[Topken]

Hmm

[wrxtasy]

Will the new Shield do player led DV?

Yes all these App streaming DolbyVision capable media players like Apple TV 4K, FireTV 4K / Cube & 2019 Shield all use single layer - player led DV profile 5 for streaming.

A lot of the cheap (and not so cheap in the case of Sony) 4K HDR DV TV’s also implement - player led DV - only as well.

The exceptions are LG and the 2019 Panasonic’s OLED’s that get the full Monty - TV led - DolbyVision treatment, and they also produce superior DV picture output as a result.

[DNKK]

The more info that comes out about the new shield 2019 the more idiotic the decision of not increasing the ram and storage looks like. Increasing the ram to 4gb and the storage to 32-64gb would have cost a few dollars more 2019 device seems shackled because of lack of ram and storage.

[noggin]

The exceptions are LG and the 2019 Panasonic’s OLED’s that get the full Monty - TV led - DolbyVision treatment, and they also produce superior DV picture output as a result. 

What's the basis for that ? Isn't the difference between player-led and TV-led DV just the different routes that metadata takes? In TV-led (which is backwards compatible with HDMI implementations that otherwise only support static HDR metadata) the DV metadata is 'hidden' in the active video signal through tunnelling (which means the TV has to process the incoming video via DV-aware hardware to detect and extract the metadata), and some players may also have to be able to embed the metadata within the active video (presumably whilst it merges the dual HDR10 and DV enhancement video streams?).

With player-led DV the metadata is extracted from the DV video stream (or enhancement layer in dual stream UHD Blu-Ray ?), in the player, and sent separately over HDMI using HDMI's dynamic metadata pathways that were added in later. As a result the TV has no requirement to process the HDMI video signal to extract the metadata, as it is supplied using HDMI standardised signalling pathways (rather than using a tunnelling hack?)

What aspects of player-led vs TV-led metadata introduces a quality difference for the two routes? Or am I missing something obvious?

AIUI TV-led DV was always an interim system Dolby introduced to bypass the lack of progress in HDMI supporting dynamic HDR metadata?

[wrxtasy]

The exceptions are LG and the 2019 Panasonic’s OLED’s that get the full Monty - TV led - DolbyVision treatment, and they also produce superior DV picture output as a result. 

What's the basis for that ?

I though the same as you initially, but after viewing and listening to numerous 2019 DV capable OLED TV tests from professional TV calibrator guys like @Vincent_Teoh from HDTVtest.co.uk
Who is saying numerous times - TV led DV (LG & 2019 Panasonic) - is superior to - Player led DV (Sony) - when implemented in an OLED TV.

No idea what the diff is or why. Maybe it's DV Firmware bugs or limitations in older, cheaper hardware Sony are still using internally.

It's a bit of a moot point anyway because Sony OLED's when I went shopping recently were consistently 1/3 more expensive again vs the LG and Panasonics OLED's.

[noggin]

The exceptions are LG and the 2019 Panasonic’s OLED’s that get the full Monty - TV led - DolbyVision treatment, and they also produce superior DV picture output as a result. 

What's the basis for that ?    

I though the same as you initially, but after viewing and listening to numerous 2019 DV capable OLED TV tests from professional TV calibrator guys like @Vincent_Teoh from HDTVtest.co.uk
Who is saying numerous times saying - TV led DV (LG & 2019 Panasonic) - is superior to - player led DV (Sony) - when implemented in an OLED TV.

No idea what the diff is or why. Maybe it's DV Firmware bugs or limitations in older, cheaper hardware Sony are still using internally.

It's a bit of a moot point anyway because Sony OLED's when I went shopping recently were consistently 1/3 more expensive again vs the LG and Panasonics OLED's.    

I'm always a bit cautious in reviews of TVs online - including Vincent Teoh - since nobody spotted a massive type-fault in the XE900/900XE series Sony HDR UHD sets released a few years ago where pairs of frames (on i25/p50, i29.97/p59.94 content) were repeated or dropped (usually around shot changes) - unless you were in Game mode or one other custom mode (both of which had odd gamma).

I spotted the fault within 10 minutes of powering up my new set. None of the reviewers remarked on it. After quite a while of pursuing with successively higher levels of support in Japan, Sony accepted it was a significant issue and replaced lots of our sets (with the later XF variant once it was released) as a result. John Lewis (who I bought the set from) were also very helpful.

Vincent got very spiky when I asked why he'd not mentioned the fault in his review... The RTings guys didn't spot it either - but were a lot more welcoming of feedback.

It was such a clearly obvious, basic, fault - it made me question what else these guys just weren't seeing...

If the difference is just reported subjective differences between different TVs displaying DV content and those two TVs are using different DV metadata routes - then I'd avoid any assumption of correlation meaning causation - the differences could be in DV performance and nothing to do with the metadata delivery system. It could just be that the Dolby result on some models is different to others. Unless someone is actually doing objective tests demonstrating a difference with DV test signals on a display that supports both metadata routes.

Presumably you can compare an Apple TV 4K in Netflix showing the same DV player-led content on both manufacturers' TVs and if the performance is similarly different - that removes the metadata delivery route from the equation - and points the finger at different DV display processing in the TV?

