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Allwinner A10 : Is XBMC ported to MALI-400MP ?
And in the next thrilling installment of "All My Winners"...

http://www.j1nx.nl/xbmc-allwinner-a10-up...omment-598

Quote:Hey Peter,

On IRC hipboi announced that you guys got the wrong system libs. His co-worker forgot to enable from ifdef’s. So maybe there is some hope left.

Will Allwinner be able to overcome the XBMC dev-team's completely justified aversion to working with them after all the foot-dragging and lies? Will Geniatech's ATV1200 ever reach US shores in the form of a Pivos box, ensuring that I don't care HOW that particular plot point turns out? Stay tuned!
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(2012-08-20, 19:10)Corporate Dog Wrote: And in the next thrilling installment of "All My Winners"...

http://www.j1nx.nl/xbmc-allwinner-a10-up...omment-598

Quote:Hey Peter,

On IRC hipboi announced that you guys got the wrong system libs. His co-worker forgot to enable from ifdef’s. So maybe there is some hope left.

Will Allwinner be able to overcome the XBMC dev-team's completely justified aversion to working with them after all the foot-dragging and lies? Will Geniatech's ATV1200 ever reach US shores in the form of a Pivos box, ensuring that I don't care HOW that particular plot point turns out? Stay tuned!

When i make changes to the source code and add aditional "#ifdefs" and recompile. The FILEDATE and MD5SUM of the file changes.

The rest is up to you, getting a conclusion out of that fact.


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i dont know why a company will make fun out of you in that way Gimli, it just not make any sence.
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I think this is escalating out of control. Let's sum up what Allwinner has done so far:

1. Agree to work together with the XBMC team to make XBMC on A10 a reality. (Good)
2. After hearing what needed to be changed, promised to fix them. (Good)
3. Sent over a "changed lib" that turned out to be the exact same thing. (Bad)
4. Stated that they are redeveloping cedarX by following OPENMAX and will share soon. (Good)
5. Made a few excuses about the lib not being the same. (wrong date on buildserver/forgot to enable ifdef's) (Good/Bad... we will see in the following days.)

Some facts:

1. They are a Chinese company. As stated in a few posts back, this isn't exactly the "free world".
2. They are a small company without the available resources to jump on this and get results in a matter of days.
3. In my experience, Chinese people are too polite and "honorfull" to immediately admit when they are at fault or can't keep up with promises made. Hence, the "lying".
4. If the provided lib's are such "crap" that they cannot be used properly by the XBMC team, perhaps the Allwinner developers aren't that good. Because why would ANY company make a bad "product" if they knew how to make a good one?
5. Technology is evolving at an unhealthy pace, and competition between the hardware manufacturers must be killing. Perhaps this is making them rush out their products before they are properly finished. If they are understaffed and already working on the successor, maybe there will be no time to work on this.
6. Chinese economy is a air-bubble. To keep current growth possible air-bubbles are created everywhere. Not only in technology, but also in building-sectors. Great example is the following movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPILhiTJv7E

My conclusion: Allwinner promised to to fix their lib's and share them with the community (not just XBMC developers) so everybody can make up their mind on the provided files. If Allwinner states that this is all we will get we will have to live with it. If they did make a honest mistake, we will recieve the correct files any time in the future. Also, don't forget the promise to redevelop using a Openmax approach. Let's calm down, put down the burning torches and leave them be for now. If they don't come up with a sollution, it's their loss. If they do, I certainly hope that the XBMC team will find the time and heart to continue with this project. Fact is that PIVOS has been 110% helpfull and Allwinner hasn't proven itself, so if you want a sure sollution, go with PIVOS, they deserve it. But If Allwinner does make the changes I think they deserve our support as well.

