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+---- Thread: Dolby atmos (/showthread.php?tid=204687)
RE: Dolby atmos - Warner306 - 2015-06-19
What would be the point of adding Atmos support by adding an extension to the filename? This is a hack not a solution to the problem. When support for flagging at the source is possible, then such a change would make sense.
Based on the reviews I've read, object-oriented surround sound is here to stay. Is not going the way of 3D. I've heard from several sources, and it does work and it does work well -- even without placing speakers in the ceiling.
So the real problem is this debate has raged for several pages but has failed to stay on topic. If not available from the source stream, then it shouldn't be added. A filename hack is not very useful to the majority of users.
RE: Dolby atmos - C.Taylor - 2015-06-20
(2015-06-19, 23:28)Warner306 Wrote: What would be the point of adding Atmos support by adding an extension to the filename? This is a hack not a solution to the problem. When support for flagging at the source is possible, then such a change would make sense.
Based on the reviews I've read, object-oriented surround sound is here to stay. Is not going the way of 3D. I've heard from several sources, and it does work and it does work well -- even without placing speakers in the ceiling.
So the real problem is this debate has raged for several pages but has failed to stay on topic. If not available from the source stream, then it shouldn't be added. A filename hack is not very useful to the majority of users.
You want to know why people would like to identify their Atmos files as such but then state it's here to stay and useful? Why do people care to identify their sources as Blu-ray or DVD? Or signify things as 3D? How are those hack flags helpful to the majority of users? Why have any media flags at all
A filename "hack" has been used multiple times by the devs to resolve issues they can't through "proper" means. How long will the majority of users wait until Blu-ray can be pulled from the stream? Or 3D information? Certainly all of those things should eventually be possible in ffmpeg, no? I mean it's already possible to note MVC in a MKV yet Kodi won't show 3D flags for those files as a source by default.
What if it NEVER becomes possible to pull Atmos, Auro3D or dtsX through ffmpeg?
The only problem with the debate is there is a new (and more coming) audio format that could be flagged as such in Kodi but the devs don't feel any need to make it possible for everyone by default, even if that default is a "hack" which would take one of these pros a few minutes to code into the only skin the devs support. Oh well, I asked for the masses and was shunned for it. Good day.
RE: Dolby atmos - Warner306 - 2015-06-20
I am not disagreeing that your flagging approach might be useful, but something more permanent would make more sense. I'm sure they would add this when it becomes available. As stated, ffmeg doesn't currently offer this option, and not many people will want to manually flag audio codecs in filenames.
RE: Dolby atmos - C.Taylor - 2015-06-20
(2015-06-20, 02:18)Warner306 Wrote: I am not disagreeing that your flagging approach might be useful, but something more permanent would make more sense. I'm sure they would add this when it becomes available. As stated, ffmeg doesn't currently offer this option, and not many people will want to manually flag audio codecs in filenames.
And what of those people who do want to? There's been plenty of discussion from users, not devs, talking about implementing Atmos in their home systems already. And for every person who creates an account and posts about it there are plenty more who lurk and just read.
It's 1 flag (3 eventually) not every audio codec possible. It works the same as current flags already built into Kodi for things that cannot be pulled from streams. Again, 5 minutes of work for someone who knows all about this and it's there for every single Kodi user to use if they so choose. It's been done before. And if a more permanent solution comes in the future that code can be deleted in seconds for a future Kodi release.
All the arguments just keep pointing back to the devs not caring and prefer spending their time typing about it online and insulting posters as selfish and greedy rather than typing the code into the Kodi base. Them adding this to Kodi as a default won't even affect my system as it would need to then be supported by the alternate skin I use which is something I did months ago. Greedy and selfish me!
RE: Dolby atmos - un1versal - 2015-06-20
Things dont just happen overnight, Im sure in time it will be properly supported, but this has to come from ffmpeg no? Why does it have to be automatically devs dont care? Have you badgered Ffmepg devs? Clearly not.
There's tons of graphics that I would like to see supported by default but people are very resistant to changing things and Ive been trying for years XBMC/Kodi side finally I resigned to the fact it wont ever happen and thus things go sideways into other projects. Im sure this hack will be used by a skin mod sooner rather than later and that's already many people using such things.