OLEDs presumably have a major issue with DV's significantly higher potential dynamic range than regular HDR10 - so TVs will need to implement Dolby Vision mandated processing to manage this (and decide how to handle highlights that go out of the display's light output level range)  This is where tone mapping comes in.

That said - quite a few TVs are now breaking with the PQ ST.2084 'absolute' EOTF and implementing custom tone mapping (which breaks the direct video->light output relationship that PQ standards like DV, HDR10 and HDR10+ are based on) so unless these have been disabled it's going to be difficult to tell what's going on (and close to impossible to properly calibrate a screen to match the 2084 EOTF across it's light output range)

(As for LG and Panasonic OLEDs vs Sony - Panasonic OLEDs had a type-fault with 50i content a while back that took ages to fix - if it ever was...  LG seem to be OK - and most of the people I know who know a lot about HDR post production favour them.)

[wrxtasy]

I've seen this consistently & constantly mention from multiple sources as well re: Sony DV - especially when used with DV streaming from an Apple TV 4K ...

..With Dolby Vision content it was more obvious that the Sony wasn’t quite as dynamic as the Panasonic, retaining its slightly darker image tone...

Sony AG9/A9G (KD-55AG9) OLED TV Review - avsforums

[noggin]

I've seen this consistently & constantly mention from multiple sources as well re: Sony DV - especially when used with DV streaming from an Apple TV 4K ...

..With Dolby Vision content it was more obvious that the Sony wasn’t quite as dynamic as the Panasonic, retaining its slightly darker image tone...

Sony AG9/A9G (KD-55AG9) OLED TV Review - avsforums 

Doesn't that demonstrate it's NOT the DV-metadata delivery route (player-led vs TV-led) that's the issue then?  It's the DV implementation on the display ?  If both the Panasonic and Sony are being fed metadata via the same route - it's not the metadata route causing the visual differences?

Having said that - it looks like the comparisons may have been made in that review using the internal player apps?  If that's the case then there is no HDMI route to have an issue with - as the DV data will neither be tunnelled nor carried over HDMI - it will just be decoded in the HEVC+DV decoding hardware/software in the display? So TV-led vs Player-led HDMI metadata implementations are moot?

Isn't the difference what the Sony and Panasonic displays DO with the metadata in terms of using the dynamic metadata to optimise the source video for their displays. (Though I thought Dolby were quite protective of that processing?)

I'm still not seeing where the TV-led vs Player-led metadata transport is cited as an issue?

[wrxtasy]

Doesn't that demonstrate it's NOT the DV-metadata delivery route (player-led vs TV-led) that's the issue then?....

I'm still not seeing where the TV-led vs Player-led metadata transport is cited as an issue?

Remember I did Not really say in my original statement that TV-led vs Player-led metadata transport was ever the issue. (I may have mistakingly hinted at it tho)

The problem was what happens on the end of the HDMI chain with DV content displayed on various OLED TV's like the Sony's which happen coincidentally to use TV-led DV implementations.

The Darker DV picture output results were one of the reasons why I avoided the DV capable Sony OLED's.

[stammie]

What's the basis for that ?    

I though the same as you initially, but after viewing and listening to numerous 2019 DV capable OLED TV tests from professional TV calibrator guys like @Vincent_Teoh from HDTVtest.co.uk
Who is saying numerous times saying - TV led DV (LG & 2019 Panasonic) - is superior to - player led DV (Sony) - when implemented in an OLED TV.

No idea what the diff is or why. Maybe it's DV Firmware bugs or limitations in older, cheaper hardware Sony are still using internally.

It's a bit of a moot point anyway because Sony OLED's when I went shopping recently were consistently 1/3 more expensive again vs the LG and Panasonics OLED's.      

I'm always a bit cautious in reviews of TVs online - including Vincent Teoh  

I bought a new OLED a couple of months ago, but I found online reviews especially those by Mr Teoh made me procrastinate far longer than was necessary over which one to buy.
I came to the conclusion that all sets have some sort of fault on them and if I went by his reviews I would never buy any set.
In the end I went to my local Richer Sounds armed with some test videos and they let me play with all the TV's I was interested in.

I ended up buying an LG C9 and couldn't be happier with it
Although Vincent did me a bit of a favour in the end, because I'd procrastinated that long that the C9 received a £500 price cut the day before I eventually purchased it

[Hitcher]

Well I for one am very happy with my new Shield Pro as I'm now back to using a box for all my media - Kodi, Netflix (Dolby Vision + Dolby Atmos), and Prime (Dolby Vision + Dolby Atmos) which meant I could stop using (and sell) my old Shield and Apple TV 4K.

[rwijnhov]

But is the image quality better then the appletv 4k?  And is the upscaling better then the atv4k? I am really want to go back to the shield but then it has to be better then the atv. The old shield was a let down in that area. I already own a firestick4k which runs kodi nicely.

[hdmkv]

Does "player led DV" mean DV from premium apps like Netflix & Amazon Prime? Can the new Shield TV do DV using Kodi for single-layer UHD rips in MP4 w/HD audio?

[Hitcher]

But is the image quality better then the appletv 4k?

To my eyes they're the same.

[rwijnhov]

Ok that's good to hear. Because even with 4k content the shield 2017 was a lot softer then the fire stick 4k and the atv4k. Once you see that difference you can't go back to the 2017. I have a 75" samsung on that size it's really noticable. Also does the netflix app now do refreshrate switching?