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RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - fritsch - 2020-01-03

w3fdif half works okayish and looks quite well ... yeah, so much for that. Really great it's not - but what to expect with HDR 4k 60p on the other hand :-)  - The time when deinterlacing was mandatory is gone. For all those with interlaced rips, use the GPU to convert it away. Less space, better for archiving.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - noggin - 2020-01-04

(2020-01-03, 23:38)fritsch Wrote: w3fdif half works okayish and looks quite well ... yeah, so much for that. Really great it's not - but what to expect with HDR 4k 60p on the other hand :-)  - The time when deinterlacing was mandatory is gone. For all those with interlaced rips, use the GPU to convert it away. Less space, better for archiving.

I guess you live in a country with no interlaced Live TV...


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - fritsch - 2020-01-04

(2020-01-04, 00:54)noggin Wrote:
(2020-01-03, 23:38)fritsch Wrote: w3fdif half works okayish and looks quite well ... yeah, so much for that. Really great it's not - but what to expect with HDR 4k 60p on the other hand :-)  - The time when deinterlacing was mandatory is gone. For all those with interlaced rips, use the GPU to convert it away. Less space, better for archiving.

I guess you live in a country with no interlaced Live TV... 
Interlaced TV is dieing. Everything here either goes the 4K route or is transitioned to webservices like zattoo, waibu.tv, dazn, sky go etc. - in the new house I did not even care to install a new sattelite dish.
And if you really need it for the next 12 months, transcode it on the fly with vaapi hevc encoder.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - noggin - 2020-01-04

(2020-01-04, 10:04)fritsch Wrote:
(2020-01-04, 00:54)noggin Wrote:
(2020-01-03, 23:38)fritsch Wrote: w3fdif half works okayish and looks quite well ... yeah, so much for that. Really great it's not - but what to expect with HDR 4k 60p on the other hand :-)  - The time when deinterlacing was mandatory is gone. For all those with interlaced rips, use the GPU to convert it away. Less space, better for archiving.

I guess you live in a country with no interlaced Live TV...   
Interlaced TV is dieing. Everything here either goes the 4K route or is transitioned to webservices like zattoo, waibu.tv, dazn, sky go etc. - in the new house I did not even care to install a new sattelite dish.
And if you really need it for the next 12 months, transcode it on the fly with vaapi hevc encoder.  

Ah - here in the UK interlaced TV is still the dominant format used by the most watched platforms (DVB-T/T2 is still the most widespread platform for TV viewing here) Broadcaster OTT services, apart from the BBC's, are locked down to their own apps, and SD quality, but at 25p not 50p, so nowhere near the quality of the DVB sources. (All4, ITVHub are both 1024x576p25 for example, not p50)

BBC iPlayer has occasional 2160p25/50 HDR stuff (FA Cup Final, Wimbledon, Attenborough wildlife docs) but the bulk of it is still 720p50 HD and has a lot more compression artefacts compared to the quality of their 1080i25 broadcast streams (which if you are watching on a large UHD screen is an issue).

If you want to watch the 5 main channels here in quality, in Kodi, you need to have an interlaced solution. We transitioned to DVB-T2/S2 with h.264 using 1080i25 in the 00s (actually i25/p25 dynamically switched GOP by GOP on-the-fly by the statmuxed h.264 encoders on DVB-T2, S2 is permanent 1080i25). If we'd waited longer we could have gone 1080p50 with h.265 I guess (like Germany and Netherlands have for T2) - but that's by-the-by.

Interlaced distributed content (and in some case interlace native content) isn't going anywhere here for a good few years in the UK... Long term OTT stuff is hopefully going to transition from 576p25, 720p25 and 720p50 to 1080p50 and 2160p50 - but the DRM introduced is likely to be problematic for local recording (so you can't archive content on their OTT services to watch outside their catch-up windows) or for playback on Kodi platforms without the required DRM support. Sad

I don't argue that interlaced standards are EOL for new platforms, but the old platforms aren't going away that quickly.

