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looun · 2016-02-19, 12:10

3D ... Portable Big Grin

display resolution of up to 3840*2160, with HDMI-in Undecided

and .. Are we witnessing the death of 3D? Probably not.

~~Dave the Minion~~ · 2016-02-19, 12:48

3D is far from dead. So Visio dropped it. If you buy Visio anything you aren't buying it because the 3D is awesome you are buying it because you want the biggest TV you can afford on credit today and have zero clue about why one 65" TV costs more than 3 times what another 65" TV does.

Deadpool isn't 3D because the studio took calculated gambles without knowing what the box office would look like. Since it's making money like crazy, for now, the sequel will get very strong 3D consideration unless Reynolds et all oppose of it greatly. And for the record, that opening scene would have been AMAZEBALLS in 3D as would most of the rest of the film. X-Men is 3D. All the MCU movies are 3D. Deadpool 2 will be pushed to be 3D now and it's even possible this film gets a home video 3D BD at some point like I, Robot and Jumper (both Fox titles, hint hint).

hdmkv · (This post was last modified: 2016-02-19, 14:22 by hdmkv.)

(2016-02-19, 09:36)Skank Wrote: Look at this new, upcoming title from same make of sammy's adventures 1&2
The guy now for sure how to do 3d right, so cant wait for this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCeQkxLhhL0

Excellent, will import it as with Sammy's 1 & 2 if I have to. Ben Stassen is one of the few filmmakers really talking advantage of 3D, even if his movies are a little lacking story/characters wise. BTW, have you seen his 'Thunder and the House of Magic' 3D? Very good!

Skank · 2016-02-19, 14:25

Will check that tiltle thx

hdmkv · (This post was last modified: 2016-02-19, 16:06 by hdmkv.)

Brief Q10 Pro update by Futeko: http://www.futeko.com/newforum/index.php?topic=592.0 Smile

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Skank · 2016-02-19, 16:59

nice one

movie78 · 2016-02-19, 20:40

The forum has gone a little quiet, I guess we need some new to get excited about.

noggin · (This post was last modified: 2016-02-20, 03:26 by noggin.)

(2016-02-17, 19:59)hdmkv Wrote:
(2016-02-17, 18:14)alanisrox69 Wrote: Q5 can't play 1080i MPEG-2 4:2:2 video. Shows black screen.

So far the only player than can do MPEG-2 4:2:2 is the WDTV Live player (years old!). I haven't tested if the WDTV can bitstream DTS-HD MA tho.
Have a sample I can test with? MediaInfo doesn't indicate profile it seems (like 4:2:2). Just tried on a OTA capture of Monday's Grammys, which is 1080i mpeg2. Profile just shows "Main@High".

If they are network backhauls then 4:2:2 MPEG2 makes sense - though I'm surprised MPEG2 is still being used. It's being retired quickly in Europe in preference to 4:2:2 H264. More and more shows are using H264 these days. The Eurovision Song Contest is both - but most broadcasters are taking the H264 feeds.

Lots of feeds here are encrypted - but the Eurovision isn't.

Quote:
(2016-02-19, 01:24)alanisrox69 Wrote:
(2016-02-17, 19:59)hdmkv Wrote: [quote='alanisrox69' pid='2248627' dateline='1455725690']Q5 can't play 1080i MPEG-2 4:2:2 video. Shows black screen.

So far the only player than can do MPEG-2 4:2:2 is the WDTV Live player (years old!). I haven't tested if the WDTV can bitstream DTS-HD MA tho.
Have a sample I can test with? MediaInfo doesn't indicate profile it seems (like 4:2:2). Just tried on a OTA capture of Monday's Grammys, which is 1080i mpeg2. Profile just shows "Main@High".

