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Android Zidoo X9S (X-series) 4K HDR / 3D / HD Audio / ZDMC (Kodi fork): Review & Use
(2018-05-08, 17:46)wesk05 Wrote:
(2018-05-08, 13:30)lionne Wrote: As I described in my banding tests here a while back, the test file I have been using:
The World In HDR 4K Demo.mkvhttp://4kmedia.org/the-world-in-hdr-uhd-4k-demo/produced minimal banding when played directly though my TV using the TV's USB 3 input port. I use this file because it has serious banding issues and makes a great test file for banding. On the Zidoo, it suffers from severe banding in some modes, but some modes show minimal banding, exactly as my TV looks when playing it directly using its own media player. So it's not my TV - the Zidoo has banding issues in some modes.

As you can see, some modes show minimal/no banding, so my TV is certainly capable of displaying even problematic files with minimal banding, if sent the right signal. 

If you combine the two statements in bold, you have the answer to this problem. Your TV seems to process YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2 differently. From the many user reports, the consensus is that LG and Sony TVs produce banding with YCbCr 4:2:2 input, whereas, Samsung TVs perform better with YCbCr 4:2:2 input.

Also, the valid output modes for this clip are YCbCr 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. I don't think Zidoo actually outputs 4K 60Hz YCbCr 4:2:2, it falls back to 4:2:0.  If you select YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB, the bitdepth can only be 8-bit at 4K 60Hz which is expected to produce banding from a 10-bit source (if not properly dithered).

This problem is not limited to Zidoo or Realtek. I have seen this with all Amlogic SoCs. 

Big thank you for this explanation. This makes sense and aligns with and explains the results I have been seeing.
Reply
(2018-05-08, 13:30)lionne Wrote:
(2018-05-07, 11:18)sergejskr Wrote:
(2018-05-01, 10:55)ROMERO91 Wrote: I do not need Kodi or Plex, I asked if they are compatible with Zidoo these Apps (kodi, Plex) for knowing .. Because with the native App of Zidoo "home teather" or ZDMC I can connect to my NAS and see everything the same, right?, benefiting: auto refresh/resolution/colorspace switching.

I have decided to buy Zidoo beacuse the RTD chipset gives better image quality than the AMLogic 905D for example.

And another thing... Ziddoo have issues with 10bit HDR content with Banding? (http://forum.zidoo.tv/index.php?threads/...8800.8366/)

I thinking buy the new Dune 4K Pro (with auto refresh/resolution/colorspace switching too) and the mark is first level in image also, no?

Once again, thank you both for solving my doubts Smile      
In regards to bandings, you need to be very careful on relying someone feedback about that, from my own experience and being a member of avsforum for 6 years, calibrating many projectors and learning the curve, I can tell you for sure 80% of users don't understand how to setup TV or a projector correctly regarding the colorspace. 
So I've tested Zidoo x9s with my SONY VML-VW760ES/VW885ES and there are no banding issues at all, so far the picture quality is absolutely the same as OPPO UDP-203 throws out, I didn't run specific tests yet like chroma sampling and other test patterns, but if you calibrate your unit correctly you shouldn't see the bandings. I'm pretty sure others people feedback about banding, was related to their PJ or TV settings not being able to provide good HDR along with BT2020 colorspace and HDR Gamma handling, that's why for instance you should use Tone Mapping as at the moment its best viewing experience than using native Gamma Handling of any Projector or a TV. Now there are many ways how you can achieve tone mapping, but I have Lumagen Pro 4444 and it does the job perfectly. Colours are superb, no bandings all details are present and its crispy as hell.      
 I reported my findings with banding in-depth on the Zidoo forum as well as in here previously. As I described in my banding tests here a while back, the test file I have been using:

The World In HDR 4K Demo.mkvhttp://4kmedia.org/the-world-in-hdr-uhd-4k-demo/

produced minimal banding when played directly though my TV using the TV's USB 3 input port. I use this file because it has serious banding issues and makes a great test file for banding. On the Zidoo, it suffers from severe banding in some modes, but some modes show minimal banding, exactly as my TV looks when playing it directly using its own media player. So it's not my TV - the Zidoo has banding issues in some modes.

