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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
(2019-06-21, 04:53)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-06-18, 22:41)bizuka Wrote: well i'm not a specialist, but i have a 905x and a Rock64.
the devs on the coreelec forum told me that the 922x outputs exactly (in terms of image processing) like the 905x so.. 80bucks for nothing? only for 1080p soft decoding damn that was a good marketing strategy by them! Devil
tested on a samsung ks7000 connected to a marantz 6011.

That is not what the CE devs have said at all.

I have a swag of ARM devices to compare the new ARM Mali G-52 GPU in the N2 with.
Picture processing and image output quality is better with this new GPU vs the pretty old ARM Mali-450 GPU in the AML S905 series chipsets.
The S912 picture quality is better vs the older S905 too.

The very noticeable thing is S922X vs S905 chipset speed. It's noticeably snappier and smoother.

For existing users upgrading, is it worth it ?
Well only they can answer.

For new device purchasers, I don't see why you would buy old tech, unless it was dirt cheap or had very good specialised after sales support. 
indeed i agree with you
and since you are a dev and you "play" with a lot of boards here it goes:
should i go for a cheap rock64 (it is my board atm) or should i go for a rock64pro in termos of hw decoding capabilities will they ouput the same (specially in 4k HDR) or i will only benefit of better software processing and core speeds?
the same question goes for rock64pro and odroid N2 since they have the same price tag! will the output the same? did some of these boards have better "picture quality" (hw decoding) whitout any software upscaling
what are your thoughts about these 2 boards in a Libreelec/Coreelec environment?
are there any other cotenders?
Best Regards and thanks for your opinion!
Reply
So I still feel we don't have definitive answers to these questions.


1. Is the only way to output MaxFall/MaxCLL using the 4.9 kernel ?

2. Does CoreELEC or LibreELEC use the 4.9 kernel for s905 devices ? If not are there any plans for this and would MaxFall/MaxCLL output work ?

3. Does CoreELEC currently use the 4.9 kernel for the odroid N2 ?

4. @Sam.Nazarko  said that beta's or new stack of OMSC are outputting MaxFALL/MaxCLL on the Vero4k+ (S905D) and provided photo evidence. What is the new stack, just the 4.9 kernel ?

4. @wesk05 said the N2 running CoreELEC does output MaxFALL/MaxCLL but where did this info come from ? Does anyone have any proof ?

5. Will the s912 devices "ever" be able to use the 4.9 kernel ?

6. What about Rock64 and Rock64 Pro ? Do they use the same kernels ? Do they output MaxCLL/MaxFALL and or HDR10+ ?

7. Is HDR10+ a possibility on the N2 with CoreELEC in the future ?


I currently have a s912 device running CoreELEC, but if I am not getting the best picture possible I will happily upgrade.
The question is to what ?
I don't want to spend near on £100 for a N2 if it will need replacing soon because it can't do something that the Rock64 Pro or Vero4k can.

Appreciate anyone who can answer some or all of the questions.

Thank You
Rob
Reply
(2019-06-21, 09:19)djnice Wrote:
(2019-06-21, 03:07)wrxtasy Wrote: For picture post processing, the ARM Mali G-52 GPU in the N2 is a ripper fior the price paid. It's Anti aliasing (removing jaggies) is even better than the ARM class leader the Apple TV 4K.
This statement from S922X datasheet: "Smart sharpness with SuperScaler technology including de-contouring, de-ring, LTI, CTI, dejaggy, peaking"
But in CoreELEC, the SuperScaler is disabled. Any other post processing working in the N2 which affects the picture quality? 
I compared it with the S912 and didn't notice the difference in PQ.  
I think it's probably a good thing that all that processing is disabled, at least by default.  Most of the processing in that list is designed purely to artificially 'enhance' pictures (which in reality often just add more artefacts).  It's a bit like Noise Reduction and Sharpness on TVs - best left disabled or at minimum.
Reply
(2019-06-22, 02:16)treboR2Robert Wrote: So I still feel we don't have definitive answers to these questions.


1. Is the only way to output MaxFall/MaxCLL using the 4.9 kernel ?

2. Does CoreELEC or LibreELEC use the 4.9 kernel for s905 devices ? If not are there any plans for this and would MaxFall/MaxCLL output work ?

3. Does CoreELEC currently use the 4.9 kernel for the odroid N2 ?

4. @Sam.Nazarko  said that beta's or new stack of OMSC are outputting MaxFALL/MaxCLL on the Vero4k+ (S905D) and provided photo evidence. What is the new stack, just the 4.9 kernel ?

4. @wesk05 said the N2 running CoreELEC does output MaxFALL/MaxCLL but where did this info come from ? Does anyone have any proof ?

