4K / HDR content

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brazen1 Offline
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Post: #151
Not lecturing. Sorry if it's coming across that way. Just trying to test what is reality vs what I'm told with detail. Let me explain.

My display does not show the HDR symbol when HDR is engaged and working. Instead, the way to tell if HDR is engaged is to go into settings and verify contrast and backlight have been automatically maxed out. My display has memory for various modes. 3D mode can be calibrated. 2D mode can be calibrated. Ports can be calibrated. Etc. All these different modes are independent and different from each other. They all retain their calibrations. None of them are calibrated with maxed backlight and contrast except when in HDR mode which is done automatically.

Here are my real world results:
Playing anything HDR without initially setting anything results in dull playback as expected.

Using madVR with a 3DLUT simulates HDR by adding post processing but does not put my display into HDR mode. (similar but in no way the same as @Gereral1 because the post processing is much more intense than bumping color settings). I verify by looking at contrast and backlight. The mode I am looking at is the 2D calibration. No new mode engages. While the picture is not dull and looks decent, this calibration is not ideal for HDR as is @Gereral1 method. I have to manually max out the contrast to get the full benefit. This does not wash out bright scenes/bright objects and looks as it should. You tell me "A) MadVR autoswitches the TV to HDR mode when playing HDR." This is clearly not the case?

Pros:
No user intervention is needed if you don't mind the picture just good enough to get by with automation in mind.
UHD file format can be navigated allowing playback with MPC.
Detailed post processing can be added allowing HDR playback although not ideal.
Cons:
Ideal playback requires recalibration which will conflict with everything non-hdr.

Using madVR with passthrough enabled and MPC, the picture remains dull. Again, HDR mode never kicks in. I can manually enable Windows HDR switch and the picture is perfect. I check settings and backlight and contrast are maxed out without any intervention. HDR mode is enabled. Playback is perfect using PowerDVD. Playback is perfect with MPC. Playback is perfect with Movies and TV app. Playback is dull with Kodi internal player. (I understand this is why you say to use an unofficial build of Kodi aka a different player. No need. MPC and PDVD are different players I have added seamless within official Kodi GUI). I assume eventually Kodi will support HDR. You tell me "A) MadVR autoswitches the TV to HDR mode when playing HDR." This is clearly not the case? I had to manually turn on HDR in Windows. The desktop is dull. I'm trying to confirm this is normal. I understand why it's dull and want to make sure a GPU upgrade doesn't tackle the problem. I agree it is a MS problem and a GPU upgrade will do nothing unless someone else pipes in with different results.

Pros:
Native HDR at the display is enabled allowing seperate and unique calibration retention without disturbing non-hdr settings.
Perfect with other players. Unfortunately, not Kodi internal at this time. I tried v.18 and still picture was dull and GUI saturated.
Performed with GPU settings at RGB 4:4:4 keeping 0-255 although YCbCr 4:2:2 produces good results also.
Cons:
Windows HDR switch must be enabled manually inhibiting automation via a script modification. No player or software enables this switch automatically despite what I've been told. There's been some promises suggested but I've yet to see anything.

In my case, with my hardware, I use madVR with a 3DLUT and live with a subpar picture simply because I don't want to fumble around with settings and then put those settings back how they were when finished with playback because I'll forget. I also don't want to upgrade to limited special motherboards, CPU's, GPU's, etc for playback of UHD. While stripped UHD HDR mkv's play using anything but Kodi, only MPC allows UHD file structure. Other players require specific hardware and simply won't launch. Should the Windows HDR switch actually automate on and off somehow in the future (script and tagged preferred) it will be a better choice for me and complete the perfection.

I am pretty sure all the necessary adjustments within MPC, LAV, and madVR are where they belong to enable HDR playback either via passthrough or 3DLUT. At no time does HDR enable at display level automatically. I think the important ones to enable are:

Fullscreen exclusive.
Direct 3D 11.
Bitdepth 10 bit.
0-255 levels.
BT.2020

Feel free to correct me. This is why I'm posting and thank you again for your feedback and opinions.

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p750mmx Offline
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Post: #152
(2017-06-18 18:42)noggin Wrote:  [quote='Soli' pid='2605416' dateline='1497800329']
[cut]
AIUI there is no major underlying hardware difference between 2.0 and 2.0a or b so I'd expect compatibility in GPU terms to be software/firmware/driver issue?[cut]
I don't know if I understand this correctly but there is a hardware difference between 2.0 and 2.0a. The first series of the LG Oled EG960V TV's had no possibility to show HDR video when a HDR capable device was connected on one of the HDMI ports. A exchange of the HDMI-print solved that issue and LG did that without any extra costs over here in The Netherlands. The only issue with that was that you must ask them to do that. Later production series of the 960V had the updated HDMI hardware standard on board.

