• 1
  • 118
  • 119
  • 120(current)
  • 121
  • 122
  • 522
Kodi DSPlayer – DirectShow Player for Windows
Range Levels. Guys, with all my respect, i've seen this discussion thousand times and it's going nowhere. I'm sure u both can quote multiple reliable sources but hardly reach a common solution. I've read a lot about the topic to know different reliable ppl have different opinion with their good reasoning. At the end, as happened to me, every person is gonna handle it as their own eyes dictate.
HTPC
Silverstone Grandia GD05 - Intel i5 3570k -Asus H61M-G Micro-ATX - Unidad Blu-ray
MSI GTX970 4GB GDDR5 - 8 GB RAM DDR3 - AVR Denon X3400H Atmos - LG  OLED 55C7V
Reply
(2015-10-16, 12:52)vicmanpergar Wrote: Range Levels. Guys, with all my respect, i've seen this discussion thousand times and it's going nowhere. I'm sure u both can quote multiple reliable sources but hardly reach a common solution. I've read a lot about the topic to know different reliable ppl have different opinion with their good reasoning. At the end, as happened to me, every person is gonna handle it as their own eyes dictate.

As stated, this decision will have minimal impact on image quality. Try each option for yourself. You may also find your TV looks better in one mode that is not the perfect solution for someone else. I am betting it is more dependent on the way your TV displays this output than having generically correct levels. If you don't want to re-calibrate your TV for PC mode, then don't. And madshi has stated there is nothing wrong with outputting at a limited range.

super-xbr/NNEDI3 + SuperRes is much more impressive.

Edit: There is now a need for SuperRes settings sharpness and scale in linear light with madVR v0.89.11.

Scale in linear light should be left off for most users. Sharpness looks best at 2 to my eyes.
Reply
(2015-10-16, 12:52)vicmanpergar Wrote: Range Levels. Guys, with all my respect, i've seen this discussion thousand times and it's going nowhere. I'm sure u both can quote multiple reliable sources but hardly reach a common solution. I've read a lot about the topic to know different reliable ppl have different opinion with their good reasoning.

There isn't discussion because there is consensuos when madvr is the renderer.

For example. Warner306 recommends two guides:

Quote:madVR Expert Guide

Completing initial set-up will be left to an external guide. My guide of choice is the JRiver Media Center MADVR Expert Guide, which will guide you through each configuration panel to get madVR up and running:

JRiver madVR Set-up & Configuration Guide

*It is recommended to use the Expert Guide for initial configuration of madVR.

madVR Definitions

The link below is also useful as a secondary reference and settings glossary:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=171787

6233638, JRiver madVR Set-up & Configuration Guide author:

Quote:If your display supports 0-255, then setup is easy - set everything to 0-255 and you don't have to think about it.
If your display does not support 0-255, you probably should not output 0-255 from the video card (using madNvLevelsTweaker.exe) and will have to compromise.

The first option is to have everything set to 0-255, except for the video card output, so that on the output stage it is being converted to 16-235. This means that all content is kept at the same levels (desktop & video) but the conversion to 16-235 on output may introduce banding. If you are using your PC for more than just video playback, this is the setup you have to use.

However, if you are going to be using the computer exclusively for watching videos through madVR, you have a second option. What you can do is set the video card output to 0-255, and set madVR to 16-235.

This will avoid the potential banding from having the video card compress the output levels to 16-235. But it will make anything that is not video look terrible, as anything on the desktop will still be outputting 0-255, and all values above 235 and below 16 will be clipped. (very high contrast image with no shadow/highlight detail)

I would only suggest doing this if your are only using the PC for video playback, and are seeing banding from the video card outputting 16-235.

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=16...ount=18062

Asmodian, madVR options explained guide author:

Quote:
Quote:my TV settings are hdmi RGB Range is full, also 4K pure Direct is off,
in nvidia control panel I have many options like YCbCr 444,4422,420 and RGB limited or full with native resolution 2160p 60hz.
I guess RGB full is good option, right?
Yes, you want to match what your TV is expecting. RGB Full is optimal since your TV supports it.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=...ost1742787

(2015-10-16, 12:52)vicmanpergar Wrote: At the end, as happened to me, every person is gonna handle it as their own eyes dictate.