All and all this is somewhat blowing things out of proportion, whining to the wrong people about something it has to be supported somewhere else first and when that happens, I already have a finger on the trigger to submit the PR to suggest adding the flag to default skin. I wouldn't be surprised to see this in by v16 alpha builds provided ffmpeg get their fingers out of their arses.
RE: Dolby atmos - nickr - 2015-06-20
I am not sure why ffmpeg would be interested in doing any more. You can pass atmos through already, and it makes no sense to decode it. So there is probably no need to identify it.
RE: Dolby atmos - C.Taylor - 2015-06-20
(2015-06-20, 08:08)nickr Wrote: I am not sure why ffmpeg would be interested in doing any more. You can pass atmos through already, and it makes no sense to decode it. So there is probably no need to identify it.
Which leads back to my original question.
It can't/won't be identified in the stream. It requires a "hack" to add a flag that will signify Atmos enabled media for those who take the time to do the work. The same sort of users who take the time to add Blu-ray etc flags already. It's not something overtly difficult to do for someone skilled on the dev team since I was able to figure it out with some help from others here. And it was never asked, by me, for selfish and greedy reasons.
Every dev posting here to blast me and my question show that they'd rather have silly internet arguments than fire off a few PM's to one another and get the base code updated. Every argument against doing it has been countered for the good of the masses, yet every time the attitude coming forth is a "we'd rather tell you no and make up stupid reasons why than actually help every Kodi user out and blame you for being so selfish" one.
The "hack" has been posted, by me, to be shared with everyone. That was the first challenge a Team Kodi member slung at me. But that's not good enough. It's up to other people (Team ffmpeg) to do something first. And not once has anyone apologized for the baseless insulting by a Team Kodi member of a novice user asking a question of them.
To all those regular non-coding users out there reading who'd like to see their Atmos media flagged as such by default and so skinners have a base to implement it into their skins, I once again apologize for getting your answer of an emphatic NO from the dev team. If you can figure out the code I posted then great. It may not be perfect but it does the job on my system and looks great when showing off to guests visiting to experience Atmos in my home theater.
RE: Dolby atmos - fritsch - 2015-06-20
I don't like your demanding tone and I don't like your patch and I won't push / support that patch.
-> Thank you very much for posting it.
There are more formats arround ffmpeg does not identify in detail and everybody that has such files, might want to have the very same workaround, with the very same right as your demand for an atmos icon. You clearly see that this will never scale and is no the way of doing it.
I am happy that you have solved your personal issue and reached your primary goal: Showing your ripped blurays with an atmos icons to your friends.
Atmos icons for the masses will solve itself after ffmpeg can identify those.
RE: Dolby atmos - Ned Scott - 2015-06-20
(2015-06-19, 21:32)C.Taylor Wrote: Your negative opinion on Atmos doesn't make my argument any less relevant.
Completely correct.
Quote:Who claimed Blu-ray and DVD tags are to be used for resolution? Not I. They are tags that use naming convention to indicate something that can't be pulled from the stream. And Atmos is an audio source anyways.
Then I misunderstood your comment. My apologies. However, Atmos is not a "source".
Quote:So 3D tags are pulled from the stream of a MVC MKV or Blu-ray ISO? Oh wait.
Isn't that a moot point since Kodi doesn't playback 3D MVC? You'd have a point if it was a format we supported, but it's not. Once (if?) support for MVC is added then I would expect a good faith effort to extract the 3D information from the stream details, if possible.
Quote:And 3D is just as much "bullshit", as you put it, to sell people new TV's with expensive active glasses, yet the dev team felt inclined to show flagging support for it.
I'm not a fan of 3D either. If anything, 3D annoys me much more than any of the audio format purists.
Quote:Bottom line is the devs don't care. And they sure are a touchy bunch when asked if they are going to help out those who enjoy using Kodi but don't have the knowledge or time to figure it out themselves. They'd just rather blame someone for asking and hurl around baseless insults with impunity.
No, people are annoyed with the attitude you have. You seem to think that it would be easy for us to add this because you were able to figure out the skin changes to do this based on file name. However...
- This is a skin-specific thing. It wouldn't be universal, so it would only be for Confluence.
