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DSPlayer (DirectShow Player for XBMC) Frodo build available
(2015-03-23, 15:22)Talguy Wrote: Ok guys, This is a bit off topic. I have set up MADVR with MPC-HC but I rarely use it as I like using the kodi interface with my remote, which I don't get with MPC-HC. I'm still a noob and don't know how to customize FFDShow or MADVR to work perfectly with my system. Can anyone provide me with good articles that will help teach me how all the lingo and what to look for when tweaking the settings?

From the little bit that I have run Madvr on my medium power graphics card (GTS450), I can tell the difference. My picture looks so much better than before. If Madvr gets integrated into Kodi I will be updating my graphics card and will truly take the time to learn how to set everything up properly.

Use the madVR settings in my signature. I have the same graphics card. ffdshow is not needed. It is better to do the resizing in madVR. Make sure you update your graphics driver. I would also recommend using MPC-BE for LAV Filters 0.64 because it contains improvements to DXVA2 hardware decoding, but you might as well wait for DSPlayer to include madVR integration.

I am not an expert but I do a lot more reading than most. The guys at Doom9 are encyclopedias on this software but do a poor job of explaining things to others. To configure the software on a high-end card is easy - you just turn everything up to its maximum. On any other card, you have to compromise. Knowing where to compromise is a matter of understanding the chain of events that occurs before madVR renders an image on your screen. For example, chroma upscaling is less important than image scaling but more important than dithering. This is partly due to the fact dithering is the last step in the rendering chain, but also because chroma scaling requires more resources than good dithering. Chroma scaling is used to upscale the chroma (color) information to match the native luma resolution. But, after that, image scaling does all of the work to scale the image to the target resolution. So Image Scaling >> Chroma Upscaling >> Dithering.

This image is a good starting point for understanding the many options in madVR:

Image

If you are scaling to 1080p, I see no reason to upgrade your graphics card. I can turn everything up to max in madVR already. Moving to 4K, you would likely want a card that does NNEDI3 image doubling. Currently, the only one that is future proof with h.265 hardware decoding and HDMI 2.0 is the GTX960, and it is pretty weak. Cards like the Titan are needed for image doubling to higher resolutions. You are best to wait for a card capable of high-end 4K scaling with H.265 hardware acceleration. But it doesn't exist yet.

Life is easier when scaling to 1080p. In a worst-case scenario, you may want NNEDI3 luma doubling for SD content. But you can always move down to Lanczos image scaling to accommodate this because the difference with SD content is not nearly as apparent as content scaled from 1080p or 720p to 4K. If anything, the very aggressive scaling of NNEDI3 may make SD content look worse. It is a waste to use NNEDI3 scaling for 720p content because the scaling factor is only 1.5x and image doubling is overshooting its target. The quality gain is very minimal, and most can't tell the difference over Jinc3+AR.
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I wonder if aracnoz is going to code all of the madVR menus into Kodi or provide a way to access the default configuration panels? It would be great if everything could be done by remote, but I can't imagine having all of the menus and options included due to the amount of clutter it would create.

In my opinion, the default madVR panels are poorly designed and hard to understand. What I've seen, shows a marked improvement already.
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(2015-03-23, 20:13)Warner306 Wrote: I wonder if aracnoz is going to code all of the madVR menus into Kodi or provide a way to access the default configuration panels? It would be great if everything could be done by remote, but I can't imagine having all of the menus and options included due to the amount of clutter it would create.

In my opinion, the default madVR panels are poorly designed and hard to understand.

Poorly designed ,yes. Hard to understand , no.

I think Madshi put adequate info for each options though.
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(2015-03-23, 20:58)oldpoem Wrote:
(2015-03-23, 20:13)Warner306 Wrote: I wonder if aracnoz is going to code all of the madVR menus into Kodi or provide a way to access the default configuration panels? It would be great if everything could be done by remote, but I can't imagine having all of the menus and options included due to the amount of clutter it would create.

In my opinion, the default madVR panels are poorly designed and hard to understand.

Poorly designed ,yes. Hard to understand , no.

I think Madshi put adequate info for each options though.

I'd agree for the most part, but I find so many posts from people who use Lanczos scaling just so they can use NNEDI3 Chroma Quadrupling, which really does nothing to the image compared to plain old Jinc3+AR chroma upscaling.

Also, some swear that image doubling makes everything look better, but it clearly doesn't. Going from 720p to 1080p, you are wasting processing power by overscaling the image.

Debanding does not adequately explain that most exact copies of 1080p rips are in no need of debanding, with the exception of a scant few titles. More compressed content, on the other hand, is filled with banding artifacts.

