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+--- Thread: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft (/showthread.php?tid=117995)
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - natethomas - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 16:57)FailBoatSailsOn Wrote: According to US copyright law, ROMs are completely illegal because they're for "archival purposes" only. The second you start playing them (even if you back them up yourself), they stop being archives and are actively used copies - or so quite a few lawyers have explained.
To my knowledge no case law supports this theory, and it shouldn't, as backed up ROMs fall into the same category as ripped music from CDs. In both cases, you are simply format shifting media without breaking DRM. If format shifting were illegal, Apple would have had its doors busted down by the cops a decade ago for iTunes.
edit: I'd be curious to hear which "lawyers" you've been talking to.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - FailBoatSailsOn - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 19:59)natethomas Wrote:(2014-09-20, 16:57)FailBoatSailsOn Wrote: According to US copyright law, ROMs are completely illegal because they're for "archival purposes" only. The second you start playing them (even if you back them up yourself), they stop being archives and are actively used copies - or so quite a few lawyers have explained.
To my knowledge no case law supports this theory, and it shouldn't, as backed up ROMs fall into the same category as ripped music from CDs. In both cases, you are simply format shifting media without breaking DRM. If format shifting were illegal, Apple would have had its doors busted down by the cops a decade ago for iTunes.
edit: I'd be curious to hear which "lawyers" you've been talking to.
The RIAA wanted to make format shifting illegal and would've been successful in doing so if MP3 players and such weren't already popular. The Apple argument would be invalid either way considering Apple has deep pockets and would purchase the rights for their software to do so in order to push Apple software and hardware.
Saying that there's no case doesn't make it irrelevant. We all know how effortlessly rom warehouses are found on the net with no one, not even Nintendo, bothering to shut them down. However, if these companies didn't care about consumer backlash and went on a witch hunt, they'd be in the legal right.
Regardless, you're failing to acknowledge virtually every aspect of the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) which states that circumventing copy protection measures makes even archival copies unlawful. That said, in the US, you can't legally rip ANY commercial DVD because they're all copy-protected - see MPAA vs RealNetworks and RealNetworks vs. DVD Copy Control Association. The rulings on these take me back to this point because it goes back to ROMs and how almost every cartridge and game disc had copy protection in place, including the BIOS of the systems being emulated by the emulators themselves, and the second that protection is circumvented, the copy is rendered unlawful - voiding both the Fair Use and Archival exemption clauses.
Furthermore, there's the EULA in even the oldest game manuals that state the games may not be copied under ANY circumstance, even archival, which overrides any and all exemptions.
EDIT: Last but not least, https://ap.nintendo.com/faq/#circumvention
Q: Are infringing devices such as game copiers for Nintendo Handheld systems or mod chips for Nintendo Wii console illegal in the U.S.?
A: Yes. Game copiers that are used to copy video game software without authorization onto any type of memory device or the hard drive of a personal computer are illegal. They enable the user to make, play and distribute illegal copies of video game software, which violates Nintendo's copyrights and trademarks. Mod chips are also designed to circumvent the copy-protection security system and deem the detection process inoperable, enabling the console to play pirated or illegal copies of Nintendo games downloaded from the Internet. Based upon the functions of these devices, they are illegal.
As for the lawyers, virtually every legal advice page / tech blog / tech magazine article regarding emulation is uniform on this with the lawyers they interviewed.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - natethomas - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 21:53)FailBoatSailsOn Wrote: That said, in the US, you can't legally rip ANY commercial DVD. I make this point because it goes back to ROMs and how almost every cartridge and game disc has copy protection in place, including the BIOS of the systems being emulated by the emulators themselves, and the second that protection is circumvented, the copy is rendered unlawful - voiding both the Fair Use and Archival exemption clauses.
This is simply incorrect. Copy protection on video games didn't exist until either the PS1 or PS2, and at that time it was limited to a specific number of games. All ROM-based games dating back to forever have been released completely unprotected by DRM.
Beyond that, you're just kind drifting from topic to topic, never making any actually valid point. An EULA doesn't confer additional copyright powers, nor does it eliminate fair use. Violating an EULA isn't illegal, and the punishment associated with it is virtually impossible to impose, particularly with old games where the owner of the cartridge likely never actually got the handbook that went with the cartridge.