5. Will the s912 devices "ever" be able to use the 4.9 kernel ?

6. What about Rock64 and Rock64 Pro ? Do they use the same kernels ? Do they output MaxCLL/MaxFALL and or HDR10+ ?

7. Is HDR10+ a possibility on the N2 with CoreELEC in the future ?


I currently have a s912 device running CoreELEC, but if I am not getting the best picture possible I will happily upgrade.
The question is to what ?
I don't want to spend near on £100 for a N2 if it will need replacing soon because it can't do something that the Rock64 Pro or Vero4k can.

Appreciate anyone who can answer some or all of the questions.

Thank You
Rob
A bit more complex than just 4.9. Kernel has deviated significantly from the vendor kernel, i.e. what you'd find on N2. Autoswitching and a few other bits are still broken in those kernels.

AMCodec is also a dead-end now and support has been dropped in Kodi, so the focus is on the proper approach via v4l2/gbm. Particularly important as we have long term support commitments for our devices. 

Sam
Reply
(2019-06-22, 02:16)treboR2Robert Wrote: 4. @wesk05 said the N2 running CoreELEC does output MaxFALL/MaxCLL but where did this info come from ? Does anyone have any proof ?
Here is the proof. The mediainfo of "Samsung HDR Wonderland" with MaxFALL/MaxCLL values applied after video analysis (the original file has 0/0 MaxFALL/MaxCLL values) and a screenshot from HDFury Vertex while playing the video clip on Odroid N2.

Mediainfo: https://pastebin.com/r6YYAMWf

Screenshot:
Image
Reply
(2019-06-21, 09:19)djnice Wrote:
(2019-06-21, 03:07)wrxtasy Wrote: For picture post processing, the ARM Mali G-52 GPU in the N2 is a ripper fior the price paid. It's Anti aliasing (removing jaggies) is even better than the ARM class leader the Apple TV 4K.
This statement from S922X datasheet: "Smart sharpness with SuperScaler technology including de-contouring, de-ring, LTI, CTI, dejaggy, peaking"
But in CoreELEC, the SuperScaler is disabled. Any other post processing working in the N2 which affects the picture quality? 
I compared it with the S912 and didn't notice the difference in PQ.

Until I see issues with picture outputs I have re-enabled SuperScaler in CE's autostart.sh (very easily done)
It's nice to have such flexibility Smile

Reply
(2019-06-22, 05:43)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-06-21, 09:19)djnice Wrote:
(2019-06-21, 03:07)wrxtasy Wrote: For picture post processing, the ARM Mali G-52 GPU in the N2 is a ripper fior the price paid. It's Anti aliasing (removing jaggies) is even better than the ARM class leader the Apple TV 4K.
This statement from S922X datasheet: "Smart sharpness with SuperScaler technology including de-contouring, de-ring, LTI, CTI, dejaggy, peaking"
But in CoreELEC, the SuperScaler is disabled. Any other post processing working in the N2 which affects the picture quality? 
I compared it with the S912 and didn't notice the difference in PQ.

Until I see issues with picture outputs I have re-enabled SuperScaler in CE's autostart.sh (very easily done)
It's nice to have such flexibility Smile

I think this is the reason the superscalar was disabled. It creates a cartoon like effect.

https://discourse.coreelec.org/t/odroid-...s/4560/319
Reply
(2019-06-22, 03:33)wesk05 Wrote:
(2019-06-22, 02:16)treboR2Robert Wrote: 4. @wesk05 said the N2 running CoreELEC does output MaxFALL/MaxCLL but where did this info come from ? Does anyone have any proof ?
Here is the proof. The mediainfo of "Samsung HDR Wonderland" with MaxFALL/MaxCLL values applied after video analysis (the original file has 0/0 MaxFALL/MaxCLL values) and a screenshot from HDFury Vertex while playing the video clip on Odroid N2.

Mediainfo: https://pastebin.com/r6YYAMWf

Screenshot:
Image

That's great thank you
Reply
(2019-06-22, 02:34)Sam.Nazarko Wrote:
(2019-06-22, 02:16)treboR2Robert Wrote: So I still feel we don't have definitive answers to these questions.


1. Is the only way to output MaxFall/MaxCLL using the 4.9 kernel ?

2. Does CoreELEC or LibreELEC use the 4.9 kernel for s905 devices ? If not are there any plans for this and would MaxFall/MaxCLL output work ?

3. Does CoreELEC currently use the 4.9 kernel for the odroid N2 ?

4. @Sam.Nazarko  said that beta's or new stack of OMSC are outputting MaxFALL/MaxCLL on the Vero4k+ (S905D) and provided photo evidence. What is the new stack, just the 4.9 kernel ?

4. @wesk05 said the N2 running CoreELEC does output MaxFALL/MaxCLL but where did this info come from ? Does anyone have any proof ?

