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Intel Gemini Lake
(2020-02-20, 21:30)fritsch Wrote: Decoding and output are two things.

Both obviously can decode h265 10 bit just fine. Depending on the windows driver, some are more limited than others when it comes to output.

Didn't we have that before? Certain devices were not allowed to passthrough dts-hd ma on windows, but worked fine on linux?

I am talking strictly LINUX driver. No windows.
Librelec / Intel VAAPI to be exact.

Can J4005 or J5005 decode same files/bitrate in the same quality? I was concerned because of the missing 6 EUs (UHD 600 vs UHD 605). I think that is waht Mount81 is also asking, if the GPU power doesn't concern the decoding.
I was about to buy an NUC with either of those SoCs...

Background: My Zbox ID 18 with Intel 1007U does not hardware decode h.265 or output UHD 4K, but as a raw LE Box did its work just fine, now i want to upgrade.
Reply
(2020-02-21, 12:06)PKOneTwo Wrote:
(2020-02-20, 21:30)fritsch Wrote: Decoding and output are two things.

Both obviously can decode h265 10 bit just fine. Depending on the windows driver, some are more limited than others when it comes to output.

Didn't we have that before? Certain devices were not allowed to passthrough dts-hd ma on windows, but worked fine on linux?

I am talking strictly LINUX driver. No windows.
Librelec / Intel VAAPI to be exact.

Can J4005 or J5005 decode same files/bitrate in the same quality? I was concerned because of the missing 6 EUs (UHD 600 vs UHD 605). I think that is waht Mount81 is also asking, if the GPU power doesn't concern the decoding.
I was about to buy an NUC with either of those SoCs...

Background: My Zbox ID 18 with Intel 1007U does not hardware decode h.265 or output UHD 4K, but as a raw LE Box did its work just fine, now i want to upgrade.  
My understanding is that EU-count doesn't impact core video decoding functionality (which is done separately and doesn't use EUs).  However scaling (and I believe de-interlacing?) use EUs - and in the bad old days of very limited GPU functionality on Intel SoCs you had compromised deinterlacing (i.e. motion adaptive only and no motion compensative) on very low power GPUs with a very small EU-count.  However on current SoCs even the basic GPUs can offer decent deinterlacing.

AFAIK the HEVC/h.265 and AVC/h.264 decode abilities are pretty similar across current models - though on some relatively recent, very low-power SoCs there have been question marks over high-bitrate, high-resolution, high-frame-rate decoding with single-channel lower-speed RAM (i.e. manufacturers recommended dual-channel configs) as you still have to pump a lot of pixels around (even if you aren't doing very much to them)?
Reply
(2020-02-21, 12:51)noggin Wrote:
(2020-02-21, 12:06)PKOneTwo Wrote:
(2020-02-20, 21:30)fritsch Wrote: Decoding and output are two things.

Both obviously can decode h265 10 bit just fine. Depending on the windows driver, some are more limited than others when it comes to output.

Didn't we have that before? Certain devices were not allowed to passthrough dts-hd ma on windows, but worked fine on linux?

I am talking strictly LINUX driver. No windows.
Librelec / Intel VAAPI to be exact.

Can J4005 or J5005 decode same files/bitrate in the same quality? I was concerned because of the missing 6 EUs (UHD 600 vs UHD 605). I think that is waht Mount81 is also asking, if the GPU power doesn't concern the decoding.
I was about to buy an NUC with either of those SoCs...

Background: My Zbox ID 18 with Intel 1007U does not hardware decode h.265 or output UHD 4K, but as a raw LE Box did its work just fine, now i want to upgrade.    
My understanding is that EU-count doesn't impact core video decoding functionality (which is done separately and doesn't use EUs).  However scaling (and I believe de-interlacing?) use EUs - and in the bad old days of very limited GPU functionality on Intel SoCs you had compromised deinterlacing (i.e. motion adaptive only and no motion compensative) on very low power GPUs with a very small EU-count.  However on current SoCs even the basic GPUs can offer decent deinterlacing.

