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Intel Apollo Lake
Main point was that you can watch almost anything even with non HDR linux and it looks good.
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(2018-08-15, 15:21)P.Kosunen Wrote: Main point was that you can watch almost anything even with non HDR linux and it looks good.
 Exactly :-) - this is also the way I see it. When we get 10 bit visuals we make the best of it as well.
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
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I'm an ASRock J4205-ITX owner and tech support vagabond having wandered here from the ASRock Intel Motherboards forum where I was an active participant in the thread titled "J4205-ITX HDMI output".  Over time that thread gathered 97 comments filling 10 pages, but it has now slowly drifted into obscurity and currently resides on page six of the forum.  I have arrived at this forum with the hope that some other person with a J4205-ITX, and using Windows 10, might be able to confirm what I believe to be an anomaly in the J4205 bios that causes a blank display problem with the HDMI port.

What I have encountered is that if the bios setting "CSM(Compatibility Support Module)" was previously set to Disabled, and an OS restart occurs when the HDMI connected LCD display is powered-off, the CSM(Compatibility Support Module) setting is somehow being changed to Enabled without any user intervention.  Once the OS has loaded the LCD display will show a blank screen with a flashing mouse pointer rather than the expected Windows 10 Start screen.

Alternatively, if the OS restart occurs while the LCD display remains powered-on, the CSM(Compatibility Support Module) setting does not change and remains set to Disabled.  The HDMI connected LCD display will function as expected once the OS has loaded after the restart.  Below are the procedures I have performed to demonstrate the bios anomaly.  With my J4205-ITX these outcomes are repeatable.

Procedure Notes:
1) I use the notation "CSM" as an abbreviation for the "CSM(Compatibility Support Module)" bios configuration found at the bottom of the J4205-ITX bios setup "Boot" page.

2) I use the notation "Windows 10 Start screen" as the screen displayed by Windows 10 at start-up that shows the current date and time.  Pressing the "Enter" key, or left-clicking the mouse, will present the user log-in screen.

3) Windows 10 "System Information" (MSINFO32.EXE) reports System Summary -> BIOS Mode value as UEFI.

4) The following procedures were performed using bios version 1.40, the current version posted by ASRock for the J4205-ITX.  I would be interested to know if this problem was resolved with the bios update series 1.50+1.60.  I have avoided installing the 1.50+1.60 bios updates since they were retracted by ASRock shortly after the March release.

5) With my J4205-ITX and HDMI LCD display the following three procedures can be repeated with the same outcomes.

***** Procedure A : Blank screen with flashing mouse pointer *****
1) Power-on LCD display (connected to J4205 HDMI port)
2) Power-on computer
3) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
4) Set CSM to "Disabled"
5) Save bios changes and exit
6) Power-off LCD display
7) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
8) Power-on LCD display
9) Windows 10 Start screen is shown
10) Perform Windows Restart
11) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
12) No Windows 10 Start screen is shown. The LCD display is blank with a flashing mouse pointer.

Note:
Accessing the computer using the Windows Remote Desktop client, from a remote computer, does show the Windows 10 user log-in screen.  Upon log-off from the Remote Desktop session, the LCD display, connected to the J4205 HDMI port, will then show the Windows Start screen.  Performing a Windows Restart, and entering bios setup, reveals that CSM has changed to "Enabled".
*****

***** Procedure B : Bios CSM configuration changes from Disabled to Enabled *****
1) Power-on LCD display (connected to J4205 HDMI port)
2) Power-on computer
3) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
4) Set CSM to "Disabled"
5) Save bios changes and exit
6) Power-off LCD display
7) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
8) Power-on LCD display
9) Windows 10 Start screen is shown
10) Perform Windows Restart
11) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
12) CSM has changed to "Enabled"
*****

***** Procedure C : Bios CSM configuration remains set to Disabled *****
1) Power-on LCD display (connected to J4205 HDMI port)
2) Power-on computer
3) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
4) Set CSM to "Disabled"
5) Save bios changes and exit
6) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
7) Windows 10 Start screen is shown
8) Perform Windows Restart
9) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
10) CSM remains set to "Disabled"
*****

I reported these findings to ASRock tech support on July 12th 2018.  As has been my experience with ASRock, I received the courtesy automated response informing me that tech support would contact me soon, but I have received no other correspondence since.  I would appreciate knowing if anyone can verify this problem with the J4205-ITX bios.

