menu washed out, 0-255 / 16-235 colour
#16
(2016-04-06, 19:40)huhn Wrote:
(2016-04-06, 18:19)crawfish Wrote:
(2016-04-06, 17:40)huhn Wrote: yet again it's not a passthrough.

Yet again you're making an overly pedantic distinction which isn't helpful, particularly as concerns the OP.
i don't care if you call it "an overly pedantic distinction" it's not an passthrough.

Pedants never care about being pedantic and unhelpful as they derail threads, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:on a properly calibrated screen all WTW and BTB is clipped anyway.

BTB helps one set Brightness, and some amount of WTW is arguably worth keeping. See Spears and Munsil 2nd edition articles on Brightness, Contrast, and Colorspace selection for more. In any case, WTW is always there on my Panasonic plasma, so saying it's "clipped on a properly calibrated screen" is not true.
i'm pretty sure your TV isn't shown WTW with full range input signal.

As I said, I am outputting full range from the card, limited range from players like Kodi, and my TV is set for limited range. I can't tell if you're not paying attention or simply don't understand this configuration.

Quote:i don't have to care about a random disc out there. using simple math WTW and BTB has to be clipped. your screen doesn't care about fine. there are10000 other screens that behavior correctly.

I literally don't know what to say to that.

Quote:
Quote:Moreover, see the ETA in my prior message for a reason why the passthrough mode can still be useful for someone who believes 0-255 video output is just as good.

why not send YCbCr with your BD player?
it will always be treated as limited. the topic isn't talking about external devices like a BD player.so why should the best way to deal with this crashing colors for the desktop?

LOL. You are the one who brought up "BD players!" That's why I thought of it, and I was reminded of the potentially relevant usage case I described in my ETA. And like I said, I don't care about the desktop for my HTPC, which I use only for video. The desktop crush doesn't matter to me, and it won't matter for anyone who also doesn't care. It will never interfere with using the PC for HTPC tasks or even non-color dependent general usage like writing letters and such, and for Kodi, its UI even appears with proper levels when its Limited Range option is selected. Get it? That said, I do use Full Range for video on my gaming PC, because there, I value the consistency between desktop and video.

As for why not send YCbCr from my BD player, RGB Limited is better with my combination of equipment per the Spears and Munsil Colorspace Evaluation pattern I mentioned in my last message. As I also said earlier, my BD player measures the same as my PC this way, which is another plus.

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Quote:there is no need to go deeper on this topic. setting the GPU to limited range is bad fpr quality. and i'm pretty sure we agree on that.

I agree with both those points. However, madshi's post that you quoted talks about the same things I talked about in my prior messages. I covered all 3 of his bullet items, I see no disagreement in what we respectively said, so I don't see why you posted it. The Argyll discussion is really off-topic to boot.

you started with a one word quote from him not me.

LOL. A one word quote in context that directly supported the things I had previously spoken about, and I posted it because you were challenging what I said. Without explanation, you replied with a wall of text from madshi that reiterated what I talked about, and you included a couple of irrelevant paragraphs about Argyll. This makes me think you don't understand this stuff nearly as well as you think you do, as I was left thinking, "Yeah? So? I already said all that." You also managed to bring madVR into the discussion, and there's no indication the OP is using it.

<snip>

There's absolutely no point in continuing this with you. To the OP, ignore the "discussion" between huhn and me and see my replies to you. They are correct, on point, and spell out your two options, including the rationale and advantages and disadvantages. Hope it helps, and I apologize for cluttering your thread with my replies to huhn.
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#17
(2016-04-06, 22:29)stoolzo Wrote: the way I see this is simple, why is the KODI GUI (a desktop windows app) sending 16-235 to the TV, the gui should match the desktop colour space and should only switch to limted for actually playing movies, it makes no sense for KODI to mirror the video setting, it should mirror the desktop setting like every single other app out there.

