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(2020-10-10, 23:36)Seth77 Wrote: [ -> ]hi,

good tool ; but very disappointed that the v4 is not free

Because you think developers should work for free? Or because you can not afford $12/year?

I am confused.......

This software is far above and beyond anything i have ever used, it’s worth double what they charge, not to mention their support is second to none.

So complaining that the software is not free is like saying it/they are not good enough to get paid.

Would you rather if support just stopped and the software disappeared?
(2020-10-10, 14:33)Yaka Wrote: [ -> ]having done some work on projects in the past, i fully understand the need for a subscription but is there any chance of an alternative/additional payment service rather than just having paddle?

handling everything with local taxes, integration into an own system, integration into payment systems is not easy and paddle is the best choice here - so there is no way to switch it.
Do you have problems with paddle?
(2020-10-11, 01:44)spl147 Wrote: [ -> ]
(2020-10-10, 23:36)Seth77 Wrote: [ -> ]hi,

good tool ; but very disappointed that the v4 is not free

Because you think developers should work for free? Or because you can not afford $12/year?

I am confused.......

This software is far above and beyond anything i have ever used, it’s worth double what they charge, not to mention their support is second to none.

So complaining that the software is not free is like saying it/they are not good enough to get paid.

Would you rather if support just stopped and the software disappeared?

:-)
Yes for me is too much $12/year
I used the software very little
other free software is very good

br
(2020-09-07, 22:07)mlaggner Wrote: [ -> ]original text on: https://www.tinymediamanager.org/blog/v4-future/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tinyMediaManager is developed as Open Source since summer 2012 mainly by two developers (Manuel and Myron) in their spare time.

During this time the project grew to about 200.000 lines of code in over 7000 commits. According to the COCOMO model a calculation of the costs for this project results in over two million Euro.

Although this project is Open Source, the contribution to the development work of the tinyMediaManager core team is over 98%. On average we are working more than one hour per day for this project - in our spare time, for free. And all this without financial support or further help. Only the translations (in currently more than 30 languages) and the support in the forum is (partly) done by the community.

Since the lion's share of the work (development, maintenance, deployment, ...) remains within the tinyMediaManager team, we decided to charge an annual fee for the ongoing work on the project (starting with v4). This does not mean that the project itself will change much - tinyMediaManager remains open source and the code remains free.

Basically this means:

- tinyMediaManager remains Open Source - the code is still freely available (excluding our license module and the launcher)
- the compiled/packaged version of tinyMediaManager has a limitation concerning the number of loaded objects/API calls of the scraper (currently 50 movies, 10 TV series and about 50 API calls)
- a license of tinyMediaManager can be purchased (planned is 10€) and will be valid for one year (because the maintenance will continue and new feature will be added constantly)

Since we support the Open Source idea, we will also reward contributions from the community with free licenses (be it translations, pull/merge requests, donations, help in the forum, testing of test versions, ...). Corresponding free licenses will be sent to contributors shortly.

We are aware that many users of tinyMediaManager will not like this decision, but we had the choice to either stop the development of tinyMediaManager or to continue the development and charge a fee. Unfortunately it is no longer economically viable for us to spend more than one hour per day for the maintenance of this project without any financial compensation.

What is new in v4?
tinyMediaManager v4 has some big changes as well as many fixes over v3:

+ bundled JRE and rewritten launcher (no installed Java needed any more)
+ real HiDPI support (slightly changed look and feel to achieve correct UI scaling)
+ mix in IMDB ratings for almost every scraper without the need of the universal scrapers
+ universal TV show scraper
+ completely reworked libmediainfo usage:
  - full support of reading/writing mediainfo XML files
  - better support of disc structures (.iso and VIDEO_TS/BDMV/HVDVD_TS folders)
  - several fixes for reading data out of libmediainfo
+ enhanced filter management
+ new command line interface
+ mediainfo integration for Trakt.tv
+ support for Windows taskbar / macOS dock access
+ added a true regular expression search for movies/movie set/TV show titles
+ display missing episodes in the season overview panel
+ provide artwork from TMDB for Trakt.tv search
+ added showlink support for movies
+ ...