For those that would like to read more about my journey with the J4205-ITX HDMI port here is some additional insight.

I purchased my J4205-ITX board in November 2016.  I changed the bios so that Fast Boot and CSM(Compatibility Support Module) were disabled.  I then installed Windows 10 Pro which, at that time, was the Anniversary Update v1607.  The purpose for this computer was to have a low power, no fan, general purpose, desktop computer that I could also leave powered-on for file sharing.  I am using the J4205 HDMI port with a dual purpose LCD TV/monitor as the display.

Everything was working well until I started to discover that when I powered-on the LCD TV I would occasionally find the Windows 10 display was blank except for the mouse pointer, which would flash about every three seconds.  After some unexpected difficulty I eventually got the LCD display working and was able to review the Windows 10 event log.

It was in the Windows System log that I discovered repeated Warning entries during the time the LCD was blank.  The log entries indicated that Windows 10 was resetting the Intel video driver about every three seconds.   When the video driver was reset, this action caused the mouse pointer to flash, but this didn't explain why the LCD display would remain blank.  The logged error was Event Id 4101 with the message; Display driver igfx stopped responding and has successfully recovered.

This problem only occurred when using the Intel video driver.  When using the default Microsoft Basic Display Adapter driver the HDMI port functioned properly, but the limitations of this driver made using it for the long term impractical.  So on December 28th 2016 I submitted my first tech support request to ASRock concerning this problem.  I received the automated courtesy response informing me that I would be contacted soon.  Unfortunately I am still waiting.

Frustrated by the lack of assistance from ASRock I eventually joined the ASRock user forum.  There, in the Intel Motherboard forum, I found the thread titled "J4205-ITX HDMI output" where people were sharing similar frustrations with the HDMI port.  It wasn't until a recent post made by member "Gussie" that I found a clue that allowed me to finally isolate the cause for my HDMI problem.  Once I knew the cause I was able to develop some procedures to demonstrate the problem in a repeatable manner.

On July 12th 2018 I submitted my second tech support request to ASRock.  This time I was able to provide procedures that would allow for a repeatable demonstration of a flaw with the J4205 bios.  With this proof I thought ASRock would provide a quick confirmation of the problem and I would receive word about when a fix might be available.  Now, almost five weeks later, I have received no response other than the token automated courtesy response that I would be contacted soon.
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(2018-08-15, 23:01)biosflaw Wrote: I'm an ASRock J4205-ITX owner and tech support vagabond having wandered here from the ASRock Intel Motherboards forum where I was an active participant in the thread titled "J4205-ITX HDMI output".  Over time that thread gathered 97 comments filling 10 pages, but it has now slowly drifted into obscurity and currently resides on page six of the forum.  I have arrived at this forum with the hope that some other person with a J4205-ITX, and using Windows 10, might be able to confirm what I believe to be an anomaly in the J4205 bios that causes a blank display problem with the HDMI port.

What I have encountered is that if the bios setting "CSM(Compatibility Support Module)" was previously set to Disabled, and an OS restart occurs when the HDMI connected LCD display is powered-off, the CSM(Compatibility Support Module) setting is somehow being changed to Enabled without any user intervention.  Once the OS has loaded the LCD display will show a blank screen with a flashing mouse pointer rather than the expected Windows 10 Start screen.

Alternatively, if the OS restart occurs while the LCD display remains powered-on, the CSM(Compatibility Support Module) setting does not change and remains set to Disabled.  The HDMI connected LCD display will function as expected once the OS has loaded after the restart.  Below are the procedures I have performed to demonstrate the bios anomaly.  With my J4205-ITX these outcomes are repeatable.

Procedure Notes:
1) I use the notation "CSM" as an abbreviation for the "CSM(Compatibility Support Module)" bios configuration found at the bottom of the J4205-ITX bios setup "Boot" page.

2) I use the notation "Windows 10 Start screen" as the screen displayed by Windows 10 at start-up that shows the current date and time.  Pressing the "Enter" key, or left-clicking the mouse, will present the user log-in screen.

3) Windows 10 "System Information" (MSINFO32.EXE) reports System Summary -> BIOS Mode value as UEFI.

