.

I worked in sw dev for many years with SQL db and prog design etc but I’m not a c+ programmer, otherwise I’d pitch in on this. Maybe a Python add-on Music Video Helper is an option for me to think about?
I detailed some of my thoughts here.

I'll add a couple.
To draw a parallel there is are reason why logos exit. To name a few, identification, retaining, and the speed of accomplishing the first 2. That's why instead of writing a piece of text called "DTS-HD Master Audio" we plaster the respective logo and the general apperception (hello Westworld!) is near instantaneous.
So. If there is ever a piece of art in the form of a poster (portrait) for a music video (either as standalone or by cropping some other art), it will mean exactly nothing to anybody. It doesn't matter what other justification can be attempted; the moment we lost the identification game, the user gets bored, distracted, or actually fatigued from trying to make sense of everything he sees.
A music video will have a thumbnail as the most (and only, in my opinion) representative art type. Even than is not an exact science cause there can be ~7000 thumbs from a clip. Is that the Thriller jacket or the Beat It jacket? I need to be able to tell. Fast. But if I'm shown the white jacket from the Thriller album cover I can infer nothing of immediate use from it.

Every other form of art (1:1, 2:3 AR) is a distortion inherited from associating the content at hand (music videos, which are first and foremost videos) with something else (music), and not having a solution at hand to speak the magic word: relational.
In the video section -> These music videos correspond to singles from this audio album; go an listen to it if you feel like.
In the audio section -> These tracks from this album have music videos associated with them; go and watch them if you so feel like it.
Presentation... something akin to the tripanel view some skins have for TV series. "Looky here, this music track actually has a music video associated with it". I imagine this would require some serious amount of work, possible outside the scope of original intent here. Smile

Some generic thoughts: careful with over-generalization and/or stereotyping. MV's do have a director. They don't have a studio though. Gothic Symphonic Rock is not Pop. Etc. We need something solid that will last for some time, cause I don't think this will be revisited too often. Hot on the heels of any decision taken I'll come following with "where do I put Within Temptation - 2008-01-15 - Stand My Ground - Live TMF Music Awards Belgium and how do I make it look right cause this really only has a thumb?". "But this is not an MV!" "The label on the door actually read 'Pandora's box', what made you think MVs are the only problem?" Smile Smile
I'm not trying to solve world hunger here.  i already have a multi-view set up for music artist that toggles the sub-view between music albums and music videos for the artist.  But I want art that makes sense for the user on this view.  Right now it inherits a CD-case wrapper that the thumb is placed into a 1:1 image. When I focus on the sublist I change that so it isn't stretched:
Artist/Music Video
Image

Image

Artist/Album
Image

As far as naming, video scanner can use filename-arttype.jpg in addition to folder.jpg per folder.  I use artist/album physical folder layout.  Video library has album attribute (c09) for musicvideos so it's there if you use it or not.  In my test folders I currently have the musicvideo files in the same folders as the music files and that works fine too.

scott s.
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Scott967:
Agreed, but I'm curious in which skin u are using.
(2020-06-17, 20:55)scott967 Wrote: [ -> ]or creating a new art type just for an album cover in 1:1 aspect. 

Didnt read the whole Treat

i see two possibileties:
1. Tread it like Albums in Music library (aspect 1:1) -> i use "ListItem.icon" to skin Albumcover and Artistthumbnails within the Music-section
2. Introduce a new Art Type "Cover" (or what ever it is whise to Name it) 1:1 Aspect of course. -> competitor of "ListItem.Art(poster)" within the Videolibrary, just with 1:1 Aspect in minde, to hold Albumcovers and Artist Thumbnails



From my opinion i see two, (may three), possibileties:
(my thinking here is, that the "Musicvideo-Cover" shuld in general always hold the Album cover. (exception the special usecase "Concerts" within the Musiclibrary -> see the End of this Post).)

Approach1: (Keep it consistent with the Musiclibrary in general  like it is today + may add a new Arttype which could hold a "screenshot" from the Musicvideo

"ListItem.Art(fanart)" -> ArtistFanart like in Music Library (16:9) -> (within the musiclibrary it doesnt mather if on song, album, or Artist level "ListItem.Art(fanart)" shows always the Artist Fanart.
"ListItem.Icon" -> Artist Thumbnail (when browsing by Artist), or Albumcover (when browsing by Track, by Album, by Genre, by Years) (aspect 1:1!)
may additional:
"ListItem.Thumb" or a new Infolabel -> a "screenshot"/Thumbnail of the Music-Clip like it is in "episodes" (16:9) -> This could also be a new Arttype -> i.e.: "ListItem.Art(ClipThumb)"

-> less work

Approach2: (Introduce a new Arttype for Albumcovers and Artistthumbnails: "i.e ListItem.Art(cover)"-> +!! -> to have consistency with the Musiclibrary extend it to the Musiclibrary to!