AFAIK the HEVC/h.265 and AVC/h.264 decode abilities are pretty similar across current models - though on some relatively recent, very low-power SoCs there have been question marks over high-bitrate, high-resolution, high-frame-rate decoding with single-channel lower-speed RAM (i.e. manufacturers recommended dual-channel configs) as you still have to pump a lot of pixels around (even if you aren't doing very much to them)?  
So would you say, a UHD 600 of a J4005 (in likes of NUC7CJYH) is more then enough for hardware decoding of h.265?

When you talked about a low-power SoC, were you talking about the J4005 SoC?
Because i was about tpo use a 4GB DDR-400 DIMM (single channel) or would that be a problem (concerning upscaling etc) or did you talk about old generations like the Intel 1007U and older?
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Don't overcomplicate things: All Gemini Lake CPUs have the same hardware decoding capabilities. Just save some money and go for the "smaller" J4105 (I haven't heard of a J4005).
Reply
(2020-02-21, 16:20)PKOneTwo Wrote:
(2020-02-21, 12:51)noggin Wrote:
(2020-02-21, 12:06)PKOneTwo Wrote: I am talking strictly LINUX driver. No windows.
Librelec / Intel VAAPI to be exact.

Can J4005 or J5005 decode same files/bitrate in the same quality? I was concerned because of the missing 6 EUs (UHD 600 vs UHD 605). I think that is waht Mount81 is also asking, if the GPU power doesn't concern the decoding.
I was about to buy an NUC with either of those SoCs...

Background: My Zbox ID 18 with Intel 1007U does not hardware decode h.265 or output UHD 4K, but as a raw LE Box did its work just fine, now i want to upgrade.    
My understanding is that EU-count doesn't impact core video decoding functionality (which is done separately and doesn't use EUs).  However scaling (and I believe de-interlacing?) use EUs - and in the bad old days of very limited GPU functionality on Intel SoCs you had compromised deinterlacing (i.e. motion adaptive only and no motion compensative) on very low power GPUs with a very small EU-count.  However on current SoCs even the basic GPUs can offer decent deinterlacing.

AFAIK the HEVC/h.265 and AVC/h.264 decode abilities are pretty similar across current models - though on some relatively recent, very low-power SoCs there have been question marks over high-bitrate, high-resolution, high-frame-rate decoding with single-channel lower-speed RAM (i.e. manufacturers recommended dual-channel configs) as you still have to pump a lot of pixels around (even if you aren't doing very much to them)?   
So would you say, a UHD 600 of a J4005 (in likes of NUC7CJYH) is more then enough for hardware decoding of h.265?
I've not used Intel GPUs for Kodi use for a while. I switched from my Chromebox to ARM platforms ages ago, when I wanted UHD HDR support.

Quote:When you talked about a low-power SoC, were you talking about the J4005 SoC?
No - I was talking about quite a few generations before - Sandy Bridge / Ivy Bridge era.
Quote:Because i was about tpo use a 4GB DDR-400 DIMM (single channel) or would that be a problem (concerning upscaling etc) or did you talk about old generations like the Intel 1007U and older? 

I think the Dual Channel stuff was an issue in Apollo Lake (or maybe one generation before) - I'm not across current issues.
Reply
(2020-02-22, 00:13)noggin Wrote:
(2020-02-21, 16:20)PKOneTwo Wrote:
(2020-02-21, 12:51)noggin Wrote: My understanding is that EU-count doesn't impact core video decoding functionality (which is done separately and doesn't use EUs).  However scaling (and I believe de-interlacing?) use EUs - and in the bad old days of very limited GPU functionality on Intel SoCs you had compromised deinterlacing (i.e. motion adaptive only and no motion compensative) on very low power GPUs with a very small EU-count.  However on current SoCs even the basic GPUs can offer decent deinterlacing.

AFAIK the HEVC/h.265 and AVC/h.264 decode abilities are pretty similar across current models - though on some relatively recent, very low-power SoCs there have been question marks over high-bitrate, high-resolution, high-frame-rate decoding with single-channel lower-speed RAM (i.e. manufacturers recommended dual-channel configs) as you still have to pump a lot of pixels around (even if you aren't doing very much to them)?   
So would you say, a UHD 600 of a J4005 (in likes of NUC7CJYH) is more then enough for hardware decoding of h.265? 
I've not used Intel GPUs for Kodi use for a while. I switched from my Chromebox to ARM platforms ages ago, when I wanted UHD HDR support.
Quote:When you talked about a low-power SoC, were you talking about the J4005 SoC?
No - I was talking about quite a few generations before - Sandy Bridge / Ivy Bridge era.
Quote:Because i was about tpo use a 4GB DDR-400 DIMM (single channel) or would that be a problem (concerning upscaling etc) or did you talk about old generations like the Intel 1007U and older? 