What happens with v3?
tinyMediaManager v3 will remain available and free, but only serious bugs will be fixed and no new features will be added. A mandatory upgrade to v4 will not be necessary, but we want to provide an easy transition.

When will this step be made?
We have been working on the finalization of v4 all summer and it is already in the starting blocks (nightly builds are already available). We hope that v4 can be released in the next weeks.10
$10 is more than worth it for this great tool! Upgrading now.
(2020-10-13, 09:27)Seth77 Wrote: [ -> ]
(2020-10-11, 01:44)spl147 Wrote: [ -> ]
(2020-10-10, 23:36)Seth77 Wrote: [ -> ]hi,

good tool ; but very disappointed that the v4 is not free

Because you think developers should work for free? Or because you can not afford $12/year?

I am confused.......

This software is far above and beyond anything i have ever used, it’s worth double what they charge, not to mention their support is second to none.

So complaining that the software is not free is like saying it/they are not good enough to get paid.

Would you rather if support just stopped and the software disappeared?

:-)
Yes for me is too much $12/year
I used the software very little
other free software is very good

br


Ok so go use the other free software
Any plans to have other license options besides yearly, such as lifetime?
(2020-10-20, 09:05)ByteShare Wrote: [ -> ]Any plans to have other license options besides yearly, such as lifetime?

Good idea !
yes we have considered that but due to piracy concerns we've decided against that - if lifetime licenses find their way to license keys sites, we're kinda doomed because we want to avoid live online checks for license validation. We've already spoken to other developers with such a setup and they told us that this IS an issue and they would not do that anymore..
it's very good like that Wink
I have no problem with paying for something which is worth it which I do agree is worth it. The major problem when the area is selected as a fraud zone and the banks wont allow payment to process. It's not about being overseas as well as I can buy things from United Kingdom, China, Japan, Etc... I would love to buy the softwear as I do find the "free" version is limited unless you use the older versions. 

"I apologize for the inconvenience. You will not be able to submit this payment. The merchant is based in Great Britain. There has been an excessive amount of fraud in the area recently, and a block has been placed on this country."
@Cyprien please contact me via PM (if your new account is allowed to) or write me an email to [email protected] I am sure we will find a solution
Hi  ..

What does "No upgrade from v3 is needed! If you are satisfied with v3, you can still use it. But there will be no more features added in v3 - just urgent bug fixes." exacly mean ?
  Is fixing scrappers if api change an "urgent bug fix" ?
  If not, then it means you can use V3 as long as it works ... and not as long as i am satisied with v3 features ...

"tinyMediaManager remains Open Source - the code is still freely available" ...
Yes ... thats true .... and not ... if i build it from Git ... i get the unlicensed version ...
Removing the none FREE parts is possible but anoying ... you routed parts of the scrapper queue over the propertiary licensing jar
I personally wouldn't call this open source ...
... use lame and useless ... upper lowercase protection trash (NUL,nUL,Nul,nul,...) in licesing jar ...

piracy concerns ....
How is it possible ... its open source !?
There can't be any piracy on open source software !

And legally ... if SOMEBODY clones the v4 repository ... remove the licensing dependency ...
there is not much in there ... the scrapper cue inherit from your licensing class so it cant work whitout
counter for API uses for trial period, check date if license is still valid, and the scrapper API-Keys ...
... so take the API-keys and the decyption code from v3 ... -> OpenSource ... to  be safe leave it encrypted ...
and publish a REAL opensource version of TMM let's name it TMM-ROS (RealOpenSource) ...
There is nothing you can do against it .... its open source .... so ...  no need for piracy ....

The money ....
10 Euro per Year isnt much money .... and TMM IS WORTH IT ...
BUT ... thats not the point ...
I DONATE comparable amounts for other tools yearly ....
But trie to force users to pay for opensource ... im disappointed ...

I'm sure you say ... Donation .... dont work .... i have a donation button on the website .... nobody used it ....
Others do it more cleverly .... anoying NagScreen ... and a Big Donation Button in the Toolbar to motivate to click on it ... every time i use the Programm ...
And after donation (Licensing) the Nagscreen and Button go away .... for a Year ....
If you want to give extra motivation .... create PRO-Features (not the MAIN features) ...
Your limitation of the MAIN feature - scrapping - of TMM isnt acceptable ....

