40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy?

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40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - kwanbis - 2014-06-01

Hello guys. I’m trying to find the most cost effective solution to a problem I have. Let me explain it. Today I have a HTPC capable of 3D and 1080p that is being use with XBMC. At this point I’m not interested on any type of gaming, maybe a little bit of nostalgia emulation.

In case anyone is interested it is comprised of:

1 Intel Core i3-2100 with stock fan http://amzn.com/B004JEVGMO
1 Ultra Durable 4 Classic GA-B75N Desktop Motherboard http://amzn.com/B00B9WIM0I
1 ASUS EAH6570 Radeon HD 6570 Video Card http://amzn.com/B004X8EOB6
1 SY1225SL12L Slip Stream 120mm Case Fan
1 Rosewill Case and 1x 80mm Fan http://amzn.com/B004Q7FUG2

The HTPC connects through USB 3.0 to two Mediasonic H8R2-SU3S2 http://amzn.com/B005GYDMYQ RAID towers. On each tower I have 2 JBOD configurations: 4 x 3TB (12TB) and 4x 2TB (8TB) for a total of 20TB per tower. One tower is a backups of the other, kind of a manual RAID 1.

Now I’m about to fill both towers, and I want to create a new 40 TB tower (10 x 4 TB) that I would backup on the old two towers.

I’m evaluating two options: OPTION 1: create a low cost/low power server that can host the 10 hard drives and use some sort of software raid, and OPTION 2: create a “server/htpc” combo that would serve both purposes.

But since I would like to keep two separate threads, lets focus here on MONSTER HTPC OPTION:

For this option, I’m debating between some components, and I would love that somebody with more experience than me reviews it and gives me his/her opinion. Here it goes:

MOTHERBOARD:
ASRock Fatal1ty Z87 Professional http:///1o0w17n $157 @ http:///1rEwEYd
OR
ASRock Z97 Extreme6 http:///1hSSlu7 $170 @ http:///1jNs0NF

CASE:
Rosewill Gaming Computer Case THOR V2 http://amzn.com/B0058P5S9A
OR
Nzxt Technologies Phantom Phan-002Gr http://amzn.com/B004WO17UC

CPU:
Intel Pentium Processor G3420 3.2 GHz LGA 1150 http://amzn.com/B00EUVHMR4 (I would need to use my Radeon HD 6570)
OR
Intel Pentium Processor G3220 3.0 GHz LGA 1150 http://amzn.com/B00EUVG3P6 (I would need to use my Radeon HD 6570)
OR
Intel Core i3-4130 3.4 3 FCLGA 1150 http://amzn.com/B00EUUKVXM
OR
Intel Core i3-4150 LGA 1150 http://amzn.com/B00J2LIF2S

PSU:
I have no real idea. I want a PSU that would support whatever is installed (1xSSD, 10xHDD, CPU, GPU (if needed), Mother), and ideally cost 60 no more than 80.

The power consumption should be about 160 watts at is peak, if my calculation is correct:
Mother + CPU 112 watts (loaded).
10x WD Red 4TB @ 4.5w @ 45w (x10)
120GB SSD (kingston) @ 2.1w
TOTAL: 160 watts.

If I double that, it is 320 watts, so a 500+ watts unit should be more than enough.

So, which is the best option on those for MOTHER, CASE, CPU and PSU? Is there anything better I can buy considering that my budget is about 450?

NOTE: In case is not clear, the HTPC should play 1080p content and 3D content.

THANKS A LOT.

PS: if interested, the other thread is here: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=196856

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ORIGINAL FIRT POST:

I want to build a HTPC that would run XBMC on Windows 7, be 3D capable, boot from a 1 x 120GB SSD and have space for 10 x 4TB Western Digital green/red hard drives. It would not be used for gaming, may be a little bit of emulation.

I already have an i3 with LGA 1155 socket, 4GB of RAM, and a Radeon HD 6570 and it would be great if I can use them, but it is not mandatory.