I think the Dual Channel stuff was an issue in Apollo Lake (or maybe one generation before) - I'm not across current issues. 
I see. Seems that J4005 (with UHD600 IGPU) is a good choice.
Out of curiousity: what ARM plattform/box do you use?
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(2020-02-22, 02:26)PKOneTwo Wrote: I see. Seems that J4005 (with UHD600 IGPU) is a good choice.
Out of curiousity: what ARM plattform/box do you use? 

Various AMLogic-based devices running CoreElec - S922X ODroid N2 booting from eMMC, S905X3 no-name Android box booting CoreElec from uSD card - both of which do UHD HDR + HD Audio without breaking sweat - though I do get occasional video drop-outs (HDMI re-syncs) on both boxes. (Not been able to work out if that's my AV+TV or the AMLogic stuff or CoreElec - it's a niggle but not a show stopper for me)

I got fed up with Intel lagging with HDR and 10-bit output support so switched. (I had Chromeboxes which were fine for 8-bit SDR HD h.264 stuff and were a really neat solution). I also use Raspberry Pis for HD h.264 applications, particularly DVB-T/T2 Live TV (the TV Hat is a very neat way of adding TV reception to a standalone box, or with a Pi Zero+TV Hat you can turn it into a Ethernet-over-USB DVB-T/T2 tuner gadget that is powered and connects over a single USB connection and appears as a network adapter).
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Thx for the Info. I read into it.

I ordered the NUC7CJYH (which has a J4005 Celeron => Intel UHD600 GPU) with 4GB Single Channel.
It is a little bit faster then my old 1007U Celeron (Ivy Bridge).
I had to turn on UHD mode in my Samsung TV, otherwise it would give me max [email protected] I still don't know why.
Was watching some 1080p24p content, upscaled to 3840x2160p24p, was running fine.

But: every 10 or 30 seconds 1 core (of the 2) goes up to 40-50% for a second and then down.
And i have the impression the menu isn't "more fluid" then with the old 1007U.

@fritsch :
I am sorry to bother you, but you are one of a few knowing a lot about intel GPUs and intel in common and since you helped my out in the past,
i hope you can do the same again  Smile

1.) i read you have a Samsung TV as well (RU 7100 series with a 60Hz panel):
  • do have any explanation why we have to turn on UHD mode so we can get 60hz on 4k resolution? I don't have to do that with the fireTv 4k, for example!?!
  • do you have your Tv on Full and your HTPC on Full (with Dithering) or just both on limited? Because with this TVs both is possible!

2.) 2 years ago i asked you (in thge VAAPI howto thread) and you helped me out:
was about this xorg.conf settings (for best quality i could get out of the old 1007U)
  • Should i still use it (because it is an Intel GPU) or the options obsolete (or even contra-productive)?
  • are there any recommended settings for the xorg.conf (concerning picture quality)?
3.) would you recommend: giving the NUC back and waiting for a new CPU/GPU generation or getting the NUC7PJYH (which has the J5005, 4 Cores, UHD 605 GPU with 8GB Dual Channel) or something else?
As i read your signature: i don't want to waste money, my intentions are:
fluid skin (no animations necessary), hardware decoding of h.264 and h.265, some streaming addons mostly in 1080p (youtube, etc.)

I hope you can help me
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I don't run VAAPI and intel gpus with my TV at all anymore. All my knowledge is documented in the VAAPI thread, but yes I also had to force enable UHD to have the 60 hz modes. Back at that time intel only had RGB scanout. Nowadays with modern kernels that changed, but still not influencable, usable from userspace really.

From the time back everything was a hack. Forcing kodi to Limited Range, forcing Xorg to Full Range, forcing  TV to limited range (in that combination). Kodi still output sRGB with limited Range. Worked nicely enough for SDR and HDR to SDR, but proper surface management far away. Wayland has good potential to fix that. GBM as well. For X11 which relies on GL Context does something correctly I don't see the solution yet. The other ones named have the possibility as drm master to change the bits needed.