4) The following procedures were performed using bios version 1.40, the current version posted by ASRock for the J4205-ITX.  I would be interested to know if this problem was resolved with the bios update series 1.50+1.60.  I have avoided installing the 1.50+1.60 bios updates since they were retracted by ASRock shortly after the March release.

5) With my J4205-ITX and HDMI LCD display the following three procedures can be repeated with the same outcomes.

***** Procedure A : Blank screen with flashing mouse pointer *****
1) Power-on LCD display (connected to J4205 HDMI port)
2) Power-on computer
3) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
4) Set CSM to "Disabled"
5) Save bios changes and exit
6) Power-off LCD display
7) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
8) Power-on LCD display
9) Windows 10 Start screen is shown
10) Perform Windows Restart
11) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
12) No Windows 10 Start screen is shown. The LCD display is blank with a flashing mouse pointer.

Note:
Accessing the computer using the Windows Remote Desktop client, from a remote computer, does show the Windows 10 user log-in screen.  Upon log-off from the Remote Desktop session, the LCD display, connected to the J4205 HDMI port, will then show the Windows Start screen.  Performing a Windows Restart, and entering bios setup, reveals that CSM has changed to "Enabled".
*****

***** Procedure B : Bios CSM configuration changes from Disabled to Enabled *****
1) Power-on LCD display (connected to J4205 HDMI port)
2) Power-on computer
3) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
4) Set CSM to "Disabled"
5) Save bios changes and exit
6) Power-off LCD display
7) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
8) Power-on LCD display
9) Windows 10 Start screen is shown
10) Perform Windows Restart
11) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
12) CSM has changed to "Enabled"
*****

***** Procedure C : Bios CSM configuration remains set to Disabled *****
1) Power-on LCD display (connected to J4205 HDMI port)
2) Power-on computer
3) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
4) Set CSM to "Disabled"
5) Save bios changes and exit
6) Wait for Windows to load (approximately one minute)
7) Windows 10 Start screen is shown
8) Perform Windows Restart
9) Enter bios setup (F2 key)
10) CSM remains set to "Disabled"
*****

I reported these findings to ASRock tech support on July 12th 2018.  As has been my experience with ASRock, I received the courtesy automated response informing me that tech support would contact me soon, but I have received no other correspondence since.  I would appreciate knowing if anyone can verify this problem with the J4205-ITX bios.

For those that would like to read more about my journey with the J4205-ITX HDMI port here is some additional insight.

I purchased my J4205-ITX board in November 2016.  I changed the bios so that Fast Boot and CSM(Compatibility Support Module) were disabled.  I then installed Windows 10 Pro which, at that time, was the Anniversary Update v1607.  The purpose for this computer was to have a low power, no fan, general purpose, desktop computer that I could also leave powered-on for file sharing.  I am using the J4205 HDMI port with a dual purpose LCD TV/monitor as the display.

Everything was working well until I started to discover that when I powered-on the LCD TV I would occasionally find the Windows 10 display was blank except for the mouse pointer, which would flash about every three seconds.  After some unexpected difficulty I eventually got the LCD display working and was able to review the Windows 10 event log.

It was in the Windows System log that I discovered repeated Warning entries during the time the LCD was blank.  The log entries indicated that Windows 10 was resetting the Intel video driver about every three seconds.   When the video driver was reset, this action caused the mouse pointer to flash, but this didn't explain why the LCD display would remain blank.  The logged error was Event Id 4101 with the message; Display driver igfx stopped responding and has successfully recovered.

This problem only occurred when using the Intel video driver.  When using the default Microsoft Basic Display Adapter driver the HDMI port functioned properly, but the limitations of this driver made using it for the long term impractical.  So on December 28th 2016 I submitted my first tech support request to ASRock concerning this problem.  I received the automated courtesy response informing me that I would be contacted soon.  Unfortunately I am still waiting.

Frustrated by the lack of assistance from ASRock I eventually joined the ASRock user forum.  There, in the Intel Motherboard forum, I found the thread titled "J4205-ITX HDMI output" where people were sharing similar frustrations with the HDMI port.  It wasn't until a recent post made by member "Gussie" that I found a clue that allowed me to finally isolate the cause for my HDMI problem.  Once I knew the cause I was able to develop some procedures to demonstrate the problem in a repeatable manner.

