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RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - digriz60 - 2015-09-04

Thanks for all your help Warner306. I've gone back and stepped through your setup suggestions and the Jriver article. Seems I do have a fickle rig, so I have to start at a minimum baseline and work my way up from there. I definitely get freezeups and blackscreens upon starting a video, so I have to make a chart of settings and step through them to see my results. Honestly, I may have had unrealistic expectations from my SD material, there's only so much that can be done, especially viewing on a 55" screen, which will amplify everything. Reclock was giving me a hassle about not supporting my video drivers (I run the latest Nvidia drivers) so it seems like I've got a fair amount of tweaking to do this weekend.

I did previously install LAV separate from DSPlayer, but I assume that won't affect anything since I'm directing it to use internal filters. Or would they conflict? Should I uninstall any filter I am not using, like Haali and ffdshow? When I click o during playback, I've confirmed DSplayer is only using the internal filters and Reclock for audio.

I have noticed that my settings sometimes seem to revert in the filters, so maybe uninstalling the other ones would be a good idea...


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Doom10 - 2015-09-07

(2015-03-27, 08:29)Warner306 Wrote: RGB Output Levels

Proper RGB output levels are necessary when passing from PC to TV color spaces. When sending video via HDMI to a TV, in most cases, color spaces are set as follows:

(LAV Video) All Output Formats -> (madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Limited Range RGB 16-235 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235

madVR expands the source 16-235 signal to full range RGB leaving the conversion back to 16-235 to the graphics card.

Why should we do double conversion in films? What is the logic behind it if our TV does 0-255?

If i am not wrong with that configuration:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 -> 16-235 (two conversions)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 -> 16-235 (one conversion)

Shouldn't it better?

(LAV Video) All Output Formats -> (madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) RGB (0-255) -> (TV) Output as RGB 0-255

Which means:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 (one conversion)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 (none conversion)

Am i wrong?


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Warner306 - 2015-09-07

(2015-09-07, 15:59)Doom10 Wrote:
(2015-03-27, 08:29)Warner306 Wrote: RGB Output Levels

Proper RGB output levels are necessary when passing from PC to TV color spaces. When sending video via HDMI to a TV, in most cases, color spaces are set as follows:

(LAV Video) All Output Formats -> (madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Limited Range RGB 16-235 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235

madVR expands the source 16-235 signal to full range RGB leaving the conversion back to 16-235 to the graphics card.

Why should we do double conversion in films? What is the logic behind it if our TV does 0-255?

If i am not wrong with that configuration:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 -> 16-235 (two conversions)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 -> 16-235 (one conversion)

Shouldn't it better?

(LAV Video) All Output Formats -> (madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) RGB (0-255) -> (TV) Output as RGB 0-255

Which means:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 (one conversion)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 (none conversion)

Am i wrong?

Most TVs won't do RGB 0-255, so that option isn't mentioned. If your TV does, then go right ahead.


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Doom10 - 2015-09-07

(2015-09-07, 22:17)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-09-07, 15:59)Doom10 Wrote:
(2015-03-27, 08:29)Warner306 Wrote: RGB Output Levels

Proper RGB output levels are necessary when passing from PC to TV color spaces. When sending video via HDMI to a TV, in most cases, color spaces are set as follows:

(LAV Video) All Output Formats -> (madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Limited Range RGB 16-235 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235

madVR expands the source 16-235 signal to full range RGB leaving the conversion back to 16-235 to the graphics card.

Why should we do double conversion in films? What is the logic behind it if our TV does 0-255?

If i am not wrong with that configuration:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 -> 16-235 (two conversions)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 -> 16-235 (one conversion)

Shouldn't it better?

(LAV Video) All Output Formats -> (madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) RGB (0-255) -> (TV) Output as RGB 0-255

Which means:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 (one conversion)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 (none conversion)

Am i wrong?

Most TVs won't do RGB 0-255, so that option isn't mentioned. If your TV does, then go right ahead.