[/rant]

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The #ifdef thing is a bit odd, has been a long time since i worked with C so i dont really remember, if the source code has anything new in it the md5sum has to change, thats a fact, but i dont remember what happen when ifdefs are just static false, the compiler may be ignoring them and end up with the exact same binary, but is unlikely, i think is just another lie, still it does not make sence to me... a simple "maybe later" is enoght.
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Hi

http://pastebin.com/gssbg9k0

well, I do not know what to think, I leave the judgment to you.
the fact remains that I don' t like the XIOS DS i would prefer a real HTPC device with sata, spdif ecc.
as my mele a2000 Wink
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Quote:13:47 <hipboi> made a mistake about the #ifdef
13:47 <hipboi> which leads the lib uncompiled
13:47 <hipboi> so the checksum is the same

I wish we received the uncompiled lib Big Grin
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great so Gimli is now pre-Alpha tester for AllWinner.... :O -that was not even tested, ONCE-
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(2012-08-20, 21:44)Shivansps Wrote: The #ifdef thing is a bit odd, has been a long time since i worked with C so i dont really remember, if the source code has anything new in it the md5sum has to change, thats a fact, but i dont remember what happen when ifdefs are just static false, the compiler may be ignoring them and end up with the exact same binary, but is unlikely, i think is just another lie, still it does not make sence to me... a simple "maybe later" is enoght.

#ifdef's in C, when evaluated negatively, is handled by the pre-processor. (cpp) and every line of code inside the statement is removed completely before it is sent to the compiler.

Assuming you have nothing generated automatically based on build-number, or dates, the binary produced will be identical.

Having done this mistake myself, it is not so hard to image that it could happen.

This is not *my* opinion on Allwinner and this situation though, just commenting on the #ifdef in C


ps. "sense".
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I highly doubt that just #ifdefs were added, normally you have to restructure code and that would have changed the checksum.
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(2012-08-20, 21:22)Nu7s Wrote: 3. In my experience, Chinese people are too polite and "honorfull" to immediately admit when they are at fault or can't keep up with promises made. Hence, the "lying".

Good thing you added "" to honorfull, lying as a company is not very honorfull.

Also if you release a new version of something, I think it's normal that you test your new version for the things you wanted to have fixed?

The #ifdef thing is very implausable, but still possible.... But if you add the fact that the filedates were also wrong(May)... To me they have just sent an old version of their blob.


The honorfull thing to do would be saying sorry and admitting that they were wrong, for example.. And maybe also admitting that they don't have the correct people inhouse to improve the damn thing.

As it's very hard to really know what's going on, these are just speculations.

But if they do not have the skilled people inhouse, why not hire someone skilled who wants to do it for a price and let him(/her) sign an NDA?
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(2012-08-20, 22:29)von fritz Wrote: Hi

http://pastebin.com/gssbg9k0

well, I do not know what to think, I leave the judgment to you.
the fact remains that I don' t like the XIOS DS i would prefer a real HTPC device with sata, spdif ecc.
as my mele a2000 Wink

Intresting. "hipboi" alias Tom Cubie telling that story on IRC to the community, not the developers it belongs to. Keep in mind Tom Cubie is employed by Allwinner.
Since we told Allwinner that their blob is the same, no mail's from Allwinner. No atempt to proof that we are wrong and they held their agreement.

As Tom Cubie stated. Allwinner just wanna see sales numbers in form of oder numbers, they don't see it that third party software indirect helps them in raise sales numbers.

Here i leave the judgment to you, the community.

P.S.: I'm pretty sure Allwiner lost my mail adress again Wink
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(2012-08-20, 15:56)davilla Wrote:
(2012-08-20, 13:02)oliv3r Wrote: Having the binary blobs for the mali GPU closed, is just a huge step back and will cause problems in the end. A step back, as Both intel and AMD show, that it's quite possible to have Open Source Video drivers. You can argue that 'this isn't ubuntu Desktop', but why not? You can use one of these socs, and make very low powerd desktops from them?

I think the whole point of opensource, is not having a blob somewhere and 'as long as it works, who cares'. Why would we want to use things like Linux in the first place? Anyway, that's a discussion for elsewhere entirely.

I don't know on which bits the lima driver leans for the mali, but if you say that the opensource kernel bits and userland bits are that dependant on eachother, chances are the Lima driver has its own KMS bit. Luckly lima is slowly progressing further and further, because some people actually do care Smile

Welcome to the real world of company policies and protected IP Smile I take a practical approach to open source, not a fanatical. Userland Mali/Ump/Opengles have always been closed source, embedded, desktop or otherwise. Like I mentioned, it takes an NDA from ARM to obtain source code. And it's not just ARM/Mali, ImgTech and others do the same thing. These are system libs and closed source system libs are permitted under GPLv2. Nothing new here. Nothing really to discuss.