On July 12th 2018 I submitted my second tech support request to ASRock.  This time I was able to provide procedures that would allow for a repeatable demonstration of a flaw with the J4205 bios.  With this proof I thought ASRock would provide a quick confirmation of the problem and I would receive word about when a fix might be available.  Now, almost five weeks later, I have received no response other than the token automated courtesy response that I would be contacted soon.
I have a J4205-ITX on 1.60 bios and my CSM setting always stays disabled. Have encountered similar problems in the beginning but not since bios 1.30 and upwards. However i use Libreelec currently, no chance to test Win10 right now. 
What happens after the procedure C when windows is loaded and working and you restart you LCD? Still blinking cursor and black screen?
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I think I am the only one that had zero issues with J4250 ITX since 1.5 years now :-)
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
Reply
(2018-08-18, 21:27)fritsch Wrote: I think I am the only one that had zero issues with J4250 ITX since 1.5 years now :-)
 Well it's at least two of us then Smile

I have also been using it as the family HTPC daily for a year and a half with no issues - all our day to day TV content comes via kodi. I learned that 4k/30fps is good enough in practice - more so: 99% of the 4k content we consume is from netflix which runs natively in the TV, not in the htpc (and that content is not 60fps either). The only pain with the system was in the early days when messing around with the firmware, needlessly in the end; I believe i got it to v1.60 and I had to boot in windows for it but I don't even remember exactly.

Now I'm looking forward to Leia to get HEVC10b finally working 'out of the box' (I use kodi on ubuntu, and on fedora prior to this). And of course to enable retro gaming. Kids will love it. This is still the perfect system for the family living room, it seems it has several more years ahead.
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There are some rough edges still, but - there is an unwritten law in kodi world: If you use same hardware Fernetmenta uses  - you can be 100% sure that the best kodi is able to achieve will work on your hardware :-)
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
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First I'd like to thank those that took the time to read and respond to my unusually lengthy post.  I know the purpose of this forum is to offer support to users of Kodi and not disillusioned ASRock J4205-ITX owners.

Dr.Feelgood
After performing Procedure "C", I can power-off the LCD and then power it back on sometime later and the display will work as expected.

My guess is that most Kodi users, or those that don't have HDMI problems with the J4205, are using some form of Linux (Ubuntu, Libreelec).  This would seem to indicate the problem is most likely some type of anomaly with the ASRock bios and the Intel HD Graphics 505 video driver for Windows 10.

As I mentioned in my original post, I never had the HDMI problem with the Microsoft Basic Display Adapter driver, it only happened with the Intel driver installed.  Much later, when I discovered the problem where the bios CSM setting would change, I was never able, or should say that I haven't had the ambition, to switch back to the Microsoft driver to see how the bios CSM setting behaved with that driver.

It is not that I haven't made attempts to switch back to the Microsoft driver, but one of the attractive features of Windows 10 is that it seems to know what is best, so it would dutifully reinstall the Intel driver upon restart.  With Windows 10 Pro there is a Group Policy change that can be made to disable this behavior for a specific driver, but it was more hassle to do than I had ambition.

It should come as no surprise that when I connect my LCD display to the J4205 DVI port, using a DVI to HDMI conversion cable, I experience the same problem.  At one point I thought there was a possibility that, during bios startup, maybe the bios does an inspection of the three video ports.  First it inspects the HDMI port, followed by the DVI port, and lastly defaults to the (legacy) VGA port if the first two devices are not detected.  I thought this might explain why CSM was changed to Enabled during boot whenever the LCD display was powered-off.  However, after booting, I connected a VGA display and there was no signal on that port.

During another attempt for some type of workaround, I entered the bios, set CSM to Enabled, and then set "Launch PXE OpROM Policy", "Launch Storage OpROM Policy", and "Launch Video OpROM Policy" to "UEFI Only".  Unfortunately the same HDMI blank display problem occurred.  After performing Procedures "A" and "B" I found the setting "Launch Video OpROM Policy" was somehow changed to "Legacy Only", while the other two settings remained set to "UEFI Only".

I'm pondering the installation of bios versions 1.5+1.6 to see if these offer any solution to this problem.  I've been hesitant to do so since ASRock retracted these bios updates shortly after they were released, and that occurred a frustratingly long five months ago.  I also feel that at least I know how to resolve the HDMI problem as it currently exists.

