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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - Printable Version

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--- Thread: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. (/showthread.php?tid=332180)

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RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - noggin - 2018-08-17

(2018-08-17, 05:45)rexian Wrote:
(2018-08-15, 09:35)viperlogic Wrote:
(2018-08-15, 00:21)rexian Wrote:  Only issue I saw was that even for 23 or 24Hz videos, the display was constantly 59/60Hz and there was no option to change it to 23 / 24Hz in Settings. Will try Leia later and see if this is still a problem.  
 You can force it in advancedsettings.xml. I had to do it on my Vero 4K as my projector doesn't support 4K @ 59/60Hz   
Found an option in Fire TV under Settings > Display & Sound > Display > Match Original Frame Rate. Set this to ON and Kodi debug started showing frame rate around 23/24. Wonder why the default is off. I did notice a micro-stutter every few seconds with this option... as if there was a 24 -> 60 pull down of some sort. Even the audio would cut off for a quarter second... will try removing 17.6 and installing Leia this weekend  
  
Yes - the AFTV 3 (the pendant with 4K support) gained a match frame rate option in a recent firmware update. Annoyingy it looks as if apps have to be recoded to use it - as Netflix, BBC iPlayer etc. - don't currently frame rate switch, but Amazon Prime Video, MrMC and Kodi do. Finally Amazon realised there was an issue... (Hopefully Google will do something similar with Chromecasts soon)


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wrxtasy - 2018-08-17

(2018-08-17, 10:33)noggin Wrote: Finally Amazon realised there was an issue... (Hopefully Google will do something similar with Chromecasts soon)
Finally Amazon saw what Apple were doing selling ATV 4/4K devices to a Worldwide audience who's users need Frame Rate Matching functionality, and decided to try and give those users Firmware and Prime Video support.

I firmly believe the mainstream (non Kodi) Apps developers can only be bothered adding such support when media players have decent market share. Meaning Roku, Fire TV's and Apple, maybe Chromecast hardware, maybe.
Android TV by comparison is still pretty small & niche and very USA focussed.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - noggin - 2018-08-17

(2018-08-17, 11:12)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2018-08-17, 10:33)noggin Wrote: Finally Amazon realised there was an issue... (Hopefully Google will do something similar with Chromecasts soon)
Finally Amazon saw what Apple were doing selling ATV 4/4K devices to a Worldwide audience who's users need Frame Rate Matching functionality, and decided to try and give those users Firmware and Prime Video support. 

I wouldn't underestimate the power of some application providers in this either. BBC iPlayer is 720p50 for HD streams, and 50Hz support is important to the BBC as a result. iPlayer is a 'killer app' in the UK (with ITV Hub and All4 also significant) - and the UK is a decent sized market in Europe. Thus the BBC have a reasonable amount of clout with platform operators, and I expect other big streaming providers who are 50Hz based (effectively OTT or Catch Up services leveraged from TV providers with 50Hz movie, drama etc. catalogues) have similar clout.

The BBC moving to UHD HDR is also likely triggering some discussions about this too - particularly as the Apple TV 4K apparently supports HLG as well as DV and HDR10... I wouldn't be surprised if most UHD-capable platform operators/hardware providers are looking at UHD HLG DASH support as a result of this.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wesk05 - 2018-08-19

Since I keep referring to those Quants2D test patterns, I thought of posting some clips that demonstrates the output from various boxes, mainly Vero4K, nVIDIA Shield, LE-S905X, CE-S905X and CE-S912.

The clips below show the output of one of the HDR10 Quants2D test pattern (Quants2D-U4K_HDR10-Y064Cb-NearBlack). It's pretty obvious which output compares poorly with the others.
You may have to download the clips and watch them. Dropbox player seems to be transcoding.
Vero 4K - https://www.dropbox.com/s/8909xzvrav4tjwx/Vero4K.mp4?dl=0
nVIDIA Shield - https://www.dropbox.com/s/ceeh8uofyyy79nj/Shield.mp4?dl=0
LE on S905X - https://www.dropbox.com/s/5u00ed67nknvsj7/LE-S905.mp4?dl=0
CE on S905X - https://www.dropbox.com/s/dcwn7ctb6rqvwpb/CE-S905.mp4?dl=0
CE on S912 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/nphhsh4cds6sn7m/CE-S912.mp4?dl=0

If you are interested you can use this free software - IENT/YUView to check the YUV values of pixels. The software doesn't handle mp4/mkv containers very well. So, here are the links for the HEVC elementary streams for the above clips.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j1yqa2brg5rvwb9/Vero4K.hevc?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qa9liy49zqykenr/Shield.hevc?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ytbckwivlypydb2/LE-S905.hevc?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fdq4qq1zp0db163/CE-S905.hevc?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxz6fwe1sj90pw0/CE-S912.hevc?dl=0

If you zoom in (x64), you can see pixel values like in this screenshot. You can also see the pixel values without zooming using the "zoom out" box.
Image


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - Mount81 - 2018-08-19

Thanks!