So, what I need recommendations for are:

1) MOTHERBOARD: ideally an LGA 1155 motherboard with 11 SATA capabilities (1 SSD + 10 HDD). Minimum, it should have 10 SATA connectivity (in that case, I would have to do with 1 SSD and 9 HDD). It has to be HDMI or 3D capable or have an PCI slot for my Radeon HD 6570. USB 3.0.
2) CASE: ideally 11 or more 3.5 bays (it can be some 3.5 and some 5.25). Minimum 10 as I can leave the SSD somewhere.
3) PSU: it should be able to easily hold the 10 hdd, the SSD, the motherboard and if needed the Radeon.

I want to build a quality system, but I don’t want to overdo it without reason. For example, if a 600w PSU is good enough, I might go with a 700w PSU if there is no much of a difference or some justification.

So, what would you recommend me to buy? Please know that whatever components I buy, I would import them from USA (don't worry about that). What I mean is that I don't have the luxury of purchasing from amazon/newegg and returning if not good.

THANKS A LOT.

PS: by the way, so far I like this cases, but I don't know if they meet all of my requirements:

http://amzn.com/B003WE9WQO
http://amzn.com/B0058P5S9A
http://amzn.com/B004WO17UC

EDIT: Some clarifications:

I need to connect 10 HDDs and 1 SSD, so it is not actuall ports but "connections/devices". For RAID I was planning to use Windows 7 software RAID. The idea is to have 5 disks for movies (RAID 0 or JBOD) and 5 disks for the series (RAID 0 or JBOD again). If needed, I might add a RAID or SATA board to the bundle.

About 3D, I have an epson PowerLine 2000 projector, so it should work with that.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - MrCrispy - 2014-06-01

I'd just suggest you build the server as a separate pc and use a smaller box/pc for HTPC use. Its a slight increase in budget but will allow you to focus on just the server separately without worrying about graphics etc.

I can suggest 2 other forums where you can find a lot of build advice -

http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=43c4e47e0ced0a6a4739d2dad006a4f0&board=3.0
http://www.avsforum.com/f/26/home-theater-computers

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - radry - 2014-06-01

Why not Raid 5? It would have the benefit of added failure security. If you have so many drives it would make sense and it only "wastes" 4 TB. You will probably need a Raid card since I don't know any (consumer) Mainboard that supports 11 Sata drives.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - kwanbis - 2014-06-01

Thanks guys for replying.

About the server, I don't believe that my specific requirements call for a separate unit, and since I'm already way over budget, I would try to avoid adding more cost.

About RAID 5, I'm not that confident about it. I have heard many stories of one hard drive dying and while rebuilding the raid all goes caput. That said, it might be an option.

Anyway, this is what I have researched so far:

MOTHERBOARD:

ASRock Z77 Extreme4: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157293
ASUS P8Z77-V: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131820
ASUS P8Z77-V PRO: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131819
AS Rock PRO4-M Link: http://amzn.com/B007RQ0MDA

If I undestand correctly, any of those three support 4xSATA 3GB/s and 4xSATA 6GB/s, for a total of 8. I'm correct? Any other recommendations?

SATA/RAID EXPANSION CARD:
Since the motherboards support 8 SATA hard drives, I would only need 3 more, maybe 4. So I choose this three:

Rosewill RC-230 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132046
HighPoint Rocket 640L http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115114
Addonics ADSA4R5 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816318009

Any comments and/or recommendations?

CASE:
Rosewill Gaming ATX Full Tower Computer Case THOR V2 Black http://amzn.com/B0058P5S9A

PSU:

LEPA MaxBron B800-MB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817494017
XFX Core Edition PRO850W (P1-850S-NLB9) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817207011
LEPA MaxBron B1000-MB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817494018
CORSAIR HX Series HX750 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139010
NZXT HALE90 V2 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817116030

So, are these any good? any others better/cheaper I can get? These are are fairly expensive, 110~130 dollars, and I was hopping I can get something cheaper with good enough quality that would serve my purpose. Maybe using some molex to sata adapters?

