Kodi Community Forum
Bay Trail-D motherboards - Printable Version

+- Kodi Community Forum (https://forum.kodi.tv)
+-- Forum: Discussions (https://forum.kodi.tv/forumdisplay.php?fid=222)
+--- Forum: Hardware (https://forum.kodi.tv/forumdisplay.php?fid=112)
+--- Thread: Bay Trail-D motherboards (/showthread.php?tid=184930)



RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - kbaggen - 2014-05-20

Second question, anyone have a guide or tread to read something more on xbmc upscale/deinterleace possiblities/issues etc.?!?!?

(2014-05-20, 14:05)fritsch Wrote: Jep, that should not be possible. Cause another tester made windows tests for me and ended with just 30 fps. Do you have a logfile? Btw. Can you check the CPU load while doing that. IIRC DXVA copies the surface back to memory anyways, that one should be seen in the cpu load.


I also still want the other OE tests logfiles to verify that there were no other issues.

I will try follow you test parameter a bit more carefull and see if you can make log etc.! CPU load was 10-12% as I recall! not something high at least! I change settings after starting the file, so that might have an influence! Thinking I muight need to set the settings "Lacross3 on", save, then reboot to ensure it etc.!


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - ertman - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 13:21)jammyb Wrote:
(2014-05-20, 12:33)ertman Wrote:
(2014-05-20, 10:50)jammyb Wrote: NUC is a model from a brand [Intel] It's not clever marketing.

A NUC alternative would be one that is similar in size [these aren't] running similar specs and cost less.

If you called them a mini HTPC you'd be spot on. But there are many mini HTPCs. Fully customisable or prebuilt. A NUC is a simple and effective mini PC that can be an HTPC too. You'll find most might start with a NUC. Then want to leave the "walled garden" and build their own. NUC users aren't in the dark ages. NUCs aren't exactly cheap once fully built. But they're more than capable. It's down to the end user. If a NUC is too expensive. People will look elsewhere. To say NUC users are stuck in the dark ages is narrow minded. I've had the mk1 847, played with a mk2 i3 and currently have the 2820. For their abilities and size. They're spot on. The new fanless one is my next view!

A wii isn't an alternative to an Xbox. Can you play GTA on wii? Just as my van isn't an alternative to a Ferrari! Tongue

Broadly speaking your examples are alternatives, even the van and Ferrari, and the Wii is a specific (gaming) alternative to the Xbox, and so is a PC, you are just restricted by content, but you can still play and enjoy gaming.

So broadly speaking and for all intents and purposes as we are on xbmc.org, any system capable of running xbmc is an alternative. Bay-Trail can be a specific alternative to a NUC, if you have a very small case then it is reasonable to call it an alternative, with the caveat that it is indeed larger than a NUC. A bay trail in a full-size case would not be an alternative.

Price has little to do with being an alternative, unless that is one of your main criteria. For example, there could be a more/less expensive alternatives to the NUC with a similar size.


Broadly speaking, sure. But I'm not broadly speaking. You are.

If I was specifically looking for a NUC alternative for XBMC. Then as you said. A Zotac would be near it. :

Same goes if I specifically wanted to play GTA, CoD or even Batman. I'd choose Xbox or Playstation. The Wii isn't an alternative.

But broadly speaking. They can all play games. But I'm not broadly speaking.

My van isn't red, nor has 100's of horses or leather interior. If I was looking specifically to buy a supercar. I wouldn't be looking in van trader. But broadly speaking. [which I'm not, remember] I'd have more room in the back and better MPG!

We all understand where the OP comes from. If anything it should be "NUC inspired" not "NUC alternative".

Smile

You are missing my point of an alternative, and inappropriately applying analogies that are muddying the point. There are many possible criteria for determining an alternative. Based on what you have presented, size is the sticking point that you have for why a bay-trail or any mini-itx solution can't be considered an alternative to a nuc. If both platforms offer products capable of running xbmc and content, then it is not capabilities.

At what size do you no longer consider it an alternative? Not the same size or smaller? Is a gigabyte brix pro an alternative? It is taller. What advantages or benefits does 4x4 inches provide over an 8x8 (or less) solution? I understand that a small system is preferable, but any capable itx system in a very compact case can provide the service as a nuc, where the size does not offer any appreciable benefits. Is size purely arbitrary in determining alternatives?

