[jhsrennie]

I finally got around to buying a Harmony universal handset so I could test it. The one I bought is a 300, which is a low end model, but the functionality is similar to the more expensive models.

It all works fine, as you'd expect, but it does show the delay that several people have mentioned. It seems to be sending about 2 button presses per second e.g. if I press the down arrow ten times as fast as I can, XBMC takes about five seconds to move down ten places.

I've tried it with a Microsoft receiver and also an HP receiver and both show the delay. The HP receiver has the part number 5188-1667 and this particular model has been recommended for not showing delays, but on my system it does. This suggests having the "right" model of HP receiver does not guarantee no delay.

Googling suggests the relatively slow response is down to the inter-key delay setting. On the Harmony 300 you can't change this setting, but on the more expensive models it can be reduced using the Harmony software.

However, the delay is not particularly noticable. When you hold a button down the autorepeat is not affected by the delay, so if I'm scrolling through a long list I keep the "down" button pressed and XBMC scrolls at full speed. You only notice the delay when you're pressing and releasing a button rapidly. How irritating you find this is down to you I guess. I'm going to use the Harmony for a week or so to see how I get on with it.

JR

[olympia]

That is 100% exactly what I was also experiencing and mentioning in many threads all over already (after trying to use a Harmony One with every possible settings).

To me and also to my wife this makes the remote _completely_ unusable.
In real life you never scroll with keeping the buttons pushed. You always press them rapidly after each other.

[gabbott]

I just started using a Harmony 300 myself. The layout is decent, but there is that lag/delay when pressing and releasing a button rapidly, like the down button, and I find I often overshoot the TV show I want to watch because of it.

It is very disappointing that the 300 doesnt have the advanced options to adjust any delay but I only paid about $20 for it. Regardless, I haven't decided on if I'll keep it as my main remote for using XBMC. Was thinking about picking up an actual MS branded MCE remote off ebay (as long as I can map my volume buttons to the TV). Presently I've been using an XBOX 360 media remote and love it, but now have an XBOX360 and using that remote results in the 360 getting turned on inadvertently.

Anyway, I've heard of the "Harmony lag" before and in using the 300, it works very well other than scrolling lists when hitting an arrow key multiple times in succession.

[Livin]

I've used several Harmony remotes (620, 670, 750) over the past few years and never had a lag issue. I don't use the built-in XBMC IR code - I use EventGhost & USB-UIRT.

Quick test to help isolate the where the issue is...

Use the Harmony remote with your TV and/or BluRay player directly
-- if the lag happens directly with the TV/BR then your remote is the issue
-- if there is no lag, then it is a problem with XBMC's code or your IR receiver.

[dtviewer]

I've used several Harmony remotes (620, 670, 750) over the past few years and never had a lag issue. I don't use the built-in XBMC IR code - I use EventGhost & USB-UIRT.

Quick test to help isolate the where the issue is...

Use the Harmony remote with your TV and/or BluRay player directly
-- if the lag happens directly with the TV/BR then your remote is the issue
-- if there is no lag, then it is a problem with XBMC's code or your IR receiver.

Same here. I have used 620, 676, 670, 700 and Harmony One's and have never had any lag issues.

I have also set up Harmony's for other people and have never seen the remote perform any differently than the original equipment remotes.

[gabbott]

I've used several Harmony remotes (620, 670, 750) over the past few years and never had a lag issue. I don't use the built-in XBMC IR code - I use EventGhost & USB-UIRT.

Quick test to help isolate the where the issue is...

Use the Harmony remote with your TV and/or BluRay player directly
-- if the lag happens directly with the TV/BR then your remote is the issue
-- if there is no lag, then it is a problem with XBMC's code or your IR receiver.

Same here. I have used 620, 676, 670, 700 and Harmony One's and have never had any lag issues.

I have also set up Harmony's for other people and have never seen the remote perform any differently than the original equipment remotes.

Just to note, the "lag" I've noticed is only when hitting a button in rapid succession (e.g. when scrolling through a list) so it is possible as well that some people could never notice that issue depending on how they use the remote.

*shrug* I've got other remotes that don't exhibit that same behavior using the same system and IR receiver.

[jhsrennie]

@olympia: Did you try changing the inter-key delay? If so what, if any, difference did it make. Given that i only bought the Harmony to test it I'm disinclined to drop £100 on a Harmony One just for testing :-)

@gabbott: I have an MS remote and I was using it before I bought the Harmony. I have the volume button set to change the volume on my amp, and the TV power button set to power the TV. This works very well. Actually I prefer the MS remote to the Harmony, though these days it will cost more. On the UK ebay genuine MS remotes go for £30. Note that it has to be a branded MS handset. The many rebadged MS handsets out there usually don't allow you to configure the volume and TV power buttons.

@livin: you see the lag when using the remote to type numbers into Notepad so it's not application dependent.

JR

[jhsrennie]

More info:

Since I have a large pile of remotes left over from when I was first adding support for MCE remotes, I thought I'd see if the delay depended on what device the Harmony was emulating. I timed how long it took for the Harmony to generate 20 presses of the "0" button. This was just typing into Notepad, so it is about as simple a test as possible. Here are the results:

Code:

Device                                   Time (/secs)
Microsoft Media Center Edition keyboard      10
Speedlink SL-3699                             8
Ortek VRC-1100                                6

Now that's interesting. It looks as if the Harmony sets the delay differently depending on which device it's emulating. The Ortek delay is almost half that of the MCE keyboard.