Will upload you a sample. The backhaul feed of the Grammy's via KU Satellite was 4:2:2 as is all the CBS backhauls. There are many other backhauls that are 4:2:2

(2016-02-19, 02:35)alanisrox69 Wrote: Here's a sample of Mpeg-2 4:2:2. It has DTS-HD MA 5.1 as the main audio track (converted from Dolby-E PCM as there are no known plugins to decode Dolby-E on the fly, so converting to DTS-HD MA is the best choice to keep it lossless), and also Mpeg Audio 2.0 @ 384kbps as secondary audio. This was from the Grammy's backhaul feed on Monday via Free-to-Air satellite...so it should be fine to post online

It's hard to get a player that decodes 4:2:2, but like I said, the WDTV Live decodes it like a champ.

As you'll see in the MediaInfo it does show it as 4:2:2@high

https://mega.nz/#!c9dhAaKA!MG5Yi-MJNATE2...NwG8Ggdw3E

Code:
General ID : 1 (0x1) Complete name : Bieber Grammys.ts Format : MPEG-TS File size : 1.40 GiB Duration : 6mn 26s Overall bit rate mode : Variable Overall bit rate : 31.2 Mbps Maximum Overall bit rate : 35.5 Mbps Video ID : 4113 (0x1011) Menu ID : 1 (0x1) Format : MPEG Video Format version : Version 2 Format profile : 4:2:2@High Format settings, BVOP : Yes Format settings, Matrix : Default Format settings, GOP : M=4, N=60 Format settings, picture structure : Frame Codec ID : 2 Duration : 6mn 26s Bit rate mode : Variable Maximum bit rate : 26.6 Mbps Width : 1 920 pixels Height : 1 080 pixels Display aspect ratio : 16:9 Frame rate : 29.970 fps Color space : YUV Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2 Bit depth : 8 bits Scan type : Interlaced Scan order : Top Field First Compression mode : Lossy Time code of first frame : 00:00:00;00 Time code source : Group of pictures header Audio #1 ID : 4352 (0x1100) Menu ID : 1 (0x1) Format : DTS Format/Info : Digital Theater Systems Format profile : MA / Core Mode : 16 Format settings, Endianness : Big Muxing mode : Stream extension Codec ID : 134 Duration : 6mn 25s Bit rate mode : Variable Bit rate : Unknown / 1 509 Kbps Channel(s) : 6 channels Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Bit depth : 24 bits Compression mode : Lossless / Lossy Delay relative to video : 21ms Language : English Audio #2 ID : 4353 (0x1101) Menu ID : 1 (0x1) Format : MPEG Audio Format version : Version 1 Format profile : Layer 2 Codec ID : 4 Duration : 6mn 26s Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 384 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Compression mode : Lossy Delay relative to video : 17ms Stream size : 17.7 MiB (1%) Language : English

One show I worked on hit 55Mbs+ MPEG2 for a backhaul - so 32Mbs sounds quite low (though it's what Eurovision used at one point with MPEG2, though I think the EBU are now using around 38Mbs H264 4:2:2)

Yep - DTS-HD MA is a good choice. It's relatively straightforward to convert Dolby E to DTS HD MA if you have the software. I know that Dolby E was reverse engineered by a developer a few years ago - but they didn't release it as Open Source.

I do wonder how long Dolby E will continue to be used. I know it has some advantages, but it is a pain to handle. Most areas I know have given up routing Dolby E streams around facilities and now decode to multichannel embedded at the IRD and route it as discrete audios in higher levels (with stereo still on Level 1) and re-code to Dolby E on final encode if they have to. In the days of HD Cam we had no real option but to use it - but since HD Cam SR - and now file based processing of recorded programmes, and fibre contribution / backhaul, there only really remains a use for it on satellite, and even then 3 x 320k MP2 dual-mono pairs may be a better bet (IF you can ensure they stay in the right order and you get the metadata right)

~~Dave the Minion~~ · 2016-02-20, 01:31

So..... full MVC 3D with HD audio?