The Intel/AMD driver suck, everyone knows it. Is it because they are open source ? Not sure. I run Nvidia cards in my desktop linux boxes, why... Because it just works and their hardware decode using vdpau just smokes intel/amd.

Lima driver is an interesting project and I give it several years before it reaches a viable stage but by then GPUs will be much, much more complicated and I suspect Lima will fall behind from insufficient resources. All these open source drivers are great but, the number of persons that are actually qualified to understand and make sensible changes/improvements are quite small, and the number who are interested enough to do it, even smaller.

Here's a my lesson in FOSS... I (with Jarod) worked with Broadcom to open source their kernel and userland code for the CrystalHD. The CrystalHD has valid decoding licenses from Broadcom attached to the hardware. That means a FOSS solution for hw decode of h264, mpeg2 and vc1 that includes proper licensing attached to every single device. We pushed it out into the open and not one open source person besides us EVER looked at improving the code. No one. zero. zip, nada. If I had not put it into XBMC, I doubt than any other OpenSOurce media app would have picked it up. Open Source is great but the reality is that the number of people that can actually look at kernel/device code and understand much less improve it is quite small. Now if this is how something 'simple' like CrystalHD was treated, anything more complex such as a video driver becomes even less likely to receive attention and resources that it needs to be practical.

I'm doing it again with Pivos, we pushed everything public with the hope that the FOSS userland will support and provide Pivos with the resources to further product development and improvements. It remains to be see if this will be a successful business model.

(2012-08-20, 13:02)oliv3r Wrote: Back to Amlogic, if all amlogic userland and kernel drivers are open (except the mali driver of course) then a fully FOSS device can be built, correct? Or is the VPU userland also binary only? With VPU support, I didn't really mean kernel/userland mode, but rather binary only mode, again, firmware is okay to be closed blob.

I suggest actually looking at the source code provided, all of your questions are answered there. I chose Amlogic SoC for Pivos specifically because of the amount of source code available. The only binary blobs are the firmware that gets loaded to the VPU and audio DSP. VPU is handled in kernel driver, audio DSP is handled in userland. Both methods are permitted under GPLv2. So with Amlogic, you are about as FOSS as you are going to get in the real world of companies that spend large amount of resources to license, design, test and manufacture ARM SoCs.
You are very right with regards to the broadcom support. I actually have one. I bought it specifically because it was opensource. I haven't done 'much' with it, it's in my new htpc to be Wink

As for changes bug/fixes. Is there anything needed? It works as advertised, right? But I'm sure, that if in 3 years time, some kernel stuff may change, or some user land adaptions will be required someone will step up to do the work Smile You are very much right however. The people who understand and are able to work on these things are minimal. It's complex stuff without a doubt. Is it because nobody wants to do the work? Nah, I think most people consider it 'done', no? There already is serious lack of manpower for a lot of projects.

I even understand, to an extend, your practical standpoint, maybe less much your reasoning, "If it works, who cares". I know that certain things will only work with blobs and there's nothing we can do about it (mali gpu for example). In such a situation, absolutely. Using the blob is the only option and for practical reasons needs to be used. It's not however something to aim for!

In any case, I'll take a deep look into the AMLogic bits of the pivos git repo, but I was unaware that, besides the firmware and the binary mali blob, it was in such good (FOSS) shape. As said, firmware is acceptable and until lima works well enough to support XBMC, mali blob will be too. And thus native FOSS XBMC hardware is a reality then!


Back ontopic Smile
If Allwinner doesn't want to get aboard, who needs them, there's an alternative. Having A10 support would be nice, but unless it's at least as 'open source' as pivos/amlogic, A10 will be irrelevant.

P.S. Divilla, all said and done, Big Kudos to you for the work you've done so far Smile
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OK, I have to do this Wink
Quote:to xiaochuan, weng, me, service
Hi,

thank your for your informative mail. Apologize accepted.
I'll wait the next couple of days and see what comes.

Cheers
gimli
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I think this means Allwinner gave an explanation/apology ? Nice Smile

Also nice of gimli to accept it.

Thanks for letting us know J1nx.
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