As far as your lawyers comment, please. Provide a single link. Otherwise, give up on that avenue.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - prawnee - 2014-09-20
Regardless of Kodi's stance on this, I'm not really sure where you stand? Your comments are trying to convey the legalities of the practice and how it must be illegal to do so, yet there you are posting in the Rom Collection Browser thread. So to summarise you think Kodi should uphold any laws regarding copying ROMS (laws which you don't necessarily agree with) and laws in which your happy to break!?
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - FailBoatSailsOn - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 22:02)natethomas Wrote:(2014-09-20, 21:53)FailBoatSailsOn Wrote: That said, in the US, you can't legally rip ANY commercial DVD. I make this point because it goes back to ROMs and how almost every cartridge and game disc has copy protection in place, including the BIOS of the systems being emulated by the emulators themselves, and the second that protection is circumvented, the copy is rendered unlawful - voiding both the Fair Use and Archival exemption clauses.
This is simply incorrect. Copy protection on video games didn't exist until either the PS1 or PS2, and at that time it was limited to a specific number of games. All ROM-based games dating back to forever have been released completely unprotected by DRM.
This only proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Try using a Game Genie on Donkey Kong Country or Super Metroid, which gets erronously detected as a game copier and you'll be greeted with an anti-piracy screen that also says your save data has been deleted as punishment.
Hell, even Famicom titles like Mother 1 have it http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3104/uhohcc0.jpg
Just because the copy protection was effortless to bypass doesn't mean it wasn't there.
XBMC, the pirate add-on maker that shuns piracy. lol What a joke
(2014-09-20, 22:10)prawnee Wrote: Regardless of Kodi's stance on this, I'm not really sure where you stand? Your comments are trying to convey the legalities of the practice and how it must be illegal to do so, yet there you are posting in the Rom Collection Browser thread. So to summarise you think Kodi should uphold any laws regarding copying ROMS (laws which you don't necessarily agree with) and laws in which your happy to break!?
You must've missed something. I'm simply calling out the Kodi team as hypocrites because they're anti-piracy yet have RCB in their official repo and allow threads of it, which indirect endorses and supports it. Can't really get any more knee-deep in the realm of conflict of interest than that.
Personally, I'm against US copyright laws (its pure madness), but I can't stand hypocrites that have a wall of shame like the Garbage Bin sub-forum, showing people's posts getting deleted and locked for piracy talk yet they are huge enablers of it with RCB.
I'm just telling Team Kodi to stop discrediting and embarassing itself.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - Ned Scott - 2014-09-20
Nintendo actually certified Game Genie as an official Nintendo accessory.
We don't shun piracy. We just don't want people talking about it on XBMC.org. We've literally said that this is to just keep us out of hot water and it isn't any kind or moral statement. Kind of like how I think pot should be legal, but that doesn't mean I smoke it in front of a cop.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand?
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - natethomas - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 22:21)FailBoatSailsOn Wrote: This only proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Try using a Game Genie on Donkey Kong Country or Super Metroid and you'll be greeted with an anti-piracy screen that also says your save data has been deleted as punishment.
The DRM in both DKC and SM came from something called the CIC, which was a chip on the SNES and NES consoles that prevented copied games from being run on those systems. The DMCA prevents the circumvention of DRM, which in the case of the SNES and NES means you can't over volt the console or otherwise break the CIC. There was no copy protection on the cartridge itself, as Nintendo chose to attempt to prevent copies from running on the console rather than preventing rips from the cartridge.
So I stand by my assertion. Copy protection did not exist on these games, so ripping them from the cartridge does not violate the DMCA.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - natethomas - 2014-09-20
A secondary point worth making, I think, is that this ROM argument is fairly dumb in the first place. The issue is not now, nor has it ever been about playing copyrighted content. The issue is about using XBMC/Kodi to download/distribute copyrighted content.
If your argument is that RCB should not be allowed, because it allows the playing of illegal ROMs, who cares? XBMC allows the playing of illegally ripped movies and tv shows. We've stood by the user's right to do what they want in that regard since the beginning. The only really valid argument would be RCB should not be allowed, because it enables the finding and procuring of illegally downloadable ROMs, basically doing for games what all those trashed conversations do for movies. IF that's your argument, it's a much better one worth talking about.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - FailBoatSailsOn - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 22:32)natethomas Wrote:(2014-09-20, 22:21)FailBoatSailsOn Wrote: This only proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Try using a Game Genie on Donkey Kong Country or Super Metroid and you'll be greeted with an anti-piracy screen that also says your save data has been deleted as punishment.