Since ASRock offers no release notes with their bios updates I have no insight into what should be fixed and what new problems could occur.  Add to that the absence of any tech support from ASRock and I could be left with an out of warranty board and no way out.

A last act of desperation would be to browse my way over to NewEgg, where I purchased the board, and post a rather harsh review of my experience with this board.  I feel that this is something I would prefer not to do, at least until I can confirm that other Windows 10 users are able to duplicate the problem I described.

I made a similar post to the ASRock forum but, as I wrote in my original post here, members on that forum appear to have lost interest in the problem.  Maybe those forum members feel ASRock has abandon Apollo Lake so they have found salvation in J5005 and J4105 Gemini Lake boards, or Linux perhaps. Smile
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it's safe to go to 1.50 and than 1.60 but just don't do it from Windows, i bricked my board by doing so and needed to flash it with external bios programmer ...
Have you updated the firmware of the LPSCON? I believe mine is on 1.72 , read earlier posts here
If your Scenario C works i don't see what is the problem anymore? 
In the past 10 years i have never bought any hardware that have worked flawlessly without any bugs, regardless if it's Apple or Nvidia or my brand new car ...
You just need to lower your acceptance criteria Smile
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Hi Dr.Feelgood, I hope you had a pleasant weekend and thanks for the reply.  Since it would appear that I have few options I may push ahead with the 1.5+1.6 bios updates to see if there is any improvement with the problem I documented.  Perhaps I would feel more comfortable installing the updates if I knew why ASRock first changed the bios installation procedure to include only Instant Flash, to prevent the bricking, and then a few days later ASRock completely removed the updates from general distribution.

Since that day in March ASRock has released 40+ bios updates for other products, but has failed to release a revised update for the J4205.  This makes me suspicious that other problems were discovered and remain unsolved.  If I do decide to install these updates I hope they won't lead to new anomalies where I spend months trying to understand what caused them.

If it isn't apparent, I tend to be apprehensive when software and firmware updates are released so I will usually wait on the sidelines for a week or two until I know other people have successfully installed them.  I will monitor support forums searching for reports of any problems caused by the updates, which is how I avoided bricking my J4205 with bios 1.5+1.6.  I see you have the 1.5+1.6 battle scars, one of those I read about that had to resort to an external eeprom programmer to revive a bricked J4205.  As an update pacifist I tip my hat to you for your gallant effort.

I did install LSPCON firmware 1.66 some time ago.  Based on posts made to this thread, specifically page 117, I got the impression that it was best to stay with version 1.66 and not install 1.71.  I read that some Kodi forum members had problems with the J4205 and LSPCON firmware 1.71, and had a desire to switch back to 1.66.  Intel had removed the link to version 1.66 so member fritsch made a dropbox link available where 1.66 could be downloaded.  That is how I was able to install LSPCON 1.66.  I never bothered to install any other LSPCON update beyond 1.66 since it did nothing to solve the problem I was experiencing.

I would like to emphasize that I viewed the Intel LSPCON firmware updates as not being officially supported by ASRock for their Apollo Lake boards.  Using these updates seemed to be merely a backchannel attempt by a few tech savvy Kodi users to compensate for the lack of official support from ASRock for the various HDMI problems some Kodi members were experiencing.

I know if I purchased a new car and discovered the digital gauges were blank each time I started the car, I would expect the manufacturer to acknowledge the problem and issue a recall to fix it.  I would not expect that I would need to resort to an aftermarket solution provided by AutoZone.  Now if the digital gauges were blank because I accidently dimmed the backlight down to nothing, or if a fuse blew, I hope that I would have the common sense to check for obvious causes before contacting the manufacturer, but I still believe the manufacturer should respond to the problem if I did report it.  Just sayin' Smile

"If your Scenario C works i don't see what is the problem anymore?"
As I mentioned in my original post, and as demonstrated using Procedures "A" and "B", the blank screen problem happens when Windows 10 restarts while the HDMI connected LCD display is powered-off.  I built this fanless low power computer so I could leave it powered-on 24/7/365 to share files.  It also functions as a general purpose computer that I use from time to time.  As you may or may not be aware, Windows 10 has a tendency to automatically restart after installing patches or for other maintenance tasks.  I have Windows 10 configured to perform these automatic restarts during the early morning hours, when the computer is idle, and the LCD display is powered-off, but I never know when these restarts will occur.