But could you make it with some of the lighter samples? It's simply too dark for my monitor to see and conclude anything (almost plain back screen)...


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wrxtasy - 2018-08-19

(2018-08-19, 02:23)wesk05 Wrote: Since I keep referring to those Quants2D test patterns, I thought of posting some clips that demonstrates the output from various boxes, mainly Vero4K, nVIDIA Shield, LE-S905, CE-S905 and CD-S912.
Erm, plain S905 AMLogic devices are not HDR capable OR do you mean S905X ?


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wesk05 - 2018-08-19

(2018-08-19, 05:25)wrxtasy Wrote: Erm, plain S905 AMLogic devices are not HDR capable OR do you mean S905X ? 
I did mean S905X Smile


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wesk05 - 2018-08-19

(2018-08-19, 05:11)Mount81 Wrote: Thanks!

But could you make it with some of the lighter samples? It's simply too dark for my monitor to see and conclude anything (almost plain back screen)...
You have to watch it on a HDR display. My clips have HDR10 metadata. CE-905X/912 has dithering enabled in the output and it changes so frequently such that it produces a flicker.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - Mount81 - 2018-08-19

Sorry, I thought these would show on my monitor. In my case some photos from the screen would be more helpful as I don't have HDR/10bit display jet. But doesn't the particular playback device and the TV also alter the picture during playback of these samples?

Or at least someone can describe the result for each cases?


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wesk05 - 2018-08-19

@Mount81 Here are some frame exports from the clips. I changed the exposure to +7 for all of them so that the differences can be visualized easily.

Vero 4K - https://i.imgur.com/rDQYhXV.png

Image

LE-S905X - https://i.imgur.com/WCLoC1f.png

Image

CE-S905X - https://i.imgur.com/xLf8uEz.png

Image

CE-S912 - https://i.imgur.com/PxQsweA.png

Image

The  "smears"  that you see in this last one is for real.


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wrxtasy - 2018-08-19

thx Wesk05

LE S905X - which release of LibreELEC are you using for this, it will help with HDR Kernel development if we know which exact version was tested.

Same for Vero 4K, which exact release ?


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wesk05 - 2018-08-19

(2018-08-19, 06:22)wrxtasy Wrote: thx Wesk05

LE S905X - which release of LibreELEC are you using for this, it will help with HDR Kernel development if we know which exact version was tested.

Same for Vero 4K, which exact release ?
LE S905X - LibreELEC-S905.arm-9.0-nightly-20180818-533d914
Vero 4K - July update


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - Mount81 - 2018-08-19

Thanks!

So what would be your opinion and conclusion here regarding which has just dithering and which may have true 10bit?

I think the best result is with CE-S905X. Maybe really true 10bit here, or just more refined dithering (as it also not seems that overly perfect)? Edit: noh, take a closer look at the full picture and there's definitely some dithering/wash-up going on, resulting in also some random vertical line "noise".
CE-S912 has the second best result, but still much far from CE-S905X, so definitely no true 10bit here? 

IMO, and based only on these pictures.

Did you switched ON that "manual 10 bit" option in OSMC?


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - atomizasser - 2018-08-19

Which version of CE was used?


RE: 4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations. - wesk05 - 2018-08-19

(2018-08-19, 06:37)Mount81 Wrote: So what would be your opinion and conclusion here regarding which has just dithering and which may have true 10bit?
Did you switched ON that "manual 10 bit" option in OSMC?
Vero 4K and LE-S905X are the good ones. The patterns that you see are due to rounding errors. CE-S905X is actually the worst. It is actually 8-bit with dithering. CE-S912 is 10-bit with dithering. If there wasn't dithering CE-S192 will also look like Vero 4K and LE.

Yes, 10-bit mode was enabled for Vero 4K.

(2018-08-19, 09:07)atomizasser Wrote: Which version of CE was used?
8.95.0  release


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