In production terms it's interesting that most 720p50 broadcasters like SVT, NRK, DR etc. run 1080i25/1080p25 internally and deinterlace for transmission, as I believe is the case for most ARD and ZDF stuff in Germany for both 720p50 and 1080p50 platforms - at least chatting to ZDF engineers I was left with that impression recently. (Even though almost all gear can switch between 1080i and 720p in the production chain - 1080i25 and 1080p25 are still preferred)


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - fritsch - 2020-01-04

When my primary use-case was DVB-C LiveTV I used an intel solution with VAAPI and MCDI - done. Therefore I think my signature still makes a lot of sense :-)


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - noggin - 2020-01-04

(2020-01-04, 15:49)fritsch Wrote: When my primary use-case was DVB-C LiveTV I used an intel solution with VAAPI and MCDI - done. Therefore I think my signature still makes a lot of sense :-)

Yep - my use case is both Live and Recorded DVB-T2/S2 h.264 1080i25 TV and UHD HDR10/HLG stuff...  Before a UHD HDR TV appeared in my life I was happy with Chromeboxes (MCDI) and Raspberry Pi 3B+ (YADIF 2x in hardaware-ish)  I guess I could just use two boxes - but that's a faff...


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - antony23 - 2020-01-04

But hw deinterlacing of coreelec amlogic device is not a good alternative to sw yadif 2x?

Here in italy we have interlaced content too on dvb-t2. Next years switch to h265 could bring progressive only content... But we cannot say atm.

Same on sat. 1080i h264 atm.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - noggin - 2020-01-06

(2020-01-04, 20:11)antony23 Wrote: But hw deinterlacing of coreelec amlogic device is not a good alternative to sw yadif 2x?
AIUI AMLogic deinterlacing on modern chipsets is pretty OK. (From memory some chipsets had some quite aggressive edge enhancement and noise reduction enabled at one point, but I think this has been solved now.)
Quote:Here in italy we have interlaced content too on dvb-t2. Next years switch to h265 could bring progressive only content... But we cannot say atm.
Italy would be mad to run HEVC/h.265 with 1080i or 576i content. Unlike AVC/h.264 there are no real interlaced optimisations (like PAFF or MBAFF) in the HEVC/h.265 standard/toolkit (They didn't want to include interlace support at all but relented, adding it quite late to the standard). As a result HEVC/h2.265 only uses separate field encoding for interlaced (like early AVC/h.264 encoders) so the quality / bitrate improvements are far lower (as it effectively treats 1080i25 as 540p50 in encoding terms - which increases the visibility of encoder artefacts, requiring a higher bitrate than would be required otherwise. BTW I'm not saying it reduces 1080i25 to 540p50 - just that it encodes it as separate fields)

It's almost always better to do a high-quality deinterlace from 1080i25 to 1080p50 at the broadcaster's end and encode at 1080p50 for HEVC/h.265 (which is largely what is currently happening in Germany and the Netherlands where HEVC is being used on DVB-T2 already)  Germany removed 576i25 entirely from their HEVC standard (1080i25 remains but is unused in the wild), and instead added 540p50.

(The German DVB-T2 model is 540p50, 720p50, 1080p50 and 1080i25 - but the latter isn't used)
Quote:Same on sat. 1080i h264 atm.

Yep - I've not seen any major move to HEVC/h.265 on DVB-S2 services yet - only DVB-T2. (I suspect because the STB manufacturers for DVB-T2 have a reference standard they need to meet in each country, in order to get a national licensing logo - like Freeview HD in the UK - which requires meeting the Digital UK 'D Book' reference standard)  On S2 in Europe I only see 576i25, 720p50, 1080i25 and 2160p50 (With occasionally 4320p50 and 2160p100 tests)


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - jaxter - 2020-01-19

Hi all i think my requirements are pretty simple my mate has a sony 4k projector, and i'd previously set up an tanix tx92 for him and myself. After installing fandangos kodi hdr buld on my ryzen apu equipped pc the picture looked much better on my benq w2700 projector, i put this down to now correct MaxCLL/FALL HDR metadata being passed. and this became my preferred method of watching 4k hdr material.
My friend has asked me to find him a device that will play 4k hdr mkv's off a hard drive and do Atmos and DtsX, ive narrowed it down to the Zidoo Z9s and the Odroid N2, i think im leaning more towards the Zidoo simply as it would  be easier to set up and its not my money im spending lol.
So my question is when playing a movie in 4k hdr on the zidoo and for it to pass correct  MaxCLL/FALL HDR metadata, will the movie play trough ZDMC or outside of it.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - ashlar - 2020-01-20

In Hotfix #4 Shield 2019 (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/326572/2019-shield-experience-upgrade-810-hotfix-image/) I see "Resolves issue where “Match Frame Rate” was not working on Dolby Vision content in Netflix". Does this mean Shield is now capable of both framerate matching and colorspace matching, like ATV 4K is?