I think it takes a lot to comprehend all of this information through a set of graphical menus.

Gamma processing and display calibration are the most difficult areas to understand. If you don't choose a display calibration setting, for example, then the gamma settings in a another menu do nothing.

In addition to resizing and post-processing, madVR is capable of doing a complete display calibration for your display.
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(2015-03-23, 21:18)Warner306 Wrote: I'd agree for the most part, but I find so many posts from people who use Lanczos scaling just so they can use NNEDI3 Chroma Quadrupling, which really does nothing to the image compared to plain old Jinc3+AR chroma upscaling.

Also, some swear that image doubling makes everything look better, but it clearly doesn't. Going from 720p to 1080p, you are wasting processing power by overscaling the image.

Debanding does not adequately explain that most exact copies of 1080p rips are in no need of debanding, with the exception of a scant few titles. More compressed content, on the other hand, is filled with banding artifacts.

I think it takes a lot to comprehend all of this information through a set of graphical menus.

Gamma processing and display calibration are the most difficult areas to understand. If you don't choose a display calibration setting, for example, then the gamma settings in a another menu do nothing.

In addition to resizing and post-processing, madVR is capable of doing a complete display calibration for your display.

Because some people think going for maximum option would bring best quality. Which is not certainly true in many case. You have to at least knew what's going on with each option to get best quality. It usually depends on source you want to play.

For example you wouldn't want to do any image doubling if your sources are in high resolution already. You also wouldn't want to do any unnecessary scaling / colorspace conversion too. Too many steps would reduce quality instead.

Also there isn't generic settings if you want best quality. I usually go with Jinc+AR but in many case going with Lanscoz + AR visually yield better result than Jinc + AR. It mostly depend on sources.
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(2015-03-23, 23:03)oldpoem Wrote:
(2015-03-23, 21:18)Warner306 Wrote: I'd agree for the most part, but I find so many posts from people who use Lanczos scaling just so they can use NNEDI3 Chroma Quadrupling, which really does nothing to the image compared to plain old Jinc3+AR chroma upscaling.

Also, some swear that image doubling makes everything look better, but it clearly doesn't. Going from 720p to 1080p, you are wasting processing power by overscaling the image.

Debanding does not adequately explain that most exact copies of 1080p rips are in no need of debanding, with the exception of a scant few titles. More compressed content, on the other hand, is filled with banding artifacts.

I think it takes a lot to comprehend all of this information through a set of graphical menus.

Gamma processing and display calibration are the most difficult areas to understand. If you don't choose a display calibration setting, for example, then the gamma settings in a another menu do nothing.

In addition to resizing and post-processing, madVR is capable of doing a complete display calibration for your display.

Because some people think going for maximum option would bring best quality. Which is not certainly true in many case. You have to at least knew what's going on with each option to get best quality. It usually depends on source you want to play.

For example you wouldn't want to do any image doubling if your sources are in high resolution already. You also wouldn't want to do any unnecessary scaling / colorspace conversion too. Too many steps would reduce quality instead.

Also there isn't generic settings if you want best quality. I usually go with Jinc+AR but in many case going with Lanscoz + AR visually yield better result than Jinc + AR. It mostly depend on sources.

Well, I would use image doubling if going from 1080p to 4K. NNEDI3 will offer the best result possible. I have read a comparison between image doubling and Jinc at this resolution and the user indicates that NNEDI3 is much sharper and indispensable when scaling to 4K. Otherwise, there would be no reason for madshi to include a scaling algorithm that uses so much processing power. The trick is to use a high neuron setting 64-128 to avoid artifacts. But this is difficult with most graphics cards.

madshi claims you will get the best bang for your buck with Luma Doubling and conforming other settings around this setting. However, the scaling factor must be at least 2x for the doubling to be effective. I am scaling from 720p to 1080p, so image doubling is not worthwhile.

I would agree that Lanczos can sometimes look better than Jinc at first glance because it is sharper. But after some viewing, you will realize that more detail is visible with Jinc. Trading the halo-like ringing with Lanczos for the increased depth of Jinc is worthwhile. Combine Jinc with the latest Nvidia driver and Error Diffusion 2 dithering yields a very sharp picture with little ringing.

I have read a post from a Pioneer Kuro user that a 3D LUT created with madVR test patterns produces a better result than any scaling settings. If I had a colorimeter, this is where I'd start. Trading a small of amount of processing resources for an ideal grayscale and color gamut would probably make the most impact.
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I wouldn't trust other comparison review much, rather prefer my own eyes. It is subjective matter. I personally don't have 4k Display and wouldn't want to have one until there are enough 4k material to play with. And I mean real media not demos.