Also, I was told that the motherboards should "supports staggered sata drive startup, which prevents an overload when all 10 drives start at once".
How can I research that? What happens if they do not?

Any other comments/recommendations about all this? THANKS!

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - _Andy_ - 2014-06-01

Hello

First i would suggest a real hardware RAID controller. All on board controllers are software raids. Believe me. So use an external SATA or SAS controller.
I recommend to use SAS instead of SATA and RAID 5 or RAID 6. SAS is compatible to SATA. You can use the same SATA drives. The big advantage is the possibility to enhance the count of drives. You can daisy chain with some very cheap SAS expander up to 128 drives at one controler.
SAS is mainly used in enterprise environments and very stable instead of SATA which is for private use.

If you like have a look at my setup http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=172073

If you start a HD the initial current to power up is much higher. So if you start 10 drives at once the initial current is very high. If your power supply is not capable to drive that load the voltage shrinks and maybe the system is in an unwanted condition and the mainboard shuts down or some drives can't start correctly. If you use a RAID and some drives fail during startup a RAID degradation could occur.
Staggered spin up and a stable power supply is the solution. It's better to use a good stable 750VA PSU than a cheap 1000VA PSU.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - kwanbis - 2014-06-01

(2014-06-01, 22:13)_Andy_ Wrote: First i would suggest a real hardware RAID controller. All on board controllers are software raids. Believe me. So use an external SATA or SAS controller. I recommend to use SAS instead of SATA and RAID 5 or RAID 6. SAS is compatible to SATA. You can use the same SATA drives. The big advantage is the possibility to enhance the count of drives. You can daisy chain with some very cheap SAS expander up to 128 drives at one controler. SAS is mainly used in enterprise environments and very stable instead of SATA which is for private use.

YOU HAVE A WONDERFUL SETUP! Why RAID 6? I actually have 40 TB on 2 towers (20 TB each), and I want to start a 40TB tower, and use the 2 old ones like sort of a RAID 1 manual mirror.

I read your link but I don't quite follow it. Can you recommend an external SAS or SATA controller that I can use to connect 10 4TB hard drives?

(2014-06-01, 22:13)_Andy_ Wrote: If you start a HD the initial current to power up is much higher. So if you start 10 drives at once the initial current is very high. If your power supply is not capable to drive that load the voltage shrinks and maybe the system is in an unwanted condition and the mainboard shuts down or some drives can't start correctly. If you use a RAID and some drives fail during startup a RAID degradation could occur. Staggered spin up and a stable power supply is the solution. It's better to use a good stable 750VA PSU than a cheap 1000VA PSU.

I was told about Staggered spin up. The 4TB WD hard drives draw 4.5w while on read/write. Lets assume 10w at spin up. That would be 100w. Lets make it even 200w. Lets say the mother + miro + ram + additional cards is another 200w. A 650w PSU should handle it perfectly, or I'm missing something?

THANKS FOR TAKING YOUR TIME TO REPLY.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - MrCrispy - 2014-06-01

I'd advice against hardware RAID, whether its a true hw card or the one offered by most addin/motherboard chipsets. RIAD simply has too many downsides in terms of hw dependency, cost, inflexibility etc. RAID was designed for high availability, that is never a requirement for a home media server.

If you want to use RAID for data safety, there are a number of software alternatives such as FlexRaid, SnapRaid, unRaid, even ZFS (for more technically inclined) that serve that purpose better. They are much easier (with exception of ZFS) to setup, maintain, expand etc.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - kwanbis - 2014-06-02

(2014-06-01, 23:47)MrCrispy Wrote: I'd advice against hardware RAID, whether its a true hw card or the one offered by most addin/motherboard chipsets. RIAD simply has too many downsides in terms of hw dependency, cost, inflexibility etc. RAID was designed for high availability, that is never a requirement for a home media server.