4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - lightsout - 2020-01-20

(2020-01-20, 16:28)ashlar Wrote: In Hotfix #4 Shield 2019 (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/326572/2019-shield-experience-upgrade-810-hotfix-image/) I see "Resolves issue where “Match Frame Rate” was not working on Dolby Vision content in Netflix". Does this mean Shield is now capable of both framerate matching and colorspace matching, like ATV 4K is?


It has been capable. But the frame rate switch is not automatic but takes a manual button press every time. It is also a beta feature and not perfect.

Auto color space switching has been a thing for a while but they always seem to have issues with it with certain TV's/and it has broken with different updates.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - ashlar - 2020-01-20

(2020-01-20, 19:47)lightsout Wrote:
(2020-01-20, 16:28)ashlar Wrote: In Hotfix #4 Shield 2019 (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/326572/2019-shield-experience-upgrade-810-hotfix-image/) I see "Resolves issue where “Match Frame Rate” was not working on Dolby Vision content in Netflix". Does this mean Shield is now capable of both framerate matching and colorspace matching, like ATV 4K is?


It has been capable. But the frame rate switch is not automatic but takes a manual button press every time. It is also a beta feature and not perfect.

Auto color space switching has been a thing for a while but they always seem to have issues with it with certain TV's/and it has broken with different updates. 
:-( I hoped they managed to solve it for good. After years and years one would imagine that they could...


4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - lightsout - 2020-01-20

(2020-01-20, 20:10)ashlar Wrote:
(2020-01-20, 19:47)lightsout Wrote:
(2020-01-20, 16:28)ashlar Wrote: In Hotfix #4 Shield 2019 (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/326572/2019-shield-experience-upgrade-810-hotfix-image/) I see "Resolves issue where “Match Frame Rate” was not working on Dolby Vision content in Netflix". Does this mean Shield is now capable of both framerate matching and colorspace matching, like ATV 4K is?


It has been capable. But the frame rate switch is not automatic but takes a manual button press every time. It is also a beta feature and not perfect.

Auto color space switching has been a thing for a while but they always seem to have issues with it with certain TV's/and it has broken with different updates. 
:-( I hoped they managed to solve it for good. After years and years one would imagine that they could...


At this rate I'm not too hopeful. That's why I don't update mine unless there's something it's going to fix.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - noggin - 2020-01-21

(2020-01-20, 19:47)lightsout Wrote:
(2020-01-20, 16:28)ashlar Wrote: In Hotfix #4 Shield 2019 (https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/forums/shield-tv/9/326572/2019-shield-experience-upgrade-810-hotfix-image/) I see "Resolves issue where “Match Frame Rate” was not working on Dolby Vision content in Netflix". Does this mean Shield is now capable of both framerate matching and colorspace matching, like ATV 4K is?


It has been capable. But the frame rate switch is not automatic but takes a manual button press every time. It is also a beta feature and not perfect.

Auto color space switching has been a thing for a while but they always seem to have issues with it with certain TV's/and it has broken with different updates. 

To be fair to nVidia - Android TV and tvOS implement frame rate switching in a similar way AIUI - app driven (not automatic).  Lots of tvOS apps have been rewritten to do it on the ATV (but not all), far fewer Android TV apps have been.  As a result nVidia have added a slightly kludgey manual solution to get round it.

Roku implemented fully automatic frame rate switching, but then had to disable it for Netflix because the Netflix autoplayed trailers flipped frame rates as you went from 23.976 to 25 to 29.97 trailers and TVs were re-syncing frantically as you surfed between shows.  (You want the app to know the difference between a trailer and a full movie/show and only change frame rate for the full movie/show - not all video...)


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - ashlar - 2020-01-21

(2020-01-21, 01:27)noggin Wrote: As a result nVidia have added a slightly kludgey manual solution to get round it.
How is it implemented, if I may ask? A video starts, you push a button on the remote and Shield frame matches output?


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