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(This post was last modified: 2017-06-19 21:28 by p750mmx.)
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Gereral1 Offline
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Post: #153
My goal is to provide automation per movie and custom levels so every monitor will look its best. Also my goal is to provide auto hdr function switching by providing hdr.cal file to do it. powerdvd17 can read uhd movie and its metadata and send that metadata to tv to adjust hdr levels. Windows hdr tab is a generic hdr mode that sends hdr10. That's why some users have reported even with that tab switched the movie looks dull still. The tab is only part of the equation. The player must be able to open the video file and read the meta tag data and send it thru the hdmi port to the tv and the tv sees this formatted data and adjusts the levels. according to soli madvr can do this via passthru. Wish I could test this but amd shows a black screen in hdr10 mode. Only custom presenter filter works with amd.
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noggin Offline
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Post: #154
(2017-06-19 21:27)p750mmx Wrote:  
(2017-06-18 18:42)noggin Wrote:  [quote='Soli' pid='2605416' dateline='1497800329']
[cut]
AIUI there is no major underlying hardware difference between 2.0 and 2.0a or b so I'd expect compatibility in GPU terms to be software/firmware/driver issue?[cut]
I don't know if I understand this correctly but there is a hardware difference between 2.0 and 2.0a. The first series of the LG Oled EG960V TV's had no possibility to show HDR video when a HDR capable device was connected on one of the HDMI ports. A exchange of the HDMI-print solved that issue and LG did that without any extra costs over here in The Netherlands. The only issue with that was that you must ask them to do that. Later production series of the 960V had the updated HDMI hardware standard on board.

That doesn't contradict my statement. It could be that the hardware in your TV couldn't be updated by firmware by design. That doesn't mean that applies to all equipment - it just depends how the original equipment has been designed.

My comment was more about sources than displays - and just because the HDMI subsystems may be upgradeable via firmware/software, it doesn't mean that the required processing to add - say - HLG, HDR+10 etc. to a display is feasible (or even if it is - whether manufacturers will decide to do it, rather than make it a 'next year model uprade').
(This post was last modified: 2017-06-20 00:44 by noggin.)
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Gereral1 Offline
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Post: #155
This is what XDR can do....This is in non hdr mode with xdr function with uhd sample lalal land.
XDR setting brightness -22 contrast +77 hue +11 saturation +80. TV set to bt709.


[Image: Untitled-1_zpsrlazwxvd.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 2017-06-21 21:49 by Gereral1.)
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nsnhd Offline
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Post: #156
(2017-06-19 18:07)brazen1 Wrote:  Using madVR with a 3DLUT simulates HDR by adding post processing but does not put my display into HDR mode. (similar but in no way the same as @Gereral1 because the post processing is much more intense than bumping color settings). I verify by looking at contrast and backlight. The mode I am looking at is the 2D calibration. No new mode engages. While the picture is not dull and looks decent, this calibration is not ideal for HDR as is @Gereral1 method. I have to manually max out the contrast to get the full benefit. This does not wash out bright scenes/bright objects and looks as it should. You tell me "A) MadVR autoswitches the TV to HDR mode when playing HDR." This is clearly not the case?

In my case, with my hardware, I use madVR with a 3DLUT and live with a subpar picture simply because I don't want to fumble around with settings and then put those settings back how they were when finished with playback because I'll forget. I also don't want to upgrade to limited special motherboards, CPU's, GPU's, etc for playback of UHD. While stripped UHD HDR mkv's play using anything but Kodi, only MPC allows UHD file structure. Other players require specific hardware and simply won't launch. Should the Windows HDR switch actually automate on and off somehow in the future (script and tagged preferred) it will be a better choice for me and complete the perfection.

Which 3DLUT are you using, is this the one created by a sensor for your TV ?
And the madVR display mode you are using is "Process HDR content by using 3DLUT" ?

(2017-06-20 00:25)Gereral1 Wrote:  My goal is to provide automation per movie and custom levels so every monitor will look its best. Also my goal is to provide auto hdr function switching by providing hdr.cal file to do it. powerdvd17 can read uhd movie and its metadata and send that metadata to tv to adjust hdr levels. Windows hdr tab is a generic hdr mode that sends hdr10. That's why some users have reported even with that tab switched the movie looks dull still. The tab is only part of the equation. The player must be able to open the video file and read the meta tag data and send it thru the hdmi port to the tv and the tv sees this formatted data and adjusts the levels. according to soli madvr can do this via passthru. Wish I could test this but amd shows a black screen in hdr10 mode. Only custom presenter filter works with amd.

I've tried Powerdvd17 with some HDR clips, they looked dull. So, I think Powerdvd17 doesn't work without the HDR tab switch that my htpc doesn't have of course.
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brazen1 Offline
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Post: #157
I'm using generic 3DLUT supplied by @soli convert HDR content to SDR by using external 3DLUT. (bt2020to709-4000to300-0.15blacklevel-0offset)
The other higher nit values crushed the blacks. I entered it in all 3 choices BT.709, DCI-P3, and BT.2020.

Where would I get a 3DLUT so I could try Process HDR content by using 3DLUT? I cannot create one.

Correct, Powerdvd17 doesn't work without the HDR tab switch nor do any other players unless they are post processing (dare I say under assumption) simulated static setting HDR. I also assume native Windows HDR allows reading of metadata and tailors individual scenes vs post processing generic static setting good enough for all scenes but not ideal.