I think most TVs nowdays do 0-255. Samsung, LG, etc. call it different (high, normal, low, etc ... black levels).

I think it is a mistake if your guide doesn't mention the best configuration for htpc. New users with TV that does 0-255 will configure wrong their GPU output.


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Warner306 - 2015-09-08

(2015-09-07, 23:56)Doom10 Wrote:
(2015-09-07, 22:17)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-09-07, 15:59)Doom10 Wrote: Why should we do double conversion in films? What is the logic behind it if our TV does 0-255?

If i am not wrong with that configuration:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 -> 16-235 (two conversions)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 -> 16-235 (one conversion)

Shouldn't it better?

(LAV Video) All Output Formats -> (madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) RGB (0-255) -> (TV) Output as RGB 0-255

Which means:

- films: 16-235 -> 0-255 (one conversion)
- games, desktop, etc: 0-255 (none conversion)

Am i wrong?

Most TVs won't do RGB 0-255, so that option isn't mentioned. If your TV does, then go right ahead.

I think most TVs nowdays do 0-255. Samsung, LG, etc. call it different (high, normal, low, etc ... black levels).

I think it is a mistake if your guide doesn't mention the best configuration for htpc. New users with TV that does 0-255 will configure wrong their GPU output.

No, it is definitely not a mistake. Using your TV's full range option is not recommended:

Q: My TV supports Full mode, shouldn’t I use this?

A: No. TVs support Full to make them easier to calibrate. Most TVs will not display a black level below 16 because video content should never have it. By letting you see Black 15 or 14, it can make it easier to calibrate the display and get the black level correct. However, you really should not use this as your main setting as most displays are not designed to display levels below 16, and often introduce color tints when doing white levels past 240 or so. Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher. Contrast Ratio is the thing your eye notices most, and so it will produce a more pleasing image.


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Doom10 - 2015-09-08

(2015-09-08, 00:03)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-09-07, 23:56)Doom10 Wrote:
(2015-09-07, 22:17)Warner306 Wrote: Most TVs won't do RGB 0-255, so that option isn't mentioned. If your TV does, then go right ahead.

I think most TVs nowdays do 0-255. Samsung, LG, etc. call it different (high, normal, low, etc ... black levels).

I think it is a mistake if your guide doesn't mention the best configuration for htpc. New users with TV that does 0-255 will configure wrong their GPU output.

No, it is definitely not a mistake. Using your TV's full range option is not recommended:

Q: My TV supports Full mode, shouldn’t I use this?

A: No. TVs support Full to make them easier to calibrate. Most TVs will not display a black level below 16 because video content should never have it. By letting you see Black 15 or 14, it can make it easier to calibrate the display and get the black level correct. However, you really should not use this as your main setting as most displays are not designed to display levels below 16, and often introduce color tints when doing white levels past 240 or so. Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher. Contrast Ratio is the thing your eye notices most, and so it will produce a more pleasing image.

madshi, nevcariel, etc. recommend pc levels:

Quote:My recommendation is always to set configure your display so that it expects PC levels (full range). This has 2 important benefits: (1) Levels will be correct for everything, including games, photos, applications and video playback. (2) There should be no problem with image quality.

If your display can't do PC levels, or if you have good reasons for not using this solution, then you have 2 alternative solutions:

(a) Either set the GPU to limited range and madVR to PC levels. This means madVR will render to PC levels and the GPU will afterwards stretch the madVR output (and desktop, games, applications, photos etc) to limited range. Using this approach still has the benefit of having correct levels everywhere. But image quality might suffer because the GPU usually uses a rather bad stretching algorithm, which can introduce banding artifacts.