The DRM in both DKC and SM came from something called the CIC, which was a chip on the SNES and NES consoles that prevented copied games from being run on those systems. The DMCA prevents the circumvention of DRM, which in the case of the SNES and NES means you can't over volt the console or otherwise break the CIC. There was no copy protection on the cartridge itself, as Nintendo chose to attempt to prevent copies from running on the console rather than preventing rips from the cartridge.
So I stand by my assertion. Copy protection did not exist on these games, so ripping them from the cartridge does not violate the DMCA.
I'm 90% positive that any court would rule in Nintendo's favor given that those games had customized warnings and in DKC's case even artwork along with the warning stating that the copy is illegal and infringes on Nintendo's rights. Paint it any way you like, it's still illegal. The game developers went out of their way to prevent the use and / or creation of copies and the messages even state the illegitimacy of said copies.
And for the guy who said Game Genie is a licensed product... did we forget about Nintendo vs Galoob Toys? Nintendo lost the case on a technicality that cheat codes don't count as derivative works but in a similar suit later on, Micro Star vs FormGen Inc., the court didn't accept the Galoob ruling as a sufficient defense, saying it's "dicta" (non-binding)
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - Ned Scott - 2014-09-20
Ah, sorry, it was Sega that embraced Game Genie.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - natethomas - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 22:46)FailBoatSailsOn Wrote: I'm 90% positive that any court would rule in Nintendo's favor given that those games had customized warnings and in DKC's case even artwork along with the warning stating that the copy is illegal and infringes on Nintendo's rights.
And I'm 90% positive they would not. What does that prove? And what does artwork and a warning have to do with DMCA anti-circumvention rules, which are incredibly narrowly rules that apply exclusively to the circumvention of DRM? And, to reiterate my previous point, why are we even having this conversation, given that we don't have any rules against discussing the playing of ripped content, regardless of illegality anyway?
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - FailBoatSailsOn - 2014-09-20
(2014-09-20, 22:38)natethomas Wrote: A secondary point worth making, I think, is that this ROM argument is fairly dumb in the first place. The issue is not now, nor has it ever been about playing copyrighted content. The issue is about using XBMC/Kodi to download/distribute copyrighted content.
If your argument is that RCB should not be allowed, because it allows the playing of illegal ROMs, who cares? XBMC allows the playing of illegally ripped movies and tv shows. We've stood by the user's right to do what they want in that regard since the beginning. The only really valid argument would be RCB should not be allowed, because it enables the finding and procuring of illegally downloadable ROMs, basically doing for games what all those trashed conversations do for movies. IF that's your argument, it's a much better one worth talking about.
My argument is that Kodi's policy explicitly states that talk of any add-on that even accesses illegal content (see also ROMs) is in violation of the policy. And one of the most recent trashed conversations was simply someone asking for support when his installation got hosed after running an emulator via RCB, if I recall from this morning.
Yet in spite of this, there's threads dedicated to RCB. If you can't see the hypocrisy in that then I don't know what to tell you and perhaps personal bias is at play.
On a sidenote, I don't see how RCB can procure roms as to my knowledge it can only access one's ROMs (which from our above discussion was to prove that 99.9% of all roms are illegal), feed them through an emulator (which are shades of grey in and of itself), and scrape metadata for them.
So I guess my point is that if Kodi wishes to not be seen as hypocrites, to either:
A.) Stop kidding themselves and everyone else, and just turn a blind eye to piracy talk outside of direct links to infringing content.
OR
B.) Shut down all RCB threads and talk. Perhaps going as far as removing it from the official repo and leaving it for 3rd party "unofficial" repos to carry and maintain.
And no, I don't care if Option B is to my own detriment. I just can't stand hypocrisy, especially when said hypocrites are employing tar and feather tactics.
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - Martijn - 2014-09-20
C) get a live
RE: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - natethomas - 2014-09-20
Are you talking about this thread: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=204723 ?
I didn't personally trash it, but it explicitly mentioned navi-x and mashup, which I presume is why it got trashed. Had nothing to do with the rom emulator.
Re: XBMC's Piracy Stance: Draft - nickr - 2014-09-20
Yes XBMC's policies do sometimes seem to be inconsistent. But the site belongs to the foundation. If you don't like this forum's policies, go start your own XBMC support forum and make your own rules.