5. Will the s912 devices "ever" be able to use the 4.9 kernel ?

6. What about Rock64 and Rock64 Pro ? Do they use the same kernels ? Do they output MaxCLL/MaxFALL and or HDR10+ ?

7. Is HDR10+ a possibility on the N2 with CoreELEC in the future ?


I currently have a s912 device running CoreELEC, but if I am not getting the best picture possible I will happily upgrade.
The question is to what ?
I don't want to spend near on £100 for a N2 if it will need replacing soon because it can't do something that the Rock64 Pro or Vero4k can.

Appreciate anyone who can answer some or all of the questions.

Thank You
Rob
A bit more complex than just 4.9. Kernel has deviated significantly from the vendor kernel, i.e. what you'd find on N2. Autoswitching and a few other bits are still broken in those kernels.

AMCodec is also a dead-end now and support has been dropped in Kodi, so the focus is on the proper approach via v4l2/gbm. Particularly important as we have long term support commitments for our devices. 

Sam

Thanks for the reply.
I think you just created a tonne more questions though lol.
Such a headache this stuff !

Your vero4k+ software does indeed sound VERY promising but after living with a s912 for the last year or so and seeing how slow / laggy it can be, I find it hard to justify buying a less powerful s905d vero4k+.

Do you plan on doing a vero4k++ or something with a s922 device ?

Thanks
Reply
(2019-06-22, 02:16)treboR2Robert Wrote: 6. What about Rock64 and Rock64 Pro ? Do they use the same kernels ? Do they output MaxCLL/MaxFALL and or HDR10+ ?
Only EOTF metadata for now: https://forum.libreelec.tv/thread/14255-...post108787
Reply
(2019-06-22, 02:16)treboR2Robert Wrote: So I still feel we don't have definitive answers to these questions.

1. Is the only way to output MaxFall/MaxCLL using the 4.9 kernel ?
Yes and only on confirmed (by HDMI analysis) on S922X devices like the ODROID N2 running CoreELEC.

Quote:2. Does CoreELEC or LibreELEC use the 4.9 kernel for s905 devices ? If not are there any plans for this and would MaxFall/MaxCLL output work ?
CoreELEC S922X devices like the ODROID N2 exclusively use the AMLogic v4.9 Linux Kernel.
LibreELEC is transitioning all supported devices to a mainline v4.1x+ Kernel, which will need a bunch of work for full HDR support.
LE might get there with full support by next year sometime. Stable HDR Kodi support for Kodi v19 M also has to be added.

Quote:3. Does CoreELEC currently use the 4.9 kernel for the odroid N2 ?
Yes & HardKernel are also providing ongoing Kernel support which is always welcome by developers.

Quote:4. @Sam.Nazarko  said that beta's or new stack of OMSC are outputting MaxFALL/MaxCLL on the Vero4k+ (S905D) and provided photo evidence. What is the new stack, just the 4.9 kernel ?
I will let Sam explain, he has some work to do to transition Vero 4K's to the v4.9 Kernel. He might even skip it and go straight to Mainline. I don't know.

Quote:4. @wesk05 said the N2 running CoreELEC does output MaxFALL/MaxCLL but where did this info come from ? Does anyone have any proof ?
Confirmed and already proven by @wesk05

Quote:5. Will the s912 devices "ever" be able to use the 4.9 kernel ?
At the moment I doubt it.
CE AML developers will be concentrating on S922X. Maybe S905X3 or S905D3 devices. Big Maybe.
LE devs. might get HDR working properly on S912 with a mainline HDR supported Kernel next year.
LE S912 will be an even snappier Linux Kodi device when that happens when it also uses, stable open source Linux ARM T-series GPU drivers.

Quote:6. What about Rock64 and Rock64 Pro ? Do they use the same kernels ? Do they output MaxCLL/MaxFALL and or HDR10+ ?
They will be using a mainline Kernel.
Correct Rockchip HDR Metadata output is incomplete, unless there have been very recent improvements. No idea about HDR10+

Quote:7. Is HDR10+ a possibility on the N2 with CoreELEC in the future ?
Possibly.
HDR10+ content is virtually non existant in the wild tho. which is why such support has not been prioritised.
Prime Video might have some HDR10+ content, but you need to use a video copy protected streaming App.

Quote:I currently have a s912 device running CoreELEC, but if I am not getting the best picture possible I will happily upgrade.
The question is to what ?
I don't want to spend near on £100 for a N2 if it will need replacing soon because it can't do something that the Rock64 Pro or Vero4k can.
The ARM G-52 GPU in the S922X devices is more powerful and feature packed vs the older ARM Mali-T series or even older Mali-450 GPU's.
I've not seen a new mid range or top spec ARM GPU's go backwards in picture quality or performance vs previous years if correct ARM (Linux) GPU drivers are used.