- File naming conventions are not taken lightly. Something that seems harmless still needs to be checked to see if it might interfere with other regex patterns that Kodi looks for. Even if it's all safe, adding to naming conventions is something we try to avoid whenever possible because such things tend to stick around for years and years.
- It might be an easy adjustment to Confluence, but asking users to change all of their files is an added burden on them, which creates a support burden for us. It's something that then has to be documented and taught to users.
No earth shattering reason, sure, but still enough to keep it off someones "radar", as you put it. Instead, I imagine our devs are more interested in attempting a more reliable way to trigger such a flag. However, at this point in the discussion no one was opposed to adding the name-based flag, but you seemed to be offended that we didn't make the changes ourselves.
It doesn't matter how easy it is for us if we are not interested in that method. We are volunteers. If every tiny request like that was taken up by us personally, then that would add up to enough man hours to make working on Kodi a pain in the ass and not enjoyable. You are the one who wants this feature, then you are the one who should take the time to figure out how to queue up a pull request. You said you had no time to learn, but you expected Team Kodi members to take their free time adding something the don't want. It doesn't matter if it would only take two minutes, that's just insulting.
I'm not a dev. I look at code and I go cross-eyed. Yet, when I wanted to make changes that were similar to the ones you want, I made a good faith effort to learn how to do this on github. I was the one asking for a change to make my usage easier, because it was something I was interested in, so I at least tried. Even if someone else had the time to do it themselves, it's really entitled to expect them to do it when they're not the one who is interested in the addition.
Despite all of that, fritsch, the only dev who's responded to this request, had been willing to add this in. He defended the idea to martijn, and also said it was better than nothing. Yet you still act like a dick about this, why? Why do you feel so wronged, just because some of us felt slightly insulted at how entitled you were acting? Now you've even lost his support.
The maor you know.... *cue song*
RE: Dolby atmos - un1versal - 2015-06-20
I cant read any devs here doing what you say they did, it was other users only pointed out that this is a hack and would be better properly supported, and you just having a fit because its not going how you expected it to go. Your replies are just awful to read.
Again its ffmpeg which need to support identifying the extension properly given how new this is (only a few months supported in ffmpeg) and the opensource nature anyone at any time with the right skill will do it sooner or later.
Its not exactly the same thing as the bluray/dvd/hd-dvd/vhs/tv streamdetails flags this, for one it would look odd to have one streamdetail flag ID by ffmpeg in one end as True-HD flag then have the #nr of channels, then a media source type then finally a audio substream type ID, not only the whole lot would need adjusting skin side it would look odd otherwise imo.
As a user (since Im not a dev) I feel you rather rant and Ive no interest in this sort of discussion you dragging this into, so with that, I will leave this thread with the image I propose for when this is properly supported or for you and anyone else who wants to use this hack and this image.
My theme already has that built in. Enjoy now.
RE: Dolby atmos - C.Taylor - 2015-06-20
(2015-06-20, 08:54)uNiversal Wrote: I cant read any devs here doing what you say they did, it was other users only pointed out that this is a hack and would be better properly supported, and you just having a fit because its not going how you expected it to go. Your replies are just awful to read.
So fristch, who responded to me with malice intent and then made baseless and insulting accusations at me for asking a question and then a follow-up is not a dev?
I guess I am wrong to understand the small text under a user name somehow signifies some sort of importance beyond that of general users.
You guys are correct though, tone and making demands is not the best way to get things done. Unfortunate you felt my 2 posts warranted demanding I write the code and doing so in a childish manner.
(2015-06-18, 00:09)C.Taylor Wrote: Has native support for Atmos flags been built into Kodi yet?
How about Auro3D and dtsX?
(2015-06-18, 00:10)Martijn Wrote: No
(2015-06-18, 00:11)C.Taylor Wrote:(2015-06-18, 00:10)Martijn Wrote: No
That's disappointing. Any reason as to why?
(2015-06-18, 16:26)fritsch Wrote: You did not PR it ... that's the reason.
RE: Dolby atmos - C.Taylor - 2015-06-20
(2015-06-20, 08:53)Ned Scott Wrote: Then I misunderstood your comment. My apologies. However, Atmos is not a "source".