So what should i do ....
Use another TOOL ... to be honest .... at the moment there is not much compareable ... maybe EMM ... partly ... not real ....
Pay the money ... maybe ... but at the moment im angry and dissapointed ....
Be the SOMEBODY who release TMM-ROS ? Maybe .... but this wouldn't be a solution ... more some kind of fight ... every time you release a new version ... senseless wasted resouces and time ...

So ... for now ... i don't know ....
I stay on v3 as long as it works ... and watch how this goes on ...
Maybe TMM find ists way back to the right path ...
well I understand your frustration, but please see it from our side:

we work hard for tmm (for 8 years now) and now the time has come, that we cannot do that _for free_ any more.

Our initial intention was to provide a repository which can be compiled by the user to get the full tmm experience. But while developing the license module, we saw that there is a big mistake of thought: git is powerful (as it should be).
By using git for our code base, it would be rather easy to fork our work (open source), remove the license module (if we would not have integrated this deeply), and create an own release channel to provide a runable _full version_ of tmm without the need of a license - that is priacy! By using git, those forks can include (merge) all our new features/bug fixes with just one command and they can continue to distribute tmm for free.

So just see it from our side: if we would not have created a deep integration of the license module, we would have opened doors for others to distribute our work for free (and basically this is allowed with open source!)

one more thing - I think you do not fully understand the difference between Open Source and Freeware! tmm is Open Source (its sources are open), but not Freeware - https://dzone.com/articles/free-software...-whats-the
Hi ..

>> to provide a runable _full version_ of tmm without the need of a license - that is priacy

If "SOMEBODY" include your closed sorce license-manager .... yes ... but only for THAT part ...
the rest is under Apache 2.0 License

... each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable copyright license to reproduce, prepare Derivative Works of, publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute the Work and such Derivative Works in Source or Object form ...

So no Piracy als long as the licensing Code isn't used ... and who want to do that ...
You dont see the point ... BREAKING and CRACKING your licensing scheme is piracy .... removing it from the open source code and redistributing it even as compiled running one is covered by Apache License !

Beside ... the whole Licensing closed-source thing is dangerously on the border of Apache License .... the code parts that belong to the scrapper are derived from code under Apache Licendse and are ... if we see the license strictly ... not alowed to be closed source ...

And even ... does Apache License allow a mix with closed-source components ?


>>you do not fully understand the difference between Open Source and Freeware

I do ... you too Huh
Freeware ... simple explaind ... means you are free to use it under the Terms of the License ... but it can be closed-source .... and it dont imply that you are allowed to modify ...
opensource .... only mean the sorce-code is open and is observable .... not more ore less ...

BUT ... TMM is licensed under Apache License 2.0 ...... and that are the rules .... not meaningless trems as freeware or opensource .....
It allows everybody ... or SOMEBODY Wink a broad spectrum of things he can do with it ... even sell it .... its no piracy he's totally allowd to do that .... as same as you ....

So ... you are completly allowed to do what you do ..... thats why i wrote : "I personally wouldn't call this open source ..." ....

And yes ... you are doomed .... once you published a Project under a License like Apache .... "irrevocable copyright license to ...." ... you can't take it back .... as long as you dont start TMM completly from SCRATCH .... it ... and all derived code are bound to it's rules ....

And to take it to the extreme ....
SOMEBODY coulde even do the same thing as you ....
- take the sources from git
- write a licensing module
- eventually ... build an updating mechanism and a launcher
- register at paddle and sell it for ... lets say 2 Euro less than you ...

It  woulde be completly covered by Apache License ... no piracy ... no copyright infringement ....
 ... your income rely on the lazyness of people ...

So how can you sell things that are "free" (... in the terms of Apache license) ...
Service, Support, additional Pro features ...
Not by crippeling the main functionality .... that may motivate people to overcome their lazyness ...


>>it would be rather easy to fork our work (open source), remove the license module (if we would not have integrated this deeply)
If i can do it in a handful hours ... maybe some more ... i'm rarely use java and lacking of java-experience .... so after some trial and a lot of errors ...
How long woulde an experienced java-programmer need to do it ?