(b) Or set the GPU to fullrange and madVR to TV levels. This will result in good image quality (no artifacts) and correct levels for video playback. However, desktop, games, applications and photos will have wrong levels

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1635534&postcount=19433


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Warner306 - 2015-09-08

(2015-09-08, 00:24)Doom10 Wrote:
(2015-09-08, 00:03)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-09-07, 23:56)Doom10 Wrote: I think most TVs nowdays do 0-255. Samsung, LG, etc. call it different (high, normal, low, etc ... black levels).

I think it is a mistake if your guide doesn't mention the best configuration for htpc. New users with TV that does 0-255 will configure wrong their GPU output.

No, it is definitely not a mistake. Using your TV's full range option is not recommended:

Q: My TV supports Full mode, shouldn’t I use this?

A: No. TVs support Full to make them easier to calibrate. Most TVs will not display a black level below 16 because video content should never have it. By letting you see Black 15 or 14, it can make it easier to calibrate the display and get the black level correct. However, you really should not use this as your main setting as most displays are not designed to display levels below 16, and often introduce color tints when doing white levels past 240 or so. Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher. Contrast Ratio is the thing your eye notices most, and so it will produce a more pleasing image.

madshi, nevcariel, etc. recommend pc levels:

Quote:My recommendation is always to set configure your display so that it expects PC levels (full range). This has 2 important benefits: (1) Levels will be correct for everything, including games, photos, applications and video playback. (2) There should be no problem with image quality.

If your display can't do PC levels, or if you have good reasons for not using this solution, then you have 2 alternative solutions:

(a) Either set the GPU to limited range and madVR to PC levels. This means madVR will render to PC levels and the GPU will afterwards stretch the madVR output (and desktop, games, applications, photos etc) to limited range. Using this approach still has the benefit of having correct levels everywhere. But image quality might suffer because the GPU usually uses a rather bad stretching algorithm, which can introduce banding artifacts.

(b) Or set the GPU to fullrange and madVR to TV levels. This will result in good image quality (no artifacts) and correct levels for video playback. However, desktop, games, applications and photos will have wrong levels

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1635534&postcount=19433

Ok, that is understandable. But you still have to calibrate your TV for PC levels. All of the Brightness, Contrast, Color, etc. would be different in this mode. And I still believe that your TV won't give you the best image in this setting. But this is debatable.

This is a situation where I wouldn't just trust madshi. It would depend on the TV.


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Doom10 - 2015-09-08

(2015-09-08, 00:43)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-09-08, 00:24)Doom10 Wrote:
(2015-09-08, 00:03)Warner306 Wrote: No, it is definitely not a mistake. Using your TV's full range option is not recommended:

Q: My TV supports Full mode, shouldn’t I use this?

A: No. TVs support Full to make them easier to calibrate. Most TVs will not display a black level below 16 because video content should never have it. By letting you see Black 15 or 14, it can make it easier to calibrate the display and get the black level correct. However, you really should not use this as your main setting as most displays are not designed to display levels below 16, and often introduce color tints when doing white levels past 240 or so. Additionally, if you restrict yourself to levels 16-235 you wind up with a brighter image with a better contrast ratio, as you can turn up the contrast level higher. Contrast Ratio is the thing your eye notices most, and so it will produce a more pleasing image.

madshi, nevcariel, etc. recommend pc levels:

Quote:My recommendation is always to set configure your display so that it expects PC levels (full range). This has 2 important benefits: (1) Levels will be correct for everything, including games, photos, applications and video playback. (2) There should be no problem with image quality.

If your display can't do PC levels, or if you have good reasons for not using this solution, then you have 2 alternative solutions:

(a) Either set the GPU to limited range and madVR to PC levels. This means madVR will render to PC levels and the GPU will afterwards stretch the madVR output (and desktop, games, applications, photos etc) to limited range. Using this approach still has the benefit of having correct levels everywhere. But image quality might suffer because the GPU usually uses a rather bad stretching algorithm, which can introduce banding artifacts.