This is an argument of semantics. Atmos is the source audio. Blu-ray is the disc source the file came from. Regardless at the end of the day they are both flags that can't be pulled from the stream directly.
(2015-06-20, 08:53)Ned Scott Wrote: Isn't that a moot point since Kodi doesn't playback 3D MVC? You'd have a point if it was a format we supported, but it's not. Once (if?) support for MVC is added then I would expect a good faith effort to extract the 3D information from the stream details, if possible
The point might be moot is 3D tags based on filename "hacks" didn't exist prior to XBMC supporting 3D playback of any kind. Back in Frodo I could use the "hack" to identify 3D files but I couldn't play any of them in actual 3D.
(2015-06-20, 08:53)Ned Scott Wrote: No, people are annoyed with the attitude you have. You seem to think that it would be easy for us to add this because you were able to figure out the skin changes to do this based on file name. However...
See my previous post. The "attitude" came directly from 2 dev team members. 1 who went on to insult me for being selfish and greedy and makes no apology for it.
If that's how dev team members chose to respond to users making inquiries then why would any members bother contributing at all?
RE: Dolby atmos - Warner306 - 2015-06-20
Ok C. Taylor, I'm cutting you off. I have no idea why you are intent on starting fights on this forum. If it is frustration at the world...it would be energy best used elsewhere. The Team Kodi members don't need to grapple with someone raising heck for fun.
Meet banned member Batiatus, who recently started multi-thread fights in the Aeon Nox wing before bowing-out for the second time. For confirmation of his true identity, check his reputation: http://forum.kodi.tv/reputation.php?uid=248521.
Many of the replies to your comments are lengthy and were written with honesty. You should go back to Aeon Nox where your antics are already known.
P.S. You mentioned in your original profile you enjoy hosting wild orgies. This sounds like much more fun than posting in the Kodi forums.
RE: Dolby atmos - fritsch - 2015-06-20
Quote:So fristch, who responded to me with malice intent and then made baseless and insulting accusations at me for asking a question and then a follow-up is not a dev?
I have read that sentence and I am thankful for the accusations on your part. I am done with that discussion and you are now another famous member on my ignore list.
RE: Dolby atmos - un1versal - 2015-06-20
(2015-06-20, 09:26)C.Taylor Wrote:(2015-06-20, 08:54)uNiversal Wrote: I cant read any devs here doing what you say they did, it was other users only pointed out that this is a hack and would be better properly supported, and you just having a fit because its not going how you expected it to go. Your replies are just awful to read.
So fristch, who responded to me with malice intent and then made baseless and insulting accusations at me for asking a question and then a follow-up is not a dev?
I guess I am wrong to understand the small text under a user name somehow signifies some sort of importance beyond that of general users.
You guys are correct though, tone and making demands is not the best way to get things done. Unfortunate you felt my 2 posts warranted demanding I write the code and doing so in a childish manner.
I wasn't going to reply except I feel you are stepping on my toes.
You assume malice, have you considered many here like myself, fritsch and othesr are NOT native English speakers? Have you considered you may be misinterpreting and assuming malice where none was intended?
IMHO thats the first thing one should assume when reading ANYTHING in any internet related conversation, not the second or third or not even enter your mind which clearly did not in yours. BTW if saying this is offensive to you think again.
What I see is you already putting words into my mouth, in NONE of my posts here did I call you childish, I merely said you were ranting and being unreasonable (that's not childish behaviour). But for the record now Ill state it outright, you are being obtuse on purpose and being argumentative with very little cause. Again if you take any offense of this you are unable to have any valid discussions with anyone without loosing your plot.
1) You cant demand anyone do anything (this is open source) if you cant do it yourself then you need to be patient (you are not) and you cant say people arent doing anything, Ive done something maybe others are doing it also. AGAIN impatient attitude.
2) This is not Kodi responsibility its ffmpeg,
3) You will not get an apology from me and I suspect from anyone else (I wont speak for them), Ive done nothing to apologise for and you aren't exactly apologising yourself for this awful slew of utter drivel.
And now Ill go get my popcorn bucket and wait for party time or thread closure
@Warner306 that batiatus tried it with me on the WIMM thread, after 3 posts it was put quickly to bed. Good riddens.