The CE Kodi Leia S912 combo is pretty snappy if you tweak the GPU MHz in CE Kodi System settings and disable Kodi's dirty regions.
However Chipset cooling can be a problem with cheap AMLogic Android S9xx devices once you push them hard.
My U9 with class leading passive chipset cooling is excellent, but it's relatively expensive.



As per post #1 of this thread if you want complete HDR Metadata output you need to look at devices from this list 2823690 (post)

OR wait till sometime next year for stable - mainline HDR Linux Kernel, GPU driver and Linux Kodi v19 M HDR support.

W.

Reply
(2019-06-22, 09:01)wrxtasy Wrote:
Quote:4. @Sam.Nazarko  said that beta's or new stack of OMSC are outputting MaxFALL/MaxCLL on the Vero4k+ (S905D) and provided photo evidence. What is the new stack, just the 4.9 kernel ?
I will let Sam explain, he has some work to do to transition Vero 4K's to the v4.9 Kernel. He might even skip it and go straight to Mainline. I don't know. 
I have covered it above.
4.9 first then 4.19. 

V4L2/GBM supported on both. 

Sam
Reply
(2019-06-22, 07:39)djnice Wrote:
(2019-06-22, 02:16)treboR2Robert Wrote: 6. What about Rock64 and Rock64 Pro ? Do they use the same kernels ? Do they output MaxCLL/MaxFALL and or HDR10+ ?
Only EOTF metadata for now: https://forum.libreelec.tv/thread/14255-...post108787 

Thanks, so it looks like Rock64 is a bit of a dead end, I have read a few comments on other forums about them not being very helpful aswell.

Stark contrast to what I have heard about Hard Kernel, they seem to do a lot.
Reply
@wrxtasy 

Thank you for the very detailed reply, I am slowly understanding more and more.

So confirmed by HDMI analysis

1.  Odroid N2 (s922) running CoreELEC outputs MaxFALL/MaxCLL metadata
2.  Vero 4k+ (s905d) running the OSMC "new stack" (whatever that is) outputs MaxFALL/MaxCLL metadata

Kernel

1.  The 3.14 kernel does not support outputting metadata like MaxFALL/MaxCLL

2.  The 4.9 kernel is a propriety kernel made by AMLOGIC just for their s905 and s922 devices. And they did not make it for the s912.

3.  The 3.14 and 4.19/4.1x kernels are standard linux kernels ?

4.  The 4.19/4.1x kernel "does" support outputting metadata like MaxFALL/MaxCLL

5.  The 4.9 kernel used by CoreELEC on the Odroid N2 has been modified by either CoreELEC or Hard Kernel to better support colour space autoswitching and other things.

6.  The s912 "may" or "may not" be able to output HDR metadata like MaxFALL/MaxCLL when or if someone gets the 4.19/4.1x kernel working on it next year.

Does all that sound about right ?

My s912

I have a TX92 and I have already enabled the option to overclock the GPU and also set it to use the "performance" governor.

As you say it had major problems with heat, so I cracked it open and installed a better heatsink and a small fan and now it runs pretty cool even under full load but can still suffer lag and general slowness with heavier skins.

Conclusion

At this time the best possible solution is probably a Odroid N2 running CoreELEC or maybe a Vero4k+ running the "new stack" with light weight skins.

Is this as good as it gets for standard HDR10 rips, or is there other stuff that is not yet possible ? like MaxRob/MaxRobert or whatever lol.

Some extra questions

Kodi says it no longer supports "AMCODEC" but is it still used in CoreELEC and OSMC ?

Is the "V4L2/GBM" that @Sam.Nazarko  mentioned a replacement for AMCODEC ?


Sorry for keeping on, I am just trying to understand it all.

Thanks again
Rob
Reply
(2019-06-23, 01:03)Sam.Nazarko Wrote:
(2019-06-22, 09:01)wrxtasy Wrote:
Quote:4. @Sam.Nazarko  said that beta's or new stack of OMSC are outputting MaxFALL/MaxCLL on the Vero4k+ (S905D) and provided photo evidence. What is the new stack, just the 4.9 kernel ?
I will let Sam explain, he has some work to do to transition Vero 4K's to the v4.9 Kernel. He might even skip it and go straight to Mainline. I don't know.  
I have covered it above.
4.9 first then 4.19. 

V4L2/GBM supported on both. 

Sam 

Thanks Sam,

Unfortunately I am not that clued up on any of that "yet"

What is V4L2 and what is GBM ? I googled it and it said that it has to do with video capturing from webcams and tv tuners etc..
Will that help with playback of HDR stuff too ?

So the current stable vero4k+ software uses the 3.14 kernel and "cannot" output MaxFALL/MaxCLL?
And the "new stack" uses the 4.9 kernel and "can" output MaxFALL/MaxCLL?

Is this "new stack" available for vero4k+ owners to use ?

If everything works ok on 4.9 why are you planning on going to 4.19 ?

Thank you
Rob
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