[un1versal]

And for all the years of trying to support my favorite project as testified by the hundreds of wiki edits, thousands of forums posts and thousands of hours also providing support to all users in forums and especially IRC over the years and to my hundreds of Kodi source contributions that for the most part, felt mostly unappreciated by some of the team members, I also hand in my volunteer badge and walk out in protest in support of fritsch and spiff and all the others who devs and users whom have left the project due to similar reasons.

I realize in terms of value added and quality of contributions Im a drop of water in the sea of contributions these people added but I feel much like they did, because do not fool yourselfs, the internal team politics and this discord among team members is felt outside the team by everyone else who care to open eyes, and especially to those who contribute to kodi source code and are made to feel unwelcome (like I have) and pushed out and to some of these people who dared to try to make some contributions only to see them abandoned to the cob webs of time.

One thing some people in the Team do exceedingly well, is to discourage others from helping and contributing, because they are invalidated with the narrow vision which is goes against the very core which makes Kodi great.
You know who you are, and maybe you should be the ones leaving. (there I said it)

I would like to leave a huge thanks to

wsnipex, fritsch, cptspiff for all is help and support and fantastic kind approach, its always a pleasure to work with you, despite any easily surpassed differences. I have learned a great deal from you due to your principles though our interactions.

Walking out in support of:

Hi guys.

Time to say goodbye. Cause of differences in my way (some call it vision) of thinking where our open crossplatform kodi media center should go in the future with (not the majority) but the loudest part of the team. I will stop contributing to kodi. Thank you for your help in this thread and all the best for the future. There is no hate or anything involved, I highly appreciate the things we did in a team (when we still were a team). It's also not about who is the good and who is the bad guy. It just seems that my place is not here anymore.

To all of you: Have a brilliant future, never forget what OpenSource can do for humanity!

Edit: As I don't have moderator rights on the forum (never wanted to have rights to have advantages over real users) I cannot close this thread. Stay on topic and take care of the values and of course the humor I sent out over the last years. You all rock!

and

i urge anyone who value free software please help me save the project. i need hosting , everything else is ready. the project has been couped by the other guys and there is no hope left here. they even sensor differing opinions. this post wont live long but no other sites would post my fork announce...

---

cptspiff gmail com or notspiff at github

If any fellow users and other devs who, also feel the itch I feel, fritsch felt and spiff definitely felt, you are welcome to make up your own mind what place behind the line you stand and wether or not to join our swelling ranks.

Good news for the un1versal haters fan club, whom will have more needed members, since some of those members have started to like me .

[da-anda]

wtf is going on these days.

[PatK]

Not the best way to start the New Year.

[Tolriq]

I try to avoid answering on such post due to history

But if the Da-Anda question about "these days" is legit then the problem is way bigger than I thought.

There was always internal problems, and other ego problems that impacted Kodi, the problem is that sometimes the echo of those problems change from echo that disappear in the night to echo that amplify itself until exploding.

We are in an amplify timing problem that now users see (I have quite a lot of remarks but who cares about users ? ) And the problem is that maybe the one that have the good vision are not the one that speak out the louder and have the faith to fight against other to try to have their idea understood, so they simply either code for their need without caring and not worrying when things goes wrong as they look this from far away.

And some other that give up.

Anyway some knows my point of view on global vision and external coders handling and global leading so I will not debate on this part.

Just want to remember the history, this is not a "these days" problem, it will as often solve with some departure, some problems for V17 then another amplify phase in a few years

[DarkHelmet]

No idea what exactly is going on but I get the impression the team is getting smaller over the time.

[natethomas]

I don't think it's an ego problem exactly. Maybe it is. It was definitely a communication problem. The crux of the matter goes right here.

Cause of differences in my way (some call it vision) of thinking where our open crossplatform kodi media center should go in the future with (not the majority) but the loudest part of the team

At issue was a single PR that was intended for Kodi 16. This PR was a hack (and everyone agreed it was a hack) to get Android caught up to the other platforms in audio. An argument ensued in which Fritsch believed that accepting this hack for 16 would result in a slide down into worse code as we move forward into the future. Koying believed that it counted as a "fix" and particularly a hacky fix, which is something we occasionally do during releases, which fixes a bug in an ugly way, coding-wise. These hack fixes are occasionally necessary because we either don't have the time to do a full, clean fix, or because the full fix would touch too many other pieces of Kodi, and then we'd have to go through a whole new round of testing.

The frustrating and ironic thing about all of this is that it really is all about just this PR for Kodi 16. The PR would never have gone into Kodi's master branch, because Kodi 17 already has the fix necessary, but that fix is part of a much bigger overall fix that covers virtually all of Kodi playback.