I do understand the points you have previously made and I concede that the nuc is an excellent choice for people in their own particular scenario, and that are not similarly sized, I just don't see how a mini-itx cannot be an alternative to a nuc. For example, to me the gigabyte brix is a similarly sized alternative, and the mini-itx is a larger but still compact (given a compact case) alternative.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - fritsch - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 14:06)kbaggen Wrote: Second question, anyone have a guide or tread to read something more on xbmc upscale/deinterleace possiblities/issues etc.?!?!?

(2014-05-20, 14:05)fritsch Wrote: Jep, that should not be possible. Cause another tester made windows tests for me and ended with just 30 fps. Do you have a logfile? Btw. Can you check the CPU load while doing that. IIRC DXVA copies the surface back to memory anyways, that one should be seen in the cpu load.


I also still want the other OE tests logfiles to verify that there were no other issues.

I will try follow you test parameter a bit more carefull and see if you can make log etc.! CPU load was 10-12% as I recall! not something high at least! I change settings after starting the file, so that might have an influence! Thinking I muight need to set the settings "Lacross3 on", save, then reboot to ensure it etc.!

If you find a bit time, you could directly compare with OE. But take care if the USB stick is damn slow perhaps even reading the testfiles is too slow :-)

In OE you can provide logfile by sshing in (root pwd: openelec)
and doing:
cat /storage/.xbmc/temp/xbmc.log | pastebinit


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - kbaggen - 2014-05-20

If Wife let me play, I will try find the time :-)


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - jammyb - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 14:28)ertman Wrote:
(2014-05-20, 13:21)jammyb Wrote:
(2014-05-20, 12:33)ertman Wrote: Broadly speaking your examples are alternatives, even the van and Ferrari, and the Wii is a specific (gaming) alternative to the Xbox, and so is a PC, you are just restricted by content, but you can still play and enjoy gaming.

So broadly speaking and for all intents and purposes as we are on xbmc.org, any system capable of running xbmc is an alternative. Bay-Trail can be a specific alternative to a NUC, if you have a very small case then it is reasonable to call it an alternative, with the caveat that it is indeed larger than a NUC. A bay trail in a full-size case would not be an alternative.

Price has little to do with being an alternative, unless that is one of your main criteria. For example, there could be a more/less expensive alternatives to the NUC with a similar size.


Broadly speaking, sure. But I'm not broadly speaking. You are.

If I was specifically looking for a NUC alternative for XBMC. Then as you said. A Zotac would be near it. :

Same goes if I specifically wanted to play GTA, CoD or even Batman. I'd choose Xbox or Playstation. The Wii isn't an alternative.

But broadly speaking. They can all play games. But I'm not broadly speaking.

My van isn't red, nor has 100's of horses or leather interior. If I was looking specifically to buy a supercar. I wouldn't be looking in van trader. But broadly speaking. [which I'm not, remember] I'd have more room in the back and better MPG!

We all understand where the OP comes from. If anything it should be "NUC inspired" not "NUC alternative".

Smile

You are missing my point of an alternative, and inappropriately applying analogies that are muddying the point. There are many possible criteria for determining an alternative. Based on what you have presented, size is the sticking point that you have for why a bay-trail or any mini-itx solution can't be considered an alternative to a nuc. If both platforms offer products capable of running xbmc and content, then it is not capabilities.

At what size do you no longer consider it an alternative? Not the same size or smaller? Is a gigabyte brix pro an alternative? It is taller. What advantages or benefits does 4x4 inches provide over an 8x8 (or less) solution? I understand that a small system is preferable, but any capable itx system in a very compact case can provide the service as a nuc, where the size does not offer any appreciable benefits. Is size purely arbitrary in determining alternatives?

I do understand the points you have previously made and I concede that the nuc is an excellent choice for people in their own particular scenario, and that are not similarly sized, I just don't see how a mini-itx cannot be an alternative to a nuc. For example, to me the gigabyte brix is a similarly sized alternative, and the mini-itx is a larger but still compact (given a compact case) alternative.


NUC is a form factor. Therefore Zotac, Brix are alternatives to it. if you're running a mini HTPC regardless of processor type etc. it's a mini HTPC. The only real reason this "NUC alternative" term came about is because a lot of us on here have a NUC and the hardware section is filled with NUC threads. To gain views of different builds, "NUC alternative" has appeared.

The mini HTPC's from DX etc, are awesome kits. The only reason they don't get more traction is the way in which you buy them is a bit difficult. The builds Dougie makes, superb! He Instills confidence in those to build their own!