Many times I would power-on the LCD display only to discover a blank screen with a flashing mouse pointer.  I never could determine why this was happening and, once it did happen, additional restarts would still leave me with a blank LCD display and a flashing mouse pointer.  So I was left to ponder, was this a problem with Windows?  Was it a problem with my LCD display or HDMI cable?  Was it a problem with the motherboard hardware?  Was it an Intel video driver problem perhaps?

Another frustrating new feature of Windows 10 is that the old reliable F8 key access to safe mode has been neutered making this mode of operation nearly impossible to access for the purpose of troubleshooting.  From what I read, entering Windows 10 safe mode must now be done from within the Windows desktop environment or, the safe mode option will be presented as a start-up selection only after three Windows, hardware lock-up induced, restarts.  Obviously a LCD blank screen prevents access to the Windows desktop, and apparently restarting from a blank screen caused by an Intel video driver "recover" is not considered a hardware lock-up by Windows, so accessing Windows 10 safe mode was quite difficult to do.

In my original post I mentioned that I eventually found the Windows event log had entries that showed there was an issue with the Intel video driver, but I wondered if the driver was truly the cause or just a symptom of some other problem.  I tried installing different versions of Intel video drivers without any improvement.  Several times I did fresh installations of Windows 10, as well as installing different versions of Windows 10, still not a solution.  As ASRock released a few bios updates I would install those, but the problem persisted.  I submitted the tech support request to ASRock where I described the problem, but I received no response.  Eventually I found threads on the ASRock and Kodi forums where I noticed other people were experiencing problems with the J4205 HDMI port and having varying degrees of success at solving them.

So almost two years since I purchased the board, and after a lot of trial and error, I have finally discovered this unexplained quirk with the bios CSM setting that has a direct impact on my HDMI blank display problem.  It would be nice to know if this problem could be fixed, or at least have some logical explanation why the CSM bios setting automatically changes from Disabled to Enabled during a Windows restart whenever the LCD display is powered-off.

Over the years I have probably built a dozen computers from the ground up.  Some were gaming computers while others were just general purpose computers that had special requirements.   I too have experienced the occasional unexplained anomaly that was often solved with a bios or driver update.  I have also sent the occasional tech support request to other Taiwanese companies and always received a prompt and courteous response that either acknowledged or offered a solution to the problem.  My experience with ASRock has certainly been the unfortunate outlier.

As you implied, maybe this is the end of the road where I either choose to live with this problem or explore other motherboard options.  Of course the Windows 10 license hardware lock-in doesn't make the switch to a new board an easy solution to accept, but that is a story best left for another lenghty post. Smile
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most stable and newest version of millhouse? and where to get? i used to have it bookmarked but i lost it
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(2018-09-06, 00:00)leo5111 Wrote: most stable and newest version of millhouse? and where to get? i used to have it bookmarked but i lost it
 i have been using these lately, all of them have worked fine, installed the latest today and it's running well
https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=298462 

Install the 8.25 first http://releases.libreelec.tv/LibreELEC-G...2.5.img.gz and update with the latest .tar http://milhouse.libreelec.tv/builds/mast...3c73c3.tar from millhouse
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i have a intel nuc apollo with a 120 gigs ssd&16 gig ram its the model BoxNUC6CAYH im 99% sure it wont let you do anything below win 10 but what id lkike to do is dualboot win10  with a libre-elec so at boot i can choose which to go into
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(2018-09-10, 04:00)leo5111 Wrote: i have a intel nuc apollo with a 120 gigs ssd&16 gig ram its the model BoxNUC6CAYH im 99% sure it wont let you do anything below win 10 but what id lkike to do is dualboot win10  with a libre-elec so at boot i can choose which to go into
 you can always run LE from USB stick or SD card. I don't think dual boot is easy with LE.
LE is very light so running from USB or SD works like charm. You will need 2 sticks/card, one for installation and on as alternative boot media. Than just choose from bios which one to boot from.
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In fact it's quite easy. The Problem is Windows - it assumes only itself on the disk. But there are howtos to accomplish that: https://www.technikaffe.de/anleitung-375...__openelec (german only, but google translate might be enough)
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
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