Sadly, koying took this fight as another example of having to fight inanely for what he considered yet another minor thing, a bug fix. And fritsch took this as a sign that we were veering away from all the hard work he'd done over the past two years finally getting the code in a stable place, and not just that, but it was unfairly adding a feature to Android while the other platforms stayed static. There was also a meta-disagreement, in which koying thought fritsch and fernet were being a bit dictatorial. And fritsch thought koying and martijn (our release manager) were being dictatorial. Unwinding that meta-disagreement... I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Meanwhile, I think the vast majority of the rest of the team couldn't comprehend why this was such a big deal for both parties, because I think the rest of the team mostly doesn't care about 16 anymore. It's about to be released and is therefore boring. The interesting version of Kodi now is 17, which this PR never would have had anything to do with. And so when things exploded, I think the rest of us were mostly caught flatfooted.

At the end of the day, I think this could have probably been avoided with better communication, but I genuinely don't know how. Each person involved had what was, if you look at it from their perspective, a reasonable opinion. Fritsch didn't want to veer away from good code that worked cross-platform and didn't want to add a feature to a beta release. Koying wanted to fix a bug in a beta release and didn't want to have wasted a week working on a bug fix because of a disagreement about definitions.

It's extremely reasonable on both ends, and therefore extremely frustrating to see happen.

I have no idea why un1versal is leaving. I don't believe he has a stake in this argument.

sidenote: I normally don't air dirty laundry in public, but I thought I'd make an exception here, because both individuals have already gone public, and because I wanted to try to give context to what I'm guessing were heated declarations by both. And also because I think the laundry isn't particularly dirty. Both individuals were quite reasonable from where they were sitting. Things just hit wrong.

[Tolriq]

Since this answer is 100% related to my point of view I'll answer one more time

This :

and didn't want to have wasted a week working on a bug fix because of a disagreement about definitions.

Is the major problem and will always be until some understand the implications.

Have X people coding things for themselves and hoping to have a merge, but could have loose lot's of time because one people do not agree can not work on such a large project. (I do not even talk about how some members talks to newbies this is out of context I just talk about pure code contribution by people that can make abstraction)

This will always lead to EGO problems, or lassitude problems or many other possible problems, no one can exit unharmed from such repeated things.

This one case was the one more case, not just the case that triggers the problem. (And IMO we all know Koying way of speaking and I'm sure most know how to make abstraction and take all the good things hidden )

But this is also a problem for external coders, no way to have a yes feature could be cool before, it's code, learn, then have anyone refuse the PR.

https://github.com/xbmc/xbmc/pull/8704 is a good example, even between the Team for a PR that will sure be refused, one say refuse before working more, the other say let's continue it will cause problems for external coders to be motivated.

The problem should have been handled way earlier when the user asked about it : http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=252889 and some other post where he asked how to start this

No one did answer anything ... So you can't use forum to discuss about things you want to add, then you loose 1 day / week / month learning then fix then make a PR, then sorry no way this comes in.

This is just completely insane IMO and a long term major problem.

I attempted many things over the years to try to make the Team understand the problem but there's no way to have answers, since there's no real lead for such things.

When I now see you ask for more devs, but continue to not handle external devs, I'm sad because it can't work on the long term.

I could have done a lot for JSON and Windows but until there's a way to discuss before coding, I prefer pass time with my wife than coding for nothing and I suppose it's the case for most sane people.

A small reminder of one of my attempts : http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=166398

[natethomas]

I think you may be talking about something completely unrelated, tolriq. Whether the complaint is valid or not, it's not really related to the issue here at all.

[petemcfc]

Nate,
Thanks for that fair explanation,as users we dont know what goes on under the hood.

[Tinhorse34]

The explanation was both timely and informative......Thank you. Now at least everyone understands what was going on.

[Tolriq]

I think you may be talking about something completely unrelated, tolriq. Whether the complaint is valid or not, it's not really related to the issue here at all.

All hacky PR are refused, no feature adding after beta start also. It's easy to see how many refused PR previously and some release like 14.0 with known bugs.

Those are the postulate that could have helped to bring Kodi to a new stable world and forget history.

There would have been no reason to merge Koying patch as per your description (I have not followed the story, just your description and the sentence about week of lost work that is here for a reason).

Rules are not the same for all, target and vision too. I'll stop talking as I've done it way enough since years but this is related whether you like it or not. (No global decision and target, leading to managing tons of EGO all over the place)

[Ned Scott]

I just want to point out that spiff still works on Kodi. The situation around his departure was still unfortunate, but I think he found a balance in the aftermath. A way to work on the code he wanted to work on, without butting heads with the people that had conflicts with him. To this day his code continues to improve Kodi. Maybe it's not the ideal situation, but it's not doomsday.