(b) Or set the GPU to fullrange and madVR to TV levels. This will result in good image quality (no artifacts) and correct levels for video playback. However, desktop, games, applications and photos will have wrong levels

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1635534&postcount=19433

Ok, that is understandable. But you still have to calibrate your TV for PC levels. All of the Brightness, Contrast, Color, etc. would be different in this mode. And I still believe that your TV won't give you the best image in this setting. But this is debatable.

This is a situation where I wouldn't just trust madshi. It would depend on the TV.

The double conversion is a fact, and even if GPU does apply dithering then films will have noise from madvr dithering plus noise from GPU dithering. And games, desktop, etc. noise from GPU.

Even the writter of jriver guide you refference recomends full range:

Quote:If your display supports 0-255, then setup is easy - set everything to 0-255 and you don't have to think about it.
If your display does not support 0-255, you probably should not output 0-255 from the video card (using madNvLevelsTweaker.exe) and will have to compromise.

The first option is to have everything set to 0-255, except for the video card output, so that on the output stage it is being converted to 16-235. This means that all content is kept at the same levels (desktop & video) but the conversion to 16-235 on output may introduce banding. If you are using your PC for more than just video playback, this is the setup you have to use.

However, if you are going to be using the computer exclusively for watching videos through madVR, you have a second option. What you can do is set the video card output to 0-255, and set madVR to 16-235.

This will avoid the potential banding from having the video card compress the output levels to 16-235. But it will make anything that is not video look terrible, as anything on the desktop will still be outputting 0-255, and all values above 235 and below 16 will be clipped. (very high contrast image with no shadow/highlight detail)

I would only suggest doing this if your are only using the PC for video playback, and are seeing banding from the video card outputting 16-235.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1620589&postcount=18062


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Warner306 - 2015-09-08

(2015-09-08, 01:16)Doom10 Wrote:
(2015-09-08, 00:43)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-09-08, 00:24)Doom10 Wrote: madshi, nevcariel, etc. recommend pc levels:


http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1635534&postcount=19433

Ok, that is understandable. But you still have to calibrate your TV for PC levels. All of the Brightness, Contrast, Color, etc. would be different in this mode. And I still believe that your TV won't give you the best image in this setting. But this is debatable.

This is a situation where I wouldn't just trust madshi. It would depend on the TV.

The double conversion is a fact, and even if GPU does apply dithering then films will have noise from madvr dithering plus noise from GPU dithering. And games, desktop, etc. noise from GPU.

Even the writter of jriver guide you refference recomends full range:

Quote:If your display supports 0-255, then setup is easy - set everything to 0-255 and you don't have to think about it.
If your display does not support 0-255, you probably should not output 0-255 from the video card (using madNvLevelsTweaker.exe) and will have to compromise.

The first option is to have everything set to 0-255, except for the video card output, so that on the output stage it is being converted to 16-235. This means that all content is kept at the same levels (desktop & video) but the conversion to 16-235 on output may introduce banding. If you are using your PC for more than just video playback, this is the setup you have to use.

However, if you are going to be using the computer exclusively for watching videos through madVR, you have a second option. What you can do is set the video card output to 0-255, and set madVR to 16-235.

This will avoid the potential banding from having the video card compress the output levels to 16-235. But it will make anything that is not video look terrible, as anything on the desktop will still be outputting 0-255, and all values above 235 and below 16 will be clipped. (very high contrast image with no shadow/highlight detail)

I would only suggest doing this if your are only using the PC for video playback, and are seeing banding from the video card outputting 16-235.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1620589&postcount=18062

Ok, I added a third color space choice to appease your request.

The JRiver guide recommends Option 1, which is what I use. I can't see any kind of banding or noise as a result of this choice and this is how most people use madVR. I think this is a case of being too particular when the result is not impaired in any way. I have never felt shorted using this method and I trust my TV was designed to show 16-235.

Also, only Option 2 retains the original 16-235 levels until it reaches the TV. The GPU will not convert it even if set to 0-255.