I actually would be "merging" the hard drives, like JBOD, I believe I can do that with Windows 7 virtual disks. I would investigated FlexRaid, SnapRaid, and unRAID, but ideally something that runs under Windows.

(2014-06-01, 23:47)MrCrispy Wrote: If you want to use RAID for data safety, there are a number of software alternatives such as FlexRaid, SnapRaid, unRaid, even ZFS (for more technically inclined) that serve that purpose better. They are much easier (with exception of ZFS) to setup, maintain, expand etc.

To be honest I tend to agree with you, but I find the proposal from Andy very interesting, so I'm open to different options. So far, because of costs, my option is sofware raid.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - MrCrispy - 2014-06-02

(2014-06-02, 00:13)kwanbis Wrote:
(2014-06-01, 23:47)MrCrispy Wrote: I'd advice against hardware RAID, whether its a true hw card or the one offered by most addin/motherboard chipsets. RIAD simply has too many downsides in terms of hw dependency, cost, inflexibility etc. RAID was designed for high availability, that is never a requirement for a home media server.
I actually would be "merging" the hard drives, like JBOD, I believe I can do that with Windows 7 virtual disks. I would investigated FlexRaid, SnapRaid, and unRAID, but ideally something that runs under Windows.

(2014-06-01, 23:47)MrCrispy Wrote: If you want to use RAID for data safety, there are a number of software alternatives such as FlexRaid, SnapRaid, unRaid, even ZFS (for more technically inclined) that serve that purpose better. They are much easier (with exception of ZFS) to setup, maintain, expand etc.
To be honest I tend to agree with you, but I find the proposal from Andy very interesting, so I'm open to different options. So far, because of costs, my option is sofware raid.

Please never never never do JBOD !!!! I can't urge this strongly enough. When one of the disks fails, and its a matter of when and not if, you'll lose the data on all of them!! And it offers no benefits anyway other than combining them all. Windows can do that natively with 'Dynamic disks'.

Look into FlexRaid. It runs under Windows, its free to try and much cheaper than a hardware Raid setup. I have a big fileserver build planned, probably not as big as yours though. I already have hardware for it purchased, it was a old server bought from ebay. I plan to run Windows with Flexraid on it, and would help you out more if my build was done.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - kwanbis - 2014-06-02

(2014-06-02, 00:32)MrCrispy Wrote: Please never never never do JBOD !!!! I can't urge this strongly enough. When one of the disks fails, and its a matter of when and not if, you'll lose the data on all of them!! And it offers no benefits anyway other than combining them all. Windows can do that natively with 'Dynamic disks'.

So you are saying to use RAID 0 instead? I don't understand if you mean that Dynamic disks support RAID 0 or not.

(2014-06-02, 00:32)MrCrispy Wrote: Look into FlexRaid. It runs under Windows, its free to try and much cheaper than a hardware Raid setup. I have a big fileserver build planned, probably not as big as yours though. I already have hardware for it purchased, it was a old server bought from ebay. I plan to run Windows with Flexraid on it, and would help you out more if my build was done.

I would take a look at flexraid, thanks for that.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - MrCrispy - 2014-06-02

No I'm not suggesting RAID 0, you can think of JBOD as RAID 0 except it works with disks of any size. The dangers are still there.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - kwanbis - 2014-06-02

(2014-06-02, 00:45)MrCrispy Wrote: No I'm not suggesting RAID 0, you can think of JBOD as RAID 0 except it works with disks of any size. The dangers are still there.

So you said to use FlexRaid for RAID0 ? I don't understand what is the difference. If 1 HDD in raid 0 dies, it is the same as if it dies in JBOD, or I'm wrong?

So far, this is what I think I would get, to run it with FlexRaid.

MOTHER: ASRock Fatal1ty Z87 Professional $157 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157377&cm_re=ASRock_Fatal1ty_Z87_Professional-_-13-157-377-_-Product
CASE: Rosewill Gaming ATX Full Tower Computer Case THOR V2 Black $110 http://amzn.com/B0058P5S9A
PSU: XFX PRO650W Core Edition 80+ Bronze $84 http://amzn.com/B0045L5LGI

Are all parts good ones? would they fit my requirements? I'm missing anything? THANKS!