Don't fear real crackers ... there is no challange ... and no fame and honor to gain ... in "cracking" ... or better changing "freely" aviable source code ..... Wink
And even for "compiled" closed-source java ... count it to source freely aviable ... java isn't made with security and confidential in mind ...
... most java protection schemes are on obscurification and script-kiddy level .... (NUL,nul,Nul,nUl,...., refactoring to one letter functions,....) ... similaities to your licensing.jar are completly accidental .... Wink


So ... dont missunderstand me ... i'm no enemy, i don't think its wrong to ask for money ....
But the path you're started to went .... isn't the right one ... in my opinion ....


Im happyly pay for additional comfort and features .... but not for remove added crippling ... that render the software whitout to unsuable ....

Aceptable limitations:
scrapper que -> maybe slow it down in unlicensed version
no use of universal-scrapper
no use of image cache
no individual selection of coverart ... only automatic scrapping ... maybe
....

They are some kind of crippling too .... but they are only anoying and don't stop somebody to use tmm ...

so lazyness is the motivation to pay and lazyness is holding people off from building their onwn tmm


And thanks for your reply ... i was neraly shure you ignore my post ....


PS: Und  ... tschuldigung für mein unbeholfenes Englisch ... mein Deutsch ist (etwas) besser shließlich sind wir ja aus dem selben Land ...

LG
Robert
so lets calm down and go a step back.

I did not figure out WHAT exactly your problem with our model is? Do you want us to go closed source or are you just pissed that we finally take a fee for the work we do for you and others (and to be honest - in times where we can basically stream everything, I rarely need tmm for myself, so the time I invest for tmm is really just for others).

Do you want us to build a version of tmm, where there is no limitation to the amount of movies/TV shows loaded into tmm? (but is restricting "pro" features in a test version better than offering all features to test for a limited amount of entities?)

just to answer some of your questions
Quote:  Is fixing scrappers if api change an "urgent bug fix" ?
  If not, then it means you can use V3 as long as it works ... and not as long as i am satisied with v3 features ...
if it is a quick fix which does not need much of work we may do it... on the other hand - do YOU think we are obliged to do that? As I read out of these two lines I get a feeling that you think we are obliged to fix the software we create in our spare time for free...
Quote:But trie to force users to pay for opensource ... im disappointed ...
looks like you did not read the first post exactly:
Quote:Since the lion's share of the work (development, maintenance, deployment, ...) remains within the tinyMediaManager team, we decided to charge an annual fee for the ongoing work on the project (starting with v4). 
We do not try to take money for the software itself (that's why it is still OpenSource - to share our solutions with other developers) - we try to get a financial compensation for the time we invest for YOU and others.. As you probably know, living in central Europe is not cheap those days and if I would not have taken this way, I would have to stop development of tmm and do another job in my spare time.
We have started as a pure OpenSource project - but as you see, there is not much help from the community/users. Most of them are just consumers rather than contributors. And how do you think should an OpenSource project in this size work without a broad base of contributors? As you guessed - this won't work and that's why so much smaller OpenSource projects just die because their developers just stop doing everything for free
Quote:Be the SOMEBODY who release TMM-ROS ? Maybe .... but this wouldn't be a solution ... more some kind of fight ... every time you release a new version ... senseless wasted resouces and time ...
This won't help you nor won't help us... this would be just a step further to make us thinking about stopping tmm completely
Quote:so lazyness is the motivation to pay and lazyness is holding people off from building their onwn tmm
that is exactly the point! we invest our lifetime to save our lifetime.. and a (small in my mind) fee for that is appropriate. I know there is the German "geiz ist geil" mentality, but that won't pay any bills of creators (be it software developers, photographs or bloggers)...

sorry, but you have spent a lot of time writing what is possible and what is not possible - mixed with facts and interpretations of the Apache License.. but wouldn't that (life)time be better invested into something useful? I can just say you wasted a lot of my time (which I would have spent for something valuable in tmm) and in the end probably no one of us took any benefit from this discussion
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