But If intel hadn't put CIR into their NUCs. They would never have taken off as well as they did.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - trsqr - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-19, 15:24)fritsch Wrote: VPP implements three different methods for Deinterlacing:
- Simple Bob (IVB, HSW)
- MADI - Motion Adaptive Deinterlacing (IVB, HSW)
- MACI - Motion Compensation Deinterlacing (HSW)

Using the OE test image Sraue posted on E3815 I get VAAPI BOB and VAAPI Auto as the options. Both produce similar results. Scaling is set to Bilinear and deinterlacing to Auto.

Your 576i sample: I get around 43-50 (mostly around 47) fps and screen tearing (log).
Your 1080i sample: The fps says 12-39 but in reality the picture is updated maybe once per 5 seconds (log).

I could run 576i deinterlacing with the normal 4.0.2 build thou.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - lewzer - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 14:31)fritsch Wrote: In OE you can provide logfile by sshing in (root pwd: openelec)
and doing:
cat /storage/.xbmc/temp/xbmc.log | pastebinit

Here is the log file from my test results that I've posted earlier on the Q1900-ITX.
http://ts.l2club.eu/dumps/xbmc.log


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - ertman - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 15:53)jammyb Wrote: NUC is a form factor. Therefore Zotac, Brix are alternatives to it. if you're running a mini HTPC regardless of processor type etc. it's a mini HTPC. The only real reason this "NUC alternative" term came about is because a lot of us on here have a NUC and the hardware section is filled with NUC threads. To gain views of different builds, "NUC alternative" has appeared.

The mini HTPC's from DX etc, are awesome kits. The only reason they don't get more traction is the way in which you buy them is a bit difficult. The builds Dougie makes, superb! He Instills confidence in those to build their own!

But If intel hadn't put CIR into their NUCs. They would never have taken off as well as they did.
Nice reply.

Ok, I think I see the problem, it's more of a definition and language disagreement. I and many others are generalizing, even if incorrectly, that the NUC to not just a form factor but also a product created by a company, specifically Intel. Therefore when considering an alternative, anything else that provide many of the same benefits, without necessarily restricting oneself to a specific form factor is considered.

If we are too look at the NUC as strictly a form factor, similar to atx, then any other form factor that is not a NUC form factor is technically an alternative. Similar to how m-atx is an alternative to atx. To further extrapolate this, an alternative to a NUC based mini-pc being used as a htpc, is any pc running as htpc, regardless of size or shape. If you wish to narrow further, then one should consider any pc running as a htpc in a form factor that can provide most if not all benefits and advantages that a NUC based mini-pc that is running as a htpc can offer. I argue that a mini-itx system in a suitably sized enclosure running as a htpc does meet that definition.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - nooryani84 - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 17:01)ertman Wrote:
(2014-05-20, 15:53)jammyb Wrote: NUC is a form factor. Therefore Zotac, Brix are alternatives to it. if you're running a mini HTPC regardless of processor type etc. it's a mini HTPC. The only real reason this "NUC alternative" term came about is because a lot of us on here have a NUC and the hardware section is filled with NUC threads. To gain views of different builds, "NUC alternative" has appeared.

The mini HTPC's from DX etc, are awesome kits. The only reason they don't get more traction is the way in which you buy them is a bit difficult. The builds Dougie makes, superb! He Instills confidence in those to build their own!

But If intel hadn't put CIR into their NUCs. They would never have taken off as well as they did.
Nice reply.

Ok, I think I see the problem, it's more of a definition and language disagreement. I and many others are generalizing, even if incorrectly, that the NUC to not just a form factor but also a product created by a company, specifically Intel. Therefore when considering an alternative, anything else that provide many of the same benefits, without necessarily restricting oneself to a specific form factor is considered.

If we are too look at the NUC as strictly a form factor, similar to atx, then any other form factor that is not a NUC form factor is technically an alternative. Similar to how m-atx is an alternative to atx. To further extrapolate this, an alternative to a NUC based mini-pc being used as a htpc, is any pc running as htpc, regardless of size or shape. If you wish to narrow further, then one should consider any pc running as a htpc in a form factor that can provide most if not all benefits and advantages that a NUC based mini-pc that is running as a htpc can offer. I argue that a mini-itx system in a suitably sized enclosure running as a htpc does meet that definition.