I'd disagree on the basis of more visible details with Jinc, Remember that I use Jinc in my main profile but many times I rather find it too blurry comparing to Lanczos and would rather called it less details instead. Also we all knew the disadvantage of ringing that come with Lanczos. I just pointed out that it doesn't suit all sources & personal preference could be different.

Also I think the conversation now rather off-topic and seem to not belong here. Let keep it Kodi related.
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I think that is enough technical preamble to feature that hasn't been released yet. I did answer the original poster about madVR and his GTS450. I'd keep it as it does the job just fine.

I do spend a lot of time in other forums where madVR is used. I was just outlining that the topic of madVR is voluminous and prone to misinterpretation. If aracnoz can achieve an implementation of the renderer similar to JRiver Media Center, the number of technical questions regarding this software will grow quickly. It is deceptively simple, but actually very complex.

Understanding the correct use of smooth motion, for example, and whether or not this qualifies as motion interpolation has spanned many pages of debate in other forums. As has the value of a 3D LUT and whether it impacts black levels.

It can be a lot of fun to play with different rendering settings. There are literally hundreds of combinations.

The bottom line is DSPlayer will be better with madVR.
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I am definately looking forward to your MadVR + ffdraw guide WarnerSmile I have LAV and only defined ffdraw in mediaconfig (don't know if that the best approach to use ffdraw).

I have A8-7600 AMD with 384 shaders. Would that be able to use madvr in good conditions?

And finally thanks a lot aracnoz for you big effort on this "madder"Smile. I looks like you are the one to finally pull it off..
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(2015-03-23, 15:51)oldpoem Wrote:
(2015-03-23, 15:22)Talguy Wrote: Ok guys, This is a bit off topic. I have set up MADVR with MPC-HC but I rarely use it as I like using the kodi interface with my remote, which I don't get with MPC-HC. I'm still a noob and don't know how to customize FFDShow or MADVR to work perfectly with my system. Can anyone provide me with good articles that will help teach me how all the lingo and what to look for when tweaking the settings?

From the little bit that I have run Madvr on my medium power graphics card (GTS450), I can tell the difference. My picture looks so much better than before. If Madvr gets integrated into Kodi I will be updating my graphics card and will truly take the time to learn how to set everything up properly.

I'd say you would need to read this link as starting point.

http://www.ezoden.com/htpc/4/how-to-setu...troduction

While it was written to be used with MPC-HC. The basic is still the same for using with Kodi DSPlayer. You'd still like to use FFDShow RAW filter even MadVR was intregrated in Kodi. So better read and learn.

For now you can try to use FFDShow with DSPlayer and let FFDShow do all the post-processing thing the way you like. The result would improved from normal Kodi quality. And if you want to push further you can try avisynth mentioned in that article which would improve it more (at a cost of cpu load).

(2015-03-23, 20:06)Warner306 Wrote:
(2015-03-23, 15:22)Talguy Wrote: Ok guys, This is a bit off topic. I have set up MADVR with MPC-HC but I rarely use it as I like using the kodi interface with my remote, which I don't get with MPC-HC. I'm still a noob and don't know how to customize FFDShow or MADVR to work perfectly with my system. Can anyone provide me with good articles that will help teach me how all the lingo and what to look for when tweaking the settings?

From the little bit that I have run Madvr on my medium power graphics card (GTS450), I can tell the difference. My picture looks so much better than before. If Madvr gets integrated into Kodi I will be updating my graphics card and will truly take the time to learn how to set everything up properly.

Use the madVR settings in my signature. I have the same graphics card. ffdshow is not needed. It is better to do the resizing in madVR. Make sure you update your graphics driver. I would also recommend using MPC-BE for LAV Filters 0.64 because it contains improvements to DXVA2 hardware decoding, but you might as well wait for DSPlayer to include madVR integration.

I am not an expert but I do a lot more reading than most. The guys at Doom9 are encyclopedias on this software but do a poor job of explaining things to others. To configure the software on a high-end card is easy - you just turn everything up to its maximum. On any other card, you have to compromise. Knowing where to compromise is a matter of understanding the chain of events that occurs before madVR renders an image on your screen. For example, chroma upscaling is less important than image scaling but more important than dithering. This is partly due to the fact dithering is the last step in the rendering chain, but also because chroma scaling requires more resources than good dithering. Chroma scaling is used to upscale the chroma (color) information to match the native luma resolution. But, after that, image scaling does all of the work to scale the image to the target resolution. So Image Scaling >> Chroma Upscaling >> Dithering.