What Kodi does makes perfect sense and is highly desirable, and I already explained this to you in this message:

2303683 (post)

If you reply directly to it with questions about what I wrote, I may be able to help further.
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#18
(2016-04-06, 22:29)stoolzo Wrote: the way I see this is simple, why is the KODI GUI (a desktop windows app) sending 16-235 to the TV, the gui should match the desktop colour space and should only switch to limted for actually playing movies, it makes no sense for KODI to mirror the video setting, it should mirror the desktop setting like every single other app out there.

Well that's just how it works. I couldn't care less if the menu looks a bit washed out when the video playback is correct.
Mac Mini (2.7GHz, Late 2012, Windows 10, Kodi DSPlayer) | SATV 16GB | Panasonic TX-P50GT50B | Yamaha RX-V675 | Q Acoustics 2010i (FL, FR, Left S, Right S), Q2000ci Center, Q2070si Sub
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#19
(2016-04-07, 10:28)danjames92 Wrote: Well that's just how it works. I couldn't care less if the menu looks a bit washed out when the video playback is correct.

No, it's not "just how it works." What the OP has described, which you seem to be affirming, is not what is expected. In my setup, the UI has never looked washed out when Kodi's Limited Range option is enabled, and I've been using that option ever since it was introduced a few years ago. That said, I gave an example of a possible incorrect configuration at the end of this message that could cause the UI to look washed out while video playback is correct, I gave a way to test it, and I explained two ways it can be fixed:

2303683 (post)

I've since verified that my "IIRC" is correct, and what I described there is indeed what happens when things are set up incorrectly. Unless you guys are experiencing a problem I've not run across, it should be solvable.
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#20
(2016-04-07, 17:11)crawfish Wrote:
(2016-04-07, 10:28)danjames92 Wrote: Well that's just how it works. I couldn't care less if the menu looks a bit washed out when the video playback is correct.

No, it's not "just how it works." What the OP has described, which you seem to be affirming, is not what is expected. In my setup, the UI has never looked washed out when Kodi's Limited Range option is enabled, and I've been using that option ever since it was introduced a few years ago. That said, I gave an example of a possible incorrect configuration at the end of this message that could cause the UI to look washed out while video playback is correct, I gave a way to test it, and I explained two ways it can be fixed:

2303683 (post)

I've since verified that my "IIRC" is correct, and what I described there is indeed what happens when things are set up incorrectly. Unless you guys are experiencing a problem I've not run across, it should be solvable.

ok, you are right, I doubled checked my settings and they were wrong, my ATI video colour output had switched to 0-255 where is should have been limited, you dont get a full white clipping pattern set like this, soon as I spotted that I know what I had done.

However, I now remember why I did this, youtube videos are all now too dark and there is no way to change that I can find, even tried enabling / disabling hardware acc.
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#21
my current settings are as follows, can someone please tell me how these compare with yours, has to be ATI card though.


SETTINGS (A)

ATI pixel - FULL RGB 4:4:4
ATI video/colour/dynamic range 16-235
KODI 16-235
media player classic 16-235
TV 0-255 (LOW)
result - video playback ok - KODI GUI ok
youtube videos too dark.


SETTINGS (B)

ATI pixel - FULL RGB 4:4:4
ATI video/colour/dynamic range 16-235
KODI 16-235
media player classic 16-235
TV 0-255 (HIGH)
result - video playback ok - KODI GUI washed out
youtube ok

I cannot find a combination of settings that dont either break my desktop / youtube colour space or KODI, something is wrong here.

Can someone else with an ATI report back their settings?
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#22
(2016-04-07, 21:49)stoolzo Wrote: ok, you are right, I doubled checked my settings and they were wrong, my ATI video colour output had switched to 0-255 where is should have been limited, you dont get a full white clipping pattern set like this, soon as I spotted that I know what I had done.

Well, that's good.

Quote:However, I now remember why I did this, youtube videos are all now too dark and there is no way to change that I can find, even tried enabling / disabling hardware acc.