There's one other obvious experiment to do. Suppose I configure the Harmony to emulate an Ortek remote, but I learn the IR codes from a Microsoft remote. If I do that, and connect the HP receiver to my PC, the 20 keypresses take 6 seconds not 10 seconds i.e. I have greatly reduced the delay.

So I think the delay is set in the Harmony configs on a per device basis. This would explain why Livin gets no delay using a USB-UIRT receiver. Indeed it would explain the different experiences reported by different users.

JR

[BigNoid]

As I've understood it, there is always a 250 ms delay due to hardware limitations (time the chip needs to convert the command into ir code). Also it's not possible for the harmony to not send commands anymore once you stop pressing the buttons (rapidly pressing 5 times always sends 5 commands although you may have stopped on the third item).
These two limitations cannot be undone by what sort of setting in the harmony software, or by emulating what kind of device.
There may be a difference in how the user experiences this delay, but it's always there and a harmony one can never fully give the same browsing experience as the original remote.

[jhsrennie]

Last few comments (for a bit at least):

I tried setting the Harmony to emulate a variety of eHome/RC6 remotes in the hope I'd find one with a short delay. Examples include the Mediagate remotes and the HP HDX remote. However all the emulations I tried had the same delay. I assume Logitech have used the same basic template for all the eHome remotes.

I might try pursuing this on the Logitech support forums, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

JR

[sab0fro]

...It seems to be sending about 2 button presses per second e.g. if I press the down arrow ten times as fast as I can, XBMC takes about five seconds to move down ten places.
JR

Could this be the debounce setting? http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windo...9d641d47d1

I had an a similar issue when going from XBMC-Live to Win7 where each key press would be interpreted as 2. I disabled debounce and all is well.

[PKOneTwo]

I have the same problem. And I am using the harmony 300 + eventghost!
It seems to me that the dalay started about 3 months ago (perhaps due to something new in the eden builds or some windows update fix?).
Have also win7pro SP1 32bit with newest updates installed.

[olympia]

@olympia: Did you try changing the inter-key delay? If so what, if any, difference did it make. Given that i only bought the Harmony to test it I'm disinclined to drop £100 on a Harmony One just for testing :-)

Yes I did.

- I tried everything for a week long after read up a lot on multiple forums (especially on Logitech's forum).
- Tried emulating multiple remotes including MCE keyboard as suggested here and there many times.
- Contacted Logitech's support which did some reprogramming even in properties which are not accessible via the normal programming interface

Although I could reduced the lag a little, it has been never even close to the original MCE Remote user experience.

As I've understood it, there is always a 250 ms delay due to hardware limitations (time the chip needs to convert the command into ir code). Also it's not possible for the harmony to not send commands anymore once you stop pressing the buttons (rapidly pressing 5 times always sends 5 commands although you may have stopped on the third item).
These two limitations cannot be undone by what sort of setting in the harmony software, or by emulating what kind of device.
There may be a difference in how the user experiences this delay, but it's always there and a harmony one can never fully give the same browsing experience as the original remote.

Exactly.

[Livin]

One thing you can try that I found accidentally...

Skin XMLs have an effect delay built in. If you reduce this delay, XBMC becomes more responsive. Just play with this... if set too low, as I did once or twice, it made things too fast - so tweak it a little at a time.

[/CODE]So I think the delay is set in the Harmony configs on a per device basis. This would explain why Livin gets no delay using a USB-UIRT receiver. Indeed it would explain the different experiences reported by different users.

JR

I think the delays are universal (to start with) no matter what remote you are using. You can tweak each but I've never needed to. I suspect I have no problems because of the USB-UIRT being rock solid and a higher-end IR receiver vs what most others might be using.

@livin: you see the lag when using the remote to type numbers into Notepad so it's not application dependent.

JR

My Harmony is set to emulate MCE Remote (not keyboard) so any device specifics that might/would be in that remote are not causing a delay.


@Everyone...

Remember there are many variables that play to make this all work.

XBMC code
IR receiver device
IR receiver driver
IR sender (remote)
IR sender's IR codes being sent (what Harmony is emulating)

In my case I have no lag... thus my combination of the above does not have a problem.

From what I've read, over several different threads, is there is a common set of variables from the above list that sticks out in my mind for people with the problem...

IR receiver (and possibly driver)

I suspect people have a wide range of IR receivers. From all the people using USB-UIRT I have not read of anyone having lag. So, I suspect it has to do the with 'combination' of the IR receiver being used AND the Harmony remote (though 250ms is not a lag that would be noticed)

[jhsrennie]

I've ended up setting the Harmony to emulate an ORtek VRC-1100 and using the ORtek receiver on my HTPC. This is almost lag free. I can generate a bit of lag if I press the buttons in a frenzy, but in normal use I notice no lag.

Actually this works pretty well. The ORtek is not a bad remote, but it has a few foibles like the Info button sending a right mouse click. On the Harmony you can shuffle the buttons around so you can make the Info button do something more useful.

JR