This image is a good starting point for understanding the many options in madVR:

Image

If you are scaling to 1080p, I see no reason to upgrade your graphics card. I can turn everything up to max in madVR already. Moving to 4K, you would likely want a card that does NNEDI3 image doubling. Currently, the only one that is future proof with h.265 hardware decoding and HDMI 2.0 is the GTX960, and it is pretty weak. Cards like the Titan are needed for image doubling to higher resolutions. You are best to wait for a card capable of high-end 4K scaling with H.265 hardware acceleration. But it doesn't exist yet.

Life is easier when scaling to 1080p. In a worst-case scenario, you may want NNEDI3 luma doubling for SD content. But you can always move down to Lanczos image scaling to accommodate this because the difference with SD content is not nearly as apparent as content scaled from 1080p or 720p to 4K. If anything, the very aggressive scaling of NNEDI3 may make SD content look worse. It is a waste to use NNEDI3 scaling for 720p content because the scaling factor is only 1.5x and image doubling is overshooting its target. The quality gain is very minimal, and most can't tell the difference over Jinc3+AR.

Thanks for the info guys. I'll look into it and hopefully be up to speed by the time "MADPlayer" is out
Image
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(2015-03-24, 11:46)Bjur Wrote: I am definately looking forward to your MadVR + ffdraw guide WarnerSmile I have LAV and only defined ffdraw in mediaconfig (don't know if that the best approach to use ffdraw).

I have A8-7600 AMD with 384 shaders. Would that be able to use madvr in good conditions?

And finally thanks a lot aracnoz for you big effort on this "madder"Smile. I looks like you are the one to finally pull it off..

There is already a detailed guide on using ffdraw with madVR. It is in one of the most recent posts in this thread.

I started a guide on configuring DSPlayer with LAV Filters and madVR. The resizing algorithms in madVR are superior to ffdraw. However, ffdraw allows post-processing that can add sharpening effects, remove grain, etc. It is a totally different approach to image rendering that can yield results similar to madVR + LAV.
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and stop ... so who was taking the time? how long it took me to integrate madVR into DSPlayer?

a bit of irony for one of the most difficult things I've done with DSPlayer
I would like to thank madshi ... I contacted him on doom9 having 0 posts, and with no credibility in the community and was immediately available and he has always helped me with infinite patience
in the last few days I asked for advice even on what to wear in the morning Big Grin, without his help I would definitely integrated madVR because I have a hard head, but with his help it was all much easier and faster

thank you madshi...

How much good is the integration of madVR in DSPlayer? ... honestly I have no idea, I have to admit that I never used madVR continuously because I love the XBMC gui so I do not know nothing about all his infinite power
so maybe it will be you to tell me... certain is that I had never seen a gui so advanced as that of kodi that works on madVR, i'm very proud of the final result

some details...

Now in Video Renderer there is a list, so madvr will appear if it's installed in the system

when we select madVR as renderer kodi shows two options

The first one allows you to choose if to use the gui of kodi to configure some of the most important madVR options, on the advice of madshi I included this possibility because some more advanced users have created profiles on madVR that probably don't want to lose

if we use the interface of kodi to configure the settings of madVR, for every video will be stored the custom settings, i created a table in dsplayer database with all madvr options, so the behavior it's as with normal video settings of kodi... you can also change the default values and then assign them to all videos

the second option in the menu DSPlayer on madvr it's to enable the fullscreen exclusive mode of madVR, to make madvr work in exclusive mode i had to force kodi in windowed mode... so when we select madvr as video renderer kodi will work only in windowed mode in this way madvr can use his own exclusive mode
(the point is or madvr goes in exclusive mode or kodi... infact madvr it's like another window)

one last note it's on NNEDI3 double settings, there are many rules on how and when you can turn on the different options, the trayicon of madVR follows these rules, the interface that i had use to set madVR no, so I could not replicate all these rules

so to make it work properly you must know what you are doing


it is time to test... everything it's in my signature
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Smile
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I only had time to do a quick test. The player crashed on stop a few times and the menu to adjust settings is very laggy. I was using full screen exclusive mode.

Compared to Media Player Classic, the rendering queues are identical, which is great. But I still think Media Player Classic has a slightly clearer picture. But I don't know why. Others with external players should weigh-in with the picture quality differences between the players. It could be something is not working correctly with the DSPlayer implimentation. Rendering performance is excellent using the same settings with the two players.

Thanks for all of this work. I'm sure many people will gravitate to DSPlayer just to give this a try. Still unstable, though.
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Greyscale is different from my MPC - BE. Maybe the player is not following the display profile setting found in Madvr setting? I think dsplayer needs to be recalibrated. Will try again using video test patterns and see if it works
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