In that case, you may want to set everything to 0-255, including video players and the TV. You'll lose BTB and WTW, but all other things being equal, that's preferable to having to fiddle with the TV's dynamic range option all the time. I use my HTPC only for "native" Kodi video using local content and WMC, so I haven't run into this and don't know if there's a way around it.
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#23
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/all_tests.php#black

to get all squares to be visible i have to set my TV to "high" which is 16-235, this is what washed out KODI menu, as kodi, the stop this you have to set KODI to 0-255 which then plays movies in this colour space so then they are wrong.

I cant seem to find the correct combination, I am sure there is a real problem here, I dont think there is an issue with my setup, KODI gui is washed out when my desktop is set to FULL RGB, it simply should not be.
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#24
so we acknowledge this is a problem then, that the KODI gui should not be washed out, think this needs to be logged as a bug
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#25
i'm totally lost now, now keep thinking I understand but then a get another curve ball. Settings are now below and everything functions as it should but i'm concerned that setting KODI to 0-255 will force and extra conversion so i'll be losing something.

ATI pixel - FULL RGB 4:4:4
ATI video/colour/dynamic range 16-235
KODI 0-255
media player classic 16-235
TV 0-255 (HIGH)
result - video playback ok - KODI GUI ok
youtube ok
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#26
you have a small miss understanding.

kodi at 0-255 is correct if you can see all squares in the lagom black test.

try the range test video in kodi and then tell us what you see with kodi at 0-255.

with a full 0-255 setup you only get a RGB conversation. even with a 16-235 setup you would get that RGB conversation too.
you can't avoid that RGB conversation using a PC.
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#27
i'm starting to think nobody really know what is going on here as I here different things from everyone, i've been advised that the software player should always be set to 16-235 and the desktop pixel to full RGB. What isnt clear is what the dynamic range setting on the ATI card is doing, its seems to me this is handing the conversion, the last link in the chain before going to the TV when video acceleration is being used as when I change MPC from 0-255 to 16-235 and back it does nothing at all, it only changes when I change the dymanic range in ATI control panel.

I'm think the colour space setting in the software video player app (MPC / KODI) is irrelevant if you are using hardware acceleration, therefore setting 0-255 in KODI could be correct as its only actually effecting the GUI.

EDIT:, yes kodi is the same, if you disable hardare acc KODI, changing colour space effects both video and gui but only in none hardware accelerated mode.
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#28
can you plz link that source told you to set the screen and desktop to full range but the video to limited range?

first of all can you update your GPU driver?

ATI doesn't exist for years now. and the newest driver doesn't have that option anymore. on top of it a lot of playback software is ignoring it.

so you either want to totally ruin the CR by using full range even at the display but sending limited range to it. that's a wrong setup and every LCD would have a higher CR than your OLED screen would show now.

for correct playback you need to clip WTW and BTB. it doesn't really matter if you want to clip it at the screen like crawfish is doing it or if you clip it directly at the PC.
there are a lot of different reason to use one or the other setup. but 16-235 video 0-255 GPU and 0-255 screen is a wrong setup.

if you want correct colors at the desktop and the player you need to do a limited range to full range conversation there is no way around.

and just one more thing i would have know what you want if you would have told me what you see in the black clipping test and what you want to see ^^.
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#29
@stoolzo:
which kodi version are you using? what ati card do you use. with kodi version 16 its also not working for me. i think full rgb output + limited video isnt working correctly at the moment with ati cards. you can read here: 2261457 (post)

if you want you can test kodi beta 4 (this version works for me)
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#30
i havent updated my ATI driver for a long time, i tend not too if things are working as they should as this machine is only used for HTPC. I do know about the KODI limted bug though, I think i'll stay with my current settings and then when KODI 17 comes out on stable i'll rebuild my HTPC from scratch on windows 10 (currently win7) and go for all new drivers etc.

Thanks to all those who have contributed, I'll report back at a later date when I've got it all setup.

cheers.
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