"ListItem.Art(fanart)" -> as it behaves in the MusicLibrary -> ArtistFanart (16:9)
new!: ListItem.Art(Cover)" would hold the Albumcover or ArtistThumbnail, like it's currently assigned to "ListItem.Icon" in the Musiclibrary. -> MAY BEST to introduce this in the Musiclibrary to, so there is no confusion + The musiclibrary would have its own Arttype equal to "ListItem.Art(poster)".
 
EDIT-Y: There is already "MusicPlayer.Cover" which can be used within Visualisation.xml, if this is of any Help (cosistency of Label Naming). /EDIT-Y
 

+ then it would be possible to assign a "Screenshot" to "ListItem.Icon" like its done with "episodes".
-> Episodes: ListItem.Art(poster) holds the Poster from the season the Episode is included in, and "ListItem.Icon" holds the screenshot.
-> Musicvideos: ListItem.Art(Cover) holds the Albumcover from the Album of this Track, and "ListItem.Icon" holds the "screenshot"

-> more work, but may worth it, as there is currently no special Artworktype for Covers, like it's the case within the Videolibrary with "ListItem.Art(poster)" -> fallback could still be "ListItem.Icon", same as it behaves with "ListItem,Art(poster)" within the Videolibrary.


Approach3: - (the easyest one!) - again consistent to the Musiclibrary with one exception: fill "ListIten.Art(fanart) with a screenshot of the current Music-Clip while browsing by "Title".

"ListItem.Art(fanart)" -> as it behaves in the MusicLibrary -> ArtistFanart (16:9), with the exception of holding a "screenshot"/"fanart" of the currently focused Music-Clip while browsing by "Title"
"ListItem.Icon" -> exactly like within the Musiclibrary - Artist Thumbnail (when browsing by Artist), or Albumcover (when browsing by Track, by Album, by Genre, by Years) (aspect 1:1!)

may the easiest solution, and may not a bad one, if it doesnt conflicht with anything.


my 2cents.


while had my hands at the attempt of Skinning the Musicvide section i also noticed that there are no Albumcovers (while browsing by "Album"). + it seems not possible to alther the Artistthumbnail or Artist-Fanart while browsing by Artist in "musicvideos".

here a breave look, of what it looks like on my End, while browsing by "Album" within Musicvideos:

Image

Image


Talking about the aspectratio of Cover, i use a "special approach" by alowing also Concerts (concert.db scraper) within my Musicvideo library. (all based on "ListItem.Icon") - same view - same list.

Image

Image

Regards


EDIT:
As Kodi (Wiki) recomments to scrape Concerts as Movies, and separate them via "Nodes", i see Concerts within the Musicvideo- (/ Music-Clip-) Library as a special usecase. (Needs a Special Scraper to) and therefore would recoment to stick with a 1:1 ratio for (Album-) Covers. (and for Artist thumbs to, as them usaly are in 1:1 ratio.)

EDIT-X:
Would also be nice to have more Infolabels within the Musicvideo section (like "ListItem.Property(Artist_Description)" as an example.

A short summary of this Post (my 2 cents) at the End:
- Artist and Clip-/Album- Thumbnail 1:1 (may new Infolable - see Approach 1-3) ClipThumbnail on Musicvideo level equals Albumthumbnail. (at least as a fallback in case there isnt a "Single-Cover" which may would be handy to show.)
- Posibilety of adding a Screenshot/Fanart of the Clip in 16:9 (may new Infolabel or using "ListIten.Art(fanart)" - see Approach 1-3)
- Stay close to how its done within the Musiclibrary. -> with the exception: may a InfoLable which holds a possible screenshot of the Clip (or Fanart) by browsing by "title".
With "Approach3" in minde:

on "Title" level (/browse by Title):
left: "ListItem.Icon" (Album/Single- Cover)
right: "ListItem.Art(fanart)" (Screenshot from the MV)

Image

on "Artist" level (/browse by Artist)
left: "ListItem.Icon" (Artist Thumbnail)
right: "ListItem.Art(fanart)" or "ListItem.Art(landscape)" if available (Artist "Fanart", or Artist "Landscape" if available.)

Image

(Artist description would imho. fit nice here underneath the Fanart.)
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