As for fritsch and koying, I hope they also find a balance.

I'm not on their level, but I'm also no longer a member of Team Kodi, and for a while I thought I wouldn't even be active on the wiki or the community. However, I can assure you that is not the case. If anything, my involvement in the project will be even greater. I can't go into the details, but things are looking very up. It might simply be that, given the organization within Team Kodi, that me formally being a member of it was not a good fit. That structure didn't work, for whatever reason.

Maybe that means what "Team Kodi" is needs to evolve so that people can contribute in their areas without the personality disputes that seem to keep happening. Maybe something with well defined bounties in place. Maybe.

Just remember that the Kodi project is bigger than all of us. We've had people leave before, and there have been even bigger conflicts in the past. That's not to say that there shouldn't be changes or improvements. Rather, I'm just saying that it's not the end of the world. Leaving on behalf of someone else is not really showing support for that person. Instead, stay and help us change things. Help us find ways that we can work together, despite conflicts. To help people find a reasonable balance, where things are fun and not full of conflict and stress.

Like Nate said, this is a situation between reasonable people, who came to reasonable conclusions. For whatever reason, they can't always work together, or maybe they just misunderstood each other. Taking time out to calm down and review is good, but don't give up. The Kodi project will continue, and we could use your help.

[da-anda]

Koying did neither leave the team nor abandon Kodi - all he did is giving up on Android and AML.

[un1versal]

I had no intentions of replying to this thread, since my reasons were made clear in no uncertain terms why I chose this path.

I may as well leave for those reasons alone, I dont actually specify that I believe the code submission/review process to master is 1000% stressful and anger/frustration inducing and for some PR submitter a complete waste and disrespect for the value of their time and contributions note: in some cases as there's valid reasons for closing some contributions. (for those that are closed, some are accepted and forgotten about/ignored, some are just plain left behind), and this irks me, because when you ask for something or have a strong view on something your mostly told in different ways to submit a patch. only to then let the cobwebs take over.

Its clear that other peoples reasons are not so strictly incompatible with mine and because, I also 100% agree with spiff views and fritsch's for the most part, I also felt it was appropriate to choose a side at this time to support.

After reading fritsch's latest post http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=...pid2203872 its clear that its nothing to do with one specific PR or person, but a whole philosophy or project direction. I dont blame people for trying to whitewash over these things, but it detracts from the problem by doing so imo.

But let ignore that for a second as I would like to say something about Nedscott's points.

Its true, I could stay and help the team improve on where I think it could improve, but that's exactly what Ive been trying to in my own way do for last few years sometimes extra passionatly, hence maybe some head butting may have occurred (I dont harbor ill will towards anyone and I quickly put these things behind me), and since there's no improvements only more of the S.S.D.D. one grows tired of banging that drum. So its clear to me in observing what goes on and what most importantly doesn't go on, that this is indeed a dead horse not worth flogging.

The rifts between users/devs is constantly nursed and even when you become a contributor sometimes the rift even increases for various reasons..

So, Im old, Im tired and I dont feel like my place here is a benefit to anyone or myself, and instead of starting to resent people and the project I love, the preferred method is extricate myself from the problem and let you guys deal with it and do whatever.

I wont reply anymore here. Ive nothing left to say that hasn't been said for all parties at one time or another.

So all the luck with the future and decisions and direction and whatever else XBMC Foundation chooses to do. All the best.

PS: Im still a Kodi user for now, but that's it.

[Tolriq]

As un1versal I did try to contribute a lot before, but have given up way earlier due to all those (Well in fact since I was 3 years before, it seems we have the same duration )

I now only do minimal support on JSON thread and check JSON PR to try to avoid catastrophe when I can, or answer to Montellese ping.

But no more by passion like before, just because I do represent 2 million users and feel responsible for them to ensure their needs can continue to be filled. And it's hard to see how things are managed, or when someone that have no idea of what he is talking about comes and say : no do not bump JSON API version just because he find it's cool to say so.

I follow XBMC since Xbox, I do follow code since 2009 and Camelot and have followed users reactions to XBMC move through my tools.

I had reported some stats earlier, but no one seems to have interest, but I'll bring a stat once again to the field.

On 1 million monthly active users that have anonymous stats activated : 65% (Yes sixty five percent) as still using 14.x or earlier. New version adoption rate is slowing down a lot with each versions and it should be an number to try to watch and analyse, because there's reasons behind those.