Gereral1 is telling us (again, I assume this what he's conveying) he is playing a UHD HDR from a dedicated player and seeing how the scenes were meant to be seen. He is then playing test files through the PC and comparing the gamut. He is correcting the settings on an individual basis, title by title, to match the dedicated player output by eye. He is then storing the settings in individual .cal files placed next to the title. Upon playback, the settings are sent to the registry making the necessary adjustments to the player controls, and returning to defaults when playback is finished.

Although this method might be considered primitive from the MadVR camp, his individual settings per title are not static and might leave some of us pleasantly surprised? How well independent editing from one author holds up is another story. Just sayin'.....

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nsnhd Offline
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Post: #158
(2017-06-20 16:47)brazen1 Wrote:  I'm using generic 3DLUT supplied by @soli convert HDR content to SDR by using external 3DLUT. (bt2020to709-4000to300-0.15blacklevel-0offset)
The other higher nit values crushed the blacks. I entered it in all 3 choices BT.709, DCI-P3, and BT.2020.

Where would I get a 3DLUT so I could try Process HDR content by using 3DLUT? I cannot create one.

Correct, Powerdvd17 doesn't work without the HDR tab switch nor do any other players unless they are post processing (dare I say under assumption) simulated static setting HDR. I also assume native Windows HDR allows reading of metadata and tailors individual scenes vs post processing generic static setting good enough for all scenes but not ideal.

Gereral1 is telling us (again, I assume this what he's conveying) he is playing a UHD HDR from a dedicated player and seeing how the scenes were meant to be seen. He is then playing test files through the PC and comparing the gamut. He is correcting the settings on an individual basis, title by title, to match the dedicated player output by eye. He is then storing the settings in individual .cal files placed next to the title. Upon playback, the settings are sent to the registry making the necessary adjustments to the player controls, and returning to defaults when playback is finished.

Although this method might be considered primitive from the MadVR camp, his individual settings per title are not static and might leave some of us pleasantly surprised? How well independent editing from one author holds up is another story. Just sayin'.....

I don't think that 'convert HDR content to SDR' can trigger your display into HDR mode automatically, only 'Passthrough HDR' can do it and 'Process HDR...' might do it if @Madshi activated it already (I'm not sure though). For sure that happens only if Microsoft fixes the HDR switch issue.

But what's about the native windows app 'Movies & TV' ? On my htpc, it can play some HDR clips nicely. I think this app doesn't need the HDR tab switch, if so then what's a mystery ?
(This post was last modified: 2017-06-20 17:39 by nsnhd.)
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brazen1 Offline
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Post: #159
I couldn't add a 3DLUT using Process. Passthrough hands the process to something else like the Windows HDR switch. Movies and TV app works depending on GPU settings. I get the same ol' HDR vs non-HDR problems. Most of the time it's over saturated. No settings for it either other than choice of audio/subs. Windows HDR must be on for it to work. Haven't found a shortcut to add it as a playercorefactory external player either but didn't try to hard since I have no use for it other than testing. YMMV.

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Gereral1 Offline
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Post: #160
(2017-06-20 16:47)brazen1 Wrote:  I'm using generic 3DLUT supplied by @soli convert HDR content to SDR by using external 3DLUT. (bt2020to709-4000to300-0.15blacklevel-0offset)
The other higher nit values crushed the blacks. I entered it in all 3 choices BT.709, DCI-P3, and BT.2020.

Where would I get a 3DLUT so I could try Process HDR content by using 3DLUT? I cannot create one.

Correct, Powerdvd17 doesn't work without the HDR tab switch nor do any other players unless they are post processing (dare I say under assumption) simulated static setting HDR. I also assume native Windows HDR allows reading of metadata and tailors individual scenes vs post processing generic static setting good enough for all scenes but not ideal.

Gereral1 is telling us (again, I assume this what he's conveying) he is playing a UHD HDR from a dedicated player and seeing how the scenes were meant to be seen. He is then playing test files through the PC and comparing the gamut. He is correcting the settings on an individual basis, title by title, to match the dedicated player output by eye. He is then storing the settings in individual .cal files placed next to the title. Upon playback, the settings are sent to the registry making the necessary adjustments to the player controls, and returning to defaults when playback is finished.

Although this method might be considered primitive from the MadVR camp, his individual settings per title are not static and might leave some of us pleasantly surprised? How well independent editing from one author holds up is another story. Just sayin'.....


Gereral1 is telling us (again, I assume this what he's conveying) he is playing a UHD HDR from a dedicated player and seeing how the scenes were meant to be seen. He is then playing test files through the PC and comparing the gamut. He is correcting the settings on an individual basis, title by title, to match the dedicated player output by eye. He is then storing the settings in individual .cal files placed next to the title. Upon playback, the settings are sent to the registry making the necessary adjustments to the player controls, and returning to defaults when playback is finished.

This is exactly what im doing. Believe it or not this matches hdr uhd movie and the pc samples played thru mpchc.
Every movie uses a different level of contrast so your adjustmets will vary per movie Ive tested this on 12 other titles....amazing results.
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