Agreed. Note madshi, nevcairiel, etc. recommend full range but they write about other two options for specific situations.

(2015-10-16, 22:44)Warner306 Wrote: If you don't want to re-calibrate your TV for PC mode, then don't.

You don't need PC Mode to set PC Levels (full range) in the TV. Hdmi black levels settings is the place to look at.

(2015-10-16, 22:44)Warner306 Wrote: And madshi has stated there is nothing wrong with outputting at a limited range.

Read again to madshi:

Quote:My recommendation is always to set configure your display so that it expects PC levels (full range). This has 2 important benefits: (1) Levels will be correct for everything, including games, photos, applications and video playback. (2) There should be no problem with image quality.

If your display can't do PC levels, or if you have good reasons for not using this solution, then you have 2 alternative solutions:

(a) Either set the GPU to limited range and madVR to PC levels. This means madVR will render to PC levels and the GPU will afterwards stretch the madVR output (and desktop, games, applications, photos etc) to limited range. Using this approach still has the benefit of having correct levels everywhere. But image quality might suffer because the GPU usually uses a rather bad stretching algorithm, which can introduce banding artifacts.

(b) Or set the GPU to fullrange and madVR to TV levels. This will result in good image quality (no artifacts) and correct levels for video playback. However, desktop, games, applications and photos will have wrong levels

madshi recommends PC levels (full range) to avoid those downsides when sending limited range from an HTPC.
Reply
Understood. But full range RGB still doesn't look great on my TV. This is likely because I don't have an actual PC mode, just a full range RGB setting. I have a better grayscale when sending limited RGB. I used Reference Home Theatre's explanation to support my result. I have trouble getting the contrast and brightness to be perfect so the 1% black or white still shows without washing out the image. My TV is a 60" Samsung 7500 LED. I think I am getting a higher black level in this mode.

I added a sentence or two to clarify the use of full range RGB, but I still don't see any negative consequences from using limited RGB. It really doesn't make that much of a difference making this argument less important.

If you want to make sure RGB levels are spot-on, leave all video players at TV levels and set the GPU to full range. The signal will not undergo any conversions from start to finish. Any other option requires conversion of the input source.

And you left out the recommendation in the JRiver guide that the video card do the levels conversion, not the video renderer.

You presented a lot of good arguments against this statement, so the discussion can move on.
Reply
@Warner396 @Doom10

Aw, that makes me happy, don't get me wrong guys, i was just bit afraid the conversation was going that way, where one says black and other says white. It is always very nice to come and read the ppl who know lot more than me about the technic matters, i'm always eager to listen what Warner, or anyone who really know better, have to share about all this, it is very helpful.
Cheers!
HTPC
Silverstone Grandia GD05 - Intel i5 3570k -Asus H61M-G Micro-ATX - Unidad Blu-ray
MSI GTX970 4GB GDDR5 - 8 GB RAM DDR3 - AVR Denon X3400H Atmos - LG  OLED 55C7V
Reply
(2015-10-17, 21:31)vicmanpergar Wrote: @Warner396 @Doom10

Aw, that makes me happy, don't get me wrong guys, i was just bit afraid the conversation was going that way, where one says black and other says white. It is always very nice to come and read the ppl who know lot more than me about the technic matters, i'm always eager to listen what Warner, or anyone who really know better, have to share about all this, it is very helpful.
Cheers!

The only true way to settle this matter is to look at calibration results in full range RGB mode versus limited RGB for a given TV and compare the measured black level, contrast ratio and Delta-E values. If they are the same, PC mode would be a safe choice. This would be more important than the chance of adding banding or dithering noise, which would be difficult for most people to detect.
Reply
It's down to your TV though. I've better results with all full rgb with all my TVs. Using limited usually have problem with GUI / Other App / Games.
Reply
I tweaked the language in the guide one more time to be more democratic. But it's still not perfect. But my writing skills never are:

Proper RGB output levels are necessary when passing from PC to TV color spaces. When sending video via HDMI to a TV, the most straightforward color space is set as follows (Note: LAV Video RGB settings do not apply):

(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Limited Range RGB 16-235 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235

madVR expands the source 16-235 signal to full range RGB leaving the conversion back to 16-235 to the graphics card. Expanding the source prevents the GPU from clipping the image during conversion to 16-235.