Option 3, requires the 16-235 input be expanded by madVR to 0-255. So Option 2 is the most pure. I know madshi has recommended Option 2 in a post I've read, but it messes up your computer if used for anything besides madVR.

To each his own...I don't think this choice is as critical as some others. For example, the choice of dithering method in madVR has the smallest impact on image quality. The noise threshold isn't all that different between the different options.

Also, the output bit depth can make this choice even more pointless. At 10-bits, dithering really isn't even needed and color range conversions become even more minimized.


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Doom10 - 2015-09-08

Jriver guide doesn't reccomend option 1:

Quote:Regardless of what your display accepts, whether it is 16–235 or 0–255, it should be left at 0–255 to avoid having the image appear “washed out”. Typically if you need to send 16–235 to a display, you will use the video card output to set that, not the video renderer.

It says that in the case you need to send limited range you should use that range in the GPU and not in the renderer. The reason is to avoid wrong levels in desktop, games, etc. if you can't use full range. I have quotted the author of the guide reccomends full range.

Madshi reccomends option 2 (madvr 16-235-> gpu 0-255 -> tv 16-235) if htpc is being only used for video playback and can't or wan't use full range. This option doesn't touch range and it is the only one that preserves whiter-than-white and blacker-than-black, two other ones loss them. But levels outside video playback will be wrong.

Option 1 madvr 0-255 -> gpu 16-235 -> tv 16-235 is useful for example if htpc is connected to an avr where other 16-235 devices are connected and the hdmi port in the tv is calibratted to that range.

In the end, there are 3 options and i didn't understand why one of them was not mentionned. The one that give correct levels and avoid double conversion and most people recomends in madvr thread of doom9 forum.

Anyway, i like your guide and it is the reason i did request to add that option.


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - XTrojan - 2015-09-17

Edit : removed


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - gotham_x - 2015-09-18

Hi.i follow with great interest the thread, reading the guide, Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR, with this I wanted to ask for some information

At some point I had to stop reading this guide, the reason for this, I can not see in Kodi DSPlayer screen (Basic Configuration – Kodi GUI)

Kodi Gui DSPlayer
Image

What should be done to load the Video Settings screen madVR by Kodi Gui?


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - Warner306 - 2015-09-18

(2015-09-18, 09:01)gotham_x Wrote: Hi.i follow with great interest the thread, reading the guide, Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR, with this I wanted to ask for some information

At some point I had to stop reading this guide, the reason for this, I can not see in Kodi DSPlayer screen (Basic Configuration – Kodi GUI)

Kodi Gui DSPlayer
Image

What should be done to load the Video Settings screen madVR by Kodi Gui?

Set DSPlayer settings to manage madVR with anything besides the GUI disabled. Then, that menu can be accessed during playback by choosing video settings from the player controls. So you first have to play a video to get to that menu.


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - gotham_x - 2015-09-18

Warner Excuse me, I'm running a video as a guide, open DSPlayer in Video Settings DSPlayer as screenschot I do not see a menu attached player controls, are broken.

Image


RE: HOW TO - Configure Kodi DSPlayer with LAV Filters, XySubFilter & madVR - gotham_x - 2015-09-18

I resolved, I was wrong in continuing to believe that it was a Video Settings menu in Video -> DSPlayer playing video.

Warner 360.

I take advantage of your experience, I have to change GTX-260 video card for my PC, a PC equipped with Intel I7 CPU i7-3820 @ 3.600Hz without Owerclock active and 16 GB of RAM.

As video card would oriented Brand Nvidia GTX-960 with encoding and decoding hardware HEVC / 4k or GTX 980.

Surely it would be better as calculation Headers GTX - 980 only supports encoded HEVC / 4K, does not support hardware decoding HEVC / 4k.

Given the quality of the two video cards I would like to take advantage Scaling Algoritms with NNEDI3.

I ask, she knows there are guides settings to make full upscaling algorithm Chroma NNEDI3 with GTX-960/980.

Thanks and sorry for my bad English.


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