Today it's sadly like: if you want HDR output, don't go with intel - best use Android. Some are happy with AML, but that might break every singly day - cause it's an island solution against known standards.

Try to contact @lrusak or @Kwiboo  - they now best and can point out preliminary solutions that work properly.
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
Reply
(2020-02-23, 14:30)fritsch Wrote: I don't run VAAPI and intel gpus with my TV at all anymore. All my knowledge is documented in the VAAPI thread, but yes I also had to force enable UHD to have the 60 hz modes. Back at that time intel only had RGB scanout. Nowadays with modern kernels that changed, but still not influencable, usable from userspace really.

From the time back everything was a hack. Forcing kodi to Limited Range, forcing Xorg to Full Range, forcing  TV to limited range (in that combination). Kodi still output sRGB with limited Range. Worked nicely enough for SDR and HDR to SDR, but proper surface management far away. Wayland has good potential to fix that. GBM as well. For X11 which relies on GL Context does something correctly I don't see the solution yet. The other ones named have the possibility as drm master to change the bits needed.

Today it's sadly like: if you want HDR output, don't go with intel - best use Android. Some are happy with AML, but that might break every singly day - cause it's an island solution against known standards.

Try to contact @lrusak or @Kwiboo  - they now best and can point out preliminary solutions that work properly.
Thank you for your response. Really appreciate it.
Lets say i do not want HDR now or the next 3 years or so (since my TV has not enough nits for a good HDR picture). I just want to be able to run libreelec and decode h.264 and h.265 until 4K resolution.

Would you recommend any NUC (like the J4005 oder J5005 SoC)?
What kind of device do you use as HTPC, AML or Amazon FireTV?

I have been kind of OK with the old Zbox ID18 (1007U), but it is a bit slow + won't decode h.265 (CPU power isn't there) + no 4K resolution (for 4k material, since it is a big TV)
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No idea, really. If you just do what you say - no fancy addons, nothing more - it does not matter. Keep one thing in mind: kodi's menus are quite CPU intensive. Some team members did not like J4005 nor J5005 performance in menus when running that at 4k 60 hz. When I still was on intel I had the GUI at 1080p 50 hz and just switched up to 4K for videos.

As you plan for 3 years, you can invest a bit more. Perhaps there is a nice core i3 NUC or something with most modern intel cpu / gpu combination.
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
Reply
(2020-02-23, 15:18)fritsch Wrote: No idea, really. If you just do what you say - no fancy addons, nothing more - it does not matter. Keep one thing in mind: kodi's menus are quite CPU intensive. Some team members did not like J4005 nor J5005 performance in menus when running that at 4k 60 hz. When I still was on intel I had the GUI at 1080p 50 hz and just switched up to 4K for videos.

As you plan for 3 years, you can invest a bit more. Perhaps there is a nice core i3 NUC or something with most modern intel cpu / gpu combination.

What kind of device do you use as usual HTPC, AML or ?
Reply
I only use kodi for watching pictures and my old bluray backups. Here I have the firetv in use.

For livetv I have zattoo, for content dazn and amazon prime.
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
Reply
(2020-02-23, 16:35)fritsch Wrote: I only use kodi for watching pictures and my old bluray backups. Here I have the firetv in use.

For livetv I have zattoo, for content dazn and amazon prime.

This maybe off-topic now, but when you want to watch say 1080p/4K video material in .mkv format, which device do you use then?
FireTv?
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FireTV 4K. It can do everything I used (besides DTS-HD, TrueHD passthrough), but I don't care too much as we can losslessly decode them. I invested a lot of time to get the A/V Sync on Android fixed up properly and now it's fine for me.

Edit: Carefully check my signature before you buy anything and think about it. If you want to use a Firetv 4K for 1080i h264 livetv, it will just suck, so be warned. Also if you have a shitty wireless ac network, you won't be happy. I use mine with an entire AVM mesh network and get > 250 Mbit/s with real life testing, therefore I have zero issues with my NFS shares. Avoid SMB on Android anyways.
First decide what functions / features you expect from a system. Then decide for the hardware. Don't waste your money on crap.
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