Banding on the Zidoo:

HDMI mode: AUTO
Color Space: AUTO / YCbCr 444 / YCbCr 420
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - much less banding
- 12bit - minimal/no banding- AUTO - minimal/no banding

HDMI mode: Auto
Color Space: YCbCr 422 / RGB 444
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - severe banding
- 12bit - severe banding
- AUTO - severe banding


This also applies to the HDR 4k movies I have watched, including The Peanuts CGI film, which is also a good test for banding. As you can see, the modes that have the least banding is YCbCr 444 12bit / YCbCr 420 12bit. If it was my TV, then all modes would have severe banding, as well as playing back the content directly in my TV. As you can see, some modes show minimal/no banding, so my TV is certainly capable of displaying even problematic files with minimal banding, if sent the right signal. 
You cannot do reports like this.

1.  You haven't provided what display you've used.
2.  You haven't provided any screenshots of banding present
3. You should test those things via professional test patterns (HDR 10 Test Patterns ) https://diversifiedvideosolutions.com/dv...dr-10.html or at least AVS HD 709 test patterns known for all video calibrators)
4. You should test this on multiple displays to ensure its not the problem of your display and etc. 
When I have time I'll run several tests as I have all patterns required, will provide some screenshots as well.
Video Chain: SONY VPL-VW760ES/VPL-VW885ES > Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 > OPPO UDP-203/ZIDOO X9S > Elite Screen 16:9 135" 1.1 Gain MaxWhite
Audio: Sony BDMV 9200 5.1 System
My PC Build: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6Q52FS
Image
Reply
(2018-05-09, 09:54)sergejskr Wrote:
(2018-05-08, 13:30)lionne Wrote:
(2018-05-07, 11:18)sergejskr Wrote: In regards to bandings, you need to be very careful on relying someone feedback about that, from my own experience and being a member of avsforum for 6 years, calibrating many projectors and learning the curve, I can tell you for sure 80% of users don't understand how to setup TV or a projector correctly regarding the colorspace. 
So I've tested Zidoo x9s with my SONY VML-VW760ES/VW885ES and there are no banding issues at all, so far the picture quality is absolutely the same as OPPO UDP-203 throws out, I didn't run specific tests yet like chroma sampling and other test patterns, but if you calibrate your unit correctly you shouldn't see the bandings. I'm pretty sure others people feedback about banding, was related to their PJ or TV settings not being able to provide good HDR along with BT2020 colorspace and HDR Gamma handling, that's why for instance you should use Tone Mapping as at the moment its best viewing experience than using native Gamma Handling of any Projector or a TV. Now there are many ways how you can achieve tone mapping, but I have Lumagen Pro 4444 and it does the job perfectly. Colours are superb, no bandings all details are present and its crispy as hell.      
 I reported my findings with banding in-depth on the Zidoo forum as well as in here previously. As I described in my banding tests here a while back, the test file I have been using:

The World In HDR 4K Demo.mkvhttp://4kmedia.org/the-world-in-hdr-uhd-4k-demo/

produced minimal banding when played directly though my TV using the TV's USB 3 input port. I use this file because it has serious banding issues and makes a great test file for banding. On the Zidoo, it suffers from severe banding in some modes, but some modes show minimal banding, exactly as my TV looks when playing it directly using its own media player. So it's not my TV - the Zidoo has banding issues in some modes.

Banding on the Zidoo:

HDMI mode: AUTO
Color Space: AUTO / YCbCr 444 / YCbCr 420
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - much less banding
- 12bit - minimal/no banding- AUTO - minimal/no banding

HDMI mode: Auto
Color Space: YCbCr 422 / RGB 444
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - severe banding
- 12bit - severe banding
- AUTO - severe banding


This also applies to the HDR 4k movies I have watched, including The Peanuts CGI film, which is also a good test for banding. As you can see, the modes that have the least banding is YCbCr 444 12bit / YCbCr 420 12bit. If it was my TV, then all modes would have severe banding, as well as playing back the content directly in my TV. As you can see, some modes show minimal/no banding, so my TV is certainly capable of displaying even problematic files with minimal banding, if sent the right signal.   
You cannot do reports like this.