alanisrox69 · 2016-02-20, 05:00

noggin, this was the KU back haul for the Grammys, I don't have my CBand dish up yet (need some non freezing weather to get it finished) but last year and previous years there was a 55mbps MPEG-2 4:2:2 feed on Cband for the Grammys. That said, this year I didn't see any posts with a location for that feed, only a ~26mbps (video) KU feed for the Grammys. Either way, it's still awesome quality compared to what the local stations do to the video when they compress it to 10mbps lol.

noggin · 2016-02-20, 12:41

(2016-02-20, 05:00)alanisrox69 Wrote: noggin, this was the KU back haul for the Grammys, I don't have my CBand dish up yet (need some non freezing weather to get it finished) but last year and previous years there was a 55mbps MPEG-2 4:2:2 feed on Cband for the Grammys. That said, this year I didn't see any posts with a location for that feed, only a ~26mbps (video) KU feed for the Grammys. Either way, it's still awesome quality compared to what the local stations do to the video when they compress it to 10mbps lol.

Yep - 26Mbs sounds a bit marginal for 'challenging' content like the Grammys. The 34ishMbs MPEG2 4:2:2 Eurovision feed had visible compression artefacts - the 38Mbs H264 version looks a lot nicer.

The old rule of thumb for MPEG2 was 2:1 for concatenation - so if you were broadcasting at 13Mbs then your source needed to be at least 26Mbs, and if that was your distribution codec bitrate then your contribution/backhaul needed to be about 50Mbs? (though this ignored 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2)

alanisrox69 · 2016-02-20, 17:24

Where did you find the 38mbps h264 version?

hdmkv · 2016-02-20, 18:01

(2016-02-20, 01:31)Dave the Minion Wrote: So..... full MVC 3D with HD audio?

For Q10 Pro? Yes, like w/current-gen, but in ISO container only. MVC MKV support requested.

**UsefulG** · 2016-02-20, 21:28

Thanks @hdmkv for the updates I am looking forward to the Q10 Pro.

ma9ick · (This post was last modified: 2016-02-20, 22:47 by ma9ick.)

Regarding 3D... It's strange how nobody sees an elephant in the room. Display technology that can provide quality 3D rendering currently has very small market share (plasma, OLED and pretty expensive projectors). LCD is intrinsically unsuitable for 3D content because of its lag (low refresh rate) and plasma is dead while OLED is a way too expensive for mainstream. I've seen 3D on my friend's expensive Samsung LCD TV and I can tell you its no where near my Panasonic GT60 plasma (same BD title, same BD player, same HDMI cable).

Also, there is more than meets the eye when it comes to 3D (no pun intended) - not all titles are rendered the same way on all BD players and TVs. For some reason, Edge of Tomorrow (2014) produces very unpleasant / weird parallax on my Panasonic BD / TV - it's very hard to watch, even for me who's not sensitive to this sort of things. I've tried different settings (Left first, Right first, different depth settings) but nothing seems right. Some 3D BD titles are OK, some are better, some are worse but there is the one that is absolutely awesome - Titanic, a then there is the Edge of Tomorrow on the opposite end of the spectrum (at least on my rig).

3D movie making also creates opportunity for completely new film grammar and provides cinematographers with new set of tools (with which they have no idea what to do), but it is also expensive to shoot in 3D so studios often opt for post-production 2D to 3D conversion which (obviously) is not always successful (especially if a movie was not shot with 3D in mind and if the conversion is done cheaply).

Add to this facts that there are people who are extremely sensitive to 3D (makes their heads/eyes hurt), and there is even small percentage of people who don't see 3D effect at all. So, when you do cross-section of those numbers, you get a tiny group of people who can really appreciate 3D in its full glory (lucky plasma, OLED and high-end projector owners who are not sensitive to 3D and can enjoy the effect in its full potential).

Now, that small O/oo of people have only handful of titles that they can enjoy (if they are not seven-year-old) so while being compelling 3D is also very expensive and unrewarding for them. That's why 3D is hard to sell to a regular TV buyer.