Sorry, I have also misunderstood what you meant by alternative. When I hear alternative I automatically think: something almost the same/very similar which is why I didn't agree with calling any small HTPC a NUC alternative. Of course this is purely semantics and a matter of how people phrase things differently. In that sense, anything that can run XBMC (even a phone) would be a NUC alternative. Though in the context of most users I don't think that's what they mean.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - fritsch - 2014-05-20

Thanks for the testing. I hope I get arround to implement it in another way. For now I think the multithreaded GPU approach is not what works out on such slow GPUs. Doing it directly after decoding could be better.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - lewzer - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 17:28)fritsch Wrote: Thanks for the testing. I hope I get arround to implement it in another way. For now I think the multithreaded GPU approach is not what works out on such slow GPUs. Doing it directly after decoding could be better.
You're welcome. If you do ever need more testing or checking on the J1900 CPU I'm more than willing to help you with it.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - fritsch - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 17:52)lewzer Wrote:
(2014-05-20, 17:28)fritsch Wrote: Thanks for the testing. I hope I get arround to implement it in another way. For now I think the multithreaded GPU approach is not what works out on such slow GPUs. Doing it directly after decoding could be better.
You're welcome. If you do ever need more testing or checking on the J1900 CPU I'm more than willing to help you with it.


If you want to give it another try, you can enable MADI by creating:

/storage/.xbmc/userdata/advancedsettings.xml with the following content:

Code:
<advancedsettings>
<video>
<vaapiadvanceddeint>true</vaapiadvanceddeint>
</video>
</advancedsettings>

then restart xbmc. Curious if that works for 576i

Edit: Please disable VDPAU under Video -> Acceleration. You only need VAAPI.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - kbaggen - 2014-05-20

try this:

http://efshare.com/?s=MPATV9

code: MPATV9


just ran the transfomer and i get 50 fps with lacross3, so etther xbmc do not use it even choosen or i just dont get it.


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - fritsch - 2014-05-20

from the log it even uses 6x6 convolution shader with an intermediate target ... do you see a visible difference between "lanczos3" and "bilinear"?


RE: Bay Trail-D motherboards - jammyb - 2014-05-20

(2014-05-20, 17:01)ertman Wrote: Nice reply.

Ok, I think I see the problem, it's more of a definition and language disagreement. I and many others are generalizing, even if incorrectly, that the NUC to not just a form factor but also a product created by a company, specifically Intel. Therefore when considering an alternative, anything else that provide many of the same benefits, without necessarily restricting oneself to a specific form factor is considered.

If we are too look at the NUC as strictly a form factor, similar to atx, then any other form factor that is not a NUC form factor is technically an alternative. Similar to how m-atx is an alternative to atx. To further extrapolate this, an alternative to a NUC based mini-pc being used as a htpc, is any pc running as htpc, regardless of size or shape. If you wish to narrow further, then one should consider any pc running as a htpc in a form factor that can provide most if not all benefits and advantages that a NUC based mini-pc that is running as a htpc can offer.

Agreed.


(2014-05-20, 17:22)nooryani84 Wrote: Sorry, I have also misunderstood what you meant by alternative. When I hear alternative I automatically think: something almost the same/very similar which is why I didn't agree with calling any small HTPC a NUC alternative. Of course this is purely semantics and a matter of how people phrase things differently. In that sense, anything that can run XBMC (even a phone) would be a NUC alternative. Though in the context of most users I don't think that's what they mean.


Agreed, as the way you've come across is that the NUC is "the" core standard for an HTPC and anything thst isn't a NUC is an "NUC alternative". Where maybe it should be HTPC alternative. I feel that any PC in any shape or form. Built for XBMC and the consumption of media in mind, is the core HTPC. Having a NUC is a choice decided by budget and requirements. As is a fanless bay trail box direct from Hong Kong or a custom built HTPC from Dougie. They're all alternatives. To call them NUC alternatives isn't fair on all the better builds! Would you call a Streacom FC8 a NUC alternative?


The pure reason why I have NUCs in my life? Because it lives under the stairs. They're not pretty, they're not interesting. They're small, quiet and they work very very well.

If I wanted an all singing all dancing case. It'd be front and centre under my telly. But I don't have any AV kit on show. I wanted PC power and near raspberry pi dimensions. [ok, it's twice the width and height, but you get the point! Wink ] this meets the demands and is used every day. I applaud Intel for making a unit that is "inquisitive toddler proof" :lol:

I find the bay trail units in this thread interesting as while I'd love to build or buy another. I can't justify the need. But they're not NUC alternatives. They're much better than that! In looks and price most of the time too!

Just my 2p Smile