If your HTPC is a dedicated Kodi machine, an alternative approach is possible.

Alternative Color Space Configuration:

(madVR) TV levels (16-235) -> (Kodi) Use limited color range (16-235) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235

In this configuration, the signal remains 16-235 until it reaches the TV avoiding any conversion by the GPU. This is the most pure path, which preserves the original levels and minimizes added dithering. However, other computer applications will appear over-saturated as a result unless they are also configured to use 16-235 levels. Kodi must be configured under System -> Video output to use a limited color range to match madVR.

A final option involves setting your TV to output RGB 0-255 and leaving all settings at full range. madVR expands the source to 0-255 and displays it full range on your television. The TV must first be calibrated while set to full range RGB (e.g. PC mode). The result can vary depending on how well your TV displays whiter-than-white and blacker-than-black values. This may be the optimal setting for TVs with a PC setting and reduces the chance of added banding when the GPU must convert to a limited range.

PC Color Space Configuration:

(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 0-255
Reply
I have a Samsung PS64D8000 TV. Should I use pm mode for this. I've just selected the dvi/HDMI input. I'm guessing there's a general advice for all Samsung TV regarding in out setting . I'm using full rgb currently.
Reply
"Like it or not, or sore!" I think that's a topic for new usufruitore not heal because already discussed, even though it appears that you have written many words, for me being noob regarding using madVR, the subject matter is still interesting ln line with the thread.

For example on my TV KDL-46HX900 full led, there are two options in Settings Video Input (Dynamic Range RGB) Limited / Full.
If imposed Full with options: (madVR) TV levels (16-235) -> (Kodi) Use limited color range (16-235) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235
and / or
(MadVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 0-255

The result is that he is gray bands, blacks drowned and a generally very faded picture with the Full mode, I do not know ', perhaps this is due please callibrato for RGB Full, interesting would be convinced what use if the RGB Full end you have these results

@warner.

Where to look for in madVR SuperRes sharpness level 2, then Catmull-rom image downscaling, stairs linear light must be turned off, if I understood the right way your EDIT to post higher.
Reply
@Gotham turn off the fucking autocorrettore italiano because non si capisce una ceppa di quello che scrivi ;-)
Reply
Ha ha ha ... Strange, because I have always said, however, I'll try to get me a car online spell checker ...
Reply
(2015-10-18, 17:26)gotham_x Wrote: Ha ha ha ... Strange, because I have always said, however, I'll try to get me a car online spell checker ...

I accept the broken English if you are looking for help...

You need the newest version of madVR for SuperRes sharpness to be available. For now, it can only be accessed in the madVR control panel until aracnoz adds it to the Video Settings menu. I think sharpness = 2 looks the best, and this is the default value, so you shouldn't have to change anything. The performance of SuperRes has also been improved, so it is less costly.

I have been using a test build of DSPlayer with improved support for http/https streams. super-xbr150 + AR (Image Doubling) with SuperRes (Upscaling Refinement) on top is very impressive in improving SD streams. Most look HD to my eyes. I think Image Doubling + SuperRes shows madVR at its very best. And super-xbr is not that costly - it is the same speed as Jinc. NNEDI3 is even better, but much more costly. If I recall, your GPU can handle NNEDI3, so that would be the best choice.
Reply
(2015-10-18, 08:51)Bjur Wrote: I have a Samsung PS64D8000 TV. Should I use pm mode for this. I've just selected the dvi/HDMI input. I'm guessing there's a general advice for all Samsung TV regarding in out setting . I'm using full rgb currently.

You would have to try each setting for yourself and see which one looks the best.
Reply
(2015-10-18, 22:02)Warner306 Wrote: I have been using a test build of DSPlayer with improved support for http/https streams.

Could you please double check if 4:3 material displays correctly as 4:3 (and not sideways-stretched) when using Normal view mode in Kodi? Like I wrote previously, the stretching started happening to me with the latest DSPlayer build. Never happened before and never happens when playing local (from NAS) files. I have no clue what's suddenly triggering the zoom when streaming; at any rate madVR OSD correctly says 4:3.
Reply
  • 1
  • 118
  • 119
  • 120(current)
  • 121
  • 122
  • 522

Logout Mark Read Team Forum Stats Members Help
Kodi DSPlayer – DirectShow Player for Windows47