EDIT: FlexRaid costs 99 dollars, it is not free. O I'm wrong?

EDIT2: The Fatal1ty is LGA 1150, not 1155, so I would need to choose motherboard. So far, I have:

ASRock PRO4-M: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z77%20Pro4-M/?cat=Specifications
ASRock Z77 Extreme4: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z77%20Extreme4/?cat=Specifications
ASUS P8Z77-V: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P8Z77V/
ASUS P8Z77-V PRO: https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P8Z77V_PRO/

Which one should I choose?

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - _Andy_ - 2014-06-02

If you need data safety i always recommended hardware raid. SAS because of the enterprise usage. The drivers and hardware are much better than for SATA controllers. Because of the mainly usage it's obvious why. I'm working as a system administrator and if you need safety and stable data systems use SAS hardware RAID.
The disadvantage is the price. You have to initially pay more money. That's true.

If it's ok to loose data if a hard drive fails you can use SATA controllers. Software RAIDs are mostly working but in my experience i don't trust the systems. My friend lost his complete RAID of his Buffalo NAS. And these NAS systems are always software RAIDs.
After a HD failure he wasn't able to rebuild the RAID. He bought a new HD but it wasn't working.

SAS is easy to enhance. A expander card from HP cost about 130$. With the expander you can connect 24 more drives and mix as RAID or NON RAID. Another HP expander and 24 more drives :-) As you like.

File systems like ZFS are working too but you should have Linux knowledge. In daily usage you can do most things from a GUI but if something went wrong it's sometimes better to use the command line.
If the system is fine and working all is good. But if the system fails and something is wrong, i prefer enterprise solutions.
I can speak from my 11 years of experience only.

But as often it's a matter of price.

A good 650VA PSU should handle fine. With my setup (24 drives but staggered spinup) i use a 750VA PSU. During the first 5 seconds after starting the system, i have a load of 580VA. If all drives are powered up (takes about 2 minutes) the load is 380VA.
Your chosen PSU should work. I don't like the power efficiency much but from the power aspect it works.

RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - MrCrispy - 2014-06-02

Hi kwanbis, you can read about RAID levels on Wikipedia. FlexRaid isn't RAID0, it implements it's own system for storing recovery information.

Andy's suggestions are great for higher budgets, bujt much more suited for the enterprise. You don't need that level for the home. And you want to be able to expand storage needs without having to buy more cards.

Re: RE: 40 TB HTPC Monster: What components to buy? - Milhouse - 2014-06-02

(2014-06-02, 02:01)_Andy_ Wrote: If you need data safety i always recommended hardware raid. SAS because of the enterprise usage. The drivers and hardware are much better than for SATA controllers.

What happens in the years to come when your hardware controller suddenly dies and is no longer available - do you really want to trawl fleabay in the hope the exact same controller, the only one that may be able to make any sense of the data on your disks, is available and at a reasonable price?

Honestly, nobody recommends hardware RAID controllers anymore and with very good reason.

Nowadays the recommendation for RAID is to use a dumb SATA/SAS HBA controller and some form of software RAID on top. My preference being ZFS, which isn't actually that hard to use, and is a gold-plated enterprise-level RAID solution for use with dumb controllers, yet freely available (on Unix and, more recently, Linux).

In fact, generally speaking, the "dumber" the controller the better - I myself use an LSI 9211-8i with the Integrated RAID (IR) firmware replaced by "dumb" Initiator Target (IT) firmware.

With software RAID, in the event of controller failure, any other dumb HBA controller (different make, firmware level, etc.) can be used as a replacement - you can even read your disks in a regular PC motherboard port if you need to.

Hardware RAID controllers as a recommended solution died out years ago, and good riddance. Do yourself a favour and stop recommending them.