1.  You haven't provided what display you've used.
2.  You haven't provided any screenshots of banding present
3. You should test those things via professional test patterns (HDR 10 Test Patterns ) https://diversifiedvideosolutions.com/dv...dr-10.html or at least AVS HD 709 test patterns known for all video calibrators)
4. You should test this on multiple displays to ensure its not the problem of your display and etc. 
When I have time I'll run several tests as I have all patterns required, will provide some screenshots as well.  
@sergejskr please post your results when you find some time.

Until then I really appreciate @lionne effort and input to this thread and general knowledge of the equipment. I have LG E6 series with all auto setting on Zidoo X9S. I can confirm Lionne finding. No banding in my case.
Reply
(2018-05-10, 19:32)3DBuff Wrote: @sergejskr please post your results when you find some time.

Until then I really appreciate @lionne effort and input to this thread and general knowledge of the equipment. I have LG E6 series with all auto setting on Zidoo X9S. I can confirm Lionne finding. No banding in my case.
For the results to be relevant, @sergejskr will have to exclude the Lumagen Pro from the display chain. Also keep in mind that he has a $25K projector!
Reply
(2018-05-10, 19:32)3DBuff Wrote:
(2018-05-09, 09:54)sergejskr Wrote:
(2018-05-08, 13:30)lionne Wrote:  I reported my findings with banding in-depth on the Zidoo forum as well as in here previously. As I described in my banding tests here a while back, the test file I have been using:

The World In HDR 4K Demo.mkvhttp://4kmedia.org/the-world-in-hdr-uhd-4k-demo/

produced minimal banding when played directly though my TV using the TV's USB 3 input port. I use this file because it has serious banding issues and makes a great test file for banding. On the Zidoo, it suffers from severe banding in some modes, but some modes show minimal banding, exactly as my TV looks when playing it directly using its own media player. So it's not my TV - the Zidoo has banding issues in some modes.

Banding on the Zidoo:

HDMI mode: AUTO
Color Space: AUTO / YCbCr 444 / YCbCr 420
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - much less banding
- 12bit - minimal/no banding- AUTO - minimal/no banding

HDMI mode: Auto
Color Space: YCbCr 422 / RGB 444
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - severe banding
- 12bit - severe banding
- AUTO - severe banding


This also applies to the HDR 4k movies I have watched, including The Peanuts CGI film, which is also a good test for banding. As you can see, the modes that have the least banding is YCbCr 444 12bit / YCbCr 420 12bit. If it was my TV, then all modes would have severe banding, as well as playing back the content directly in my TV. As you can see, some modes show minimal/no banding, so my TV is certainly capable of displaying even problematic files with minimal banding, if sent the right signal.   
You cannot do reports like this.

1.  You haven't provided what display you've used.
2.  You haven't provided any screenshots of banding present
3. You should test those things via professional test patterns (HDR 10 Test Patterns ) https://diversifiedvideosolutions.com/dv...dr-10.html or at least AVS HD 709 test patterns known for all video calibrators)
4. You should test this on multiple displays to ensure its not the problem of your display and etc. 
When I have time I'll run several tests as I have all patterns required, will provide some screenshots as well.     
@sergejskr please post your results when you find some time.

Until then I really appreciate @lionne effort and input to this thread and general knowledge of the equipment. I have LG E6 series with all auto setting on Zidoo X9S. I can confirm Lionne finding. No banding in my case.   
I will, but unfortunately very busy, that's a quick one for the image quality I've taken on iphone 8 - don't take it too seriously but obviously you can appreciate how the image looks.
Image

Here is better resolution:
Image
Video Chain: SONY VPL-VW760ES/VPL-VW885ES > Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 > OPPO UDP-203/ZIDOO X9S > Elite Screen 16:9 135" 1.1 Gain MaxWhite
Audio: Sony BDMV 9200 5.1 System
My PC Build: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6Q52FS
Image
Reply
(2018-05-10, 19:32)3DBuff Wrote:
(2018-05-09, 09:54)sergejskr Wrote:
(2018-05-08, 13:30)lionne Wrote:  I reported my findings with banding in-depth on the Zidoo forum as well as in here previously. As I described in my banding tests here a while back, the test file I have been using:

The World In HDR 4K Demo.mkvhttp://4kmedia.org/the-world-in-hdr-uhd-4k-demo/

produced minimal banding when played directly though my TV using the TV's USB 3 input port. I use this file because it has serious banding issues and makes a great test file for banding. On the Zidoo, it suffers from severe banding in some modes, but some modes show minimal banding, exactly as my TV looks when playing it directly using its own media player. So it's not my TV - the Zidoo has banding issues in some modes.

Banding on the Zidoo:

HDMI mode: AUTO
Color Space: AUTO / YCbCr 444 / YCbCr 420
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - much less banding
- 12bit - minimal/no banding- AUTO - minimal/no banding

HDMI mode: Auto
Color Space: YCbCr 422 / RGB 444
Deep Color Mode:
- OFF - severe banding
- 10bit - severe banding
- 12bit - severe banding
- AUTO - severe banding


This also applies to the HDR 4k movies I have watched, including The Peanuts CGI film, which is also a good test for banding. As you can see, the modes that have the least banding is YCbCr 444 12bit / YCbCr 420 12bit. If it was my TV, then all modes would have severe banding, as well as playing back the content directly in my TV. As you can see, some modes show minimal/no banding, so my TV is certainly capable of displaying even problematic files with minimal banding, if sent the right signal.   
You cannot do reports like this.

1.  You haven't provided what display you've used.
2.  You haven't provided any screenshots of banding present
3. You should test those things via professional test patterns (HDR 10 Test Patterns ) https://diversifiedvideosolutions.com/dv...dr-10.html or at least AVS HD 709 test patterns known for all video calibrators)
4. You should test this on multiple displays to ensure its not the problem of your display and etc. 
When I have time I'll run several tests as I have all patterns required, will provide some screenshots as well.   
@sergejskr please post your results when you find some time.

Until then I really appreciate @lionne effort and input to this thread and general knowledge of the equipment. I have LG E6 series with all auto setting on Zidoo X9S. I can confirm Lionne finding. No banding in my case. 
I would agree to do professional apples to apples test I would need to eliminate video scaler as Lumagen Pro, but for this particular issue there is no need to do that, as Lumagen doesn't fix the banding if its present.
Video Chain: SONY VPL-VW760ES/VPL-VW885ES > Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 > OPPO UDP-203/ZIDOO X9S > Elite Screen 16:9 135" 1.1 Gain MaxWhite
Audio: Sony BDMV 9200 5.1 System
My PC Build: https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6Q52FS
Image
Reply
hi.
i have zidoo X8 ,FW 2.0.15.
i use ZDMC 17.6.1.
There's a problem with Hebrew subtitling.
If I use KODI 17.6, there is no problem with subtitles, but there is an audio problem.
I'm waiting a long time to fix this problem...
Maybe a KODI team or someone from here, can help how to solve this problem?

Thank you...

Problem with subtitles

Image

Image

Image
Reply
For ZDMC, you're better off asking in the Zidoo forum.
Reply
(2018-05-11, 10:23)sergejskr Wrote: I will, but unfortunately very busy, that's a quick one for the image quality I've taken on iphone 8 - don't take it too seriously but obviously you can appreciate how the image looks. 
You didn't mention what the color space and bit depth was set to on the X9S and Lumagen Radiance Pro.

I don't see much banding with this clip on my Samsung MU8000 UHD TV. The one scene that I do notice it is around 1:54. There are other movie scenes where the banding is more apparent (The Martian, The Revenant). I have to check the Peanuts movie that @lionne has mentioned.

In the past, I have said that this is mainly a display processor related issue. I am having to reconsider that thought. On my Samsung TV, I get severe banding with 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2/4:4:4 inputs from the X9S, but I don't see that with the nVIDIA Shield or Apple TV 4K both of which outputs YCbCr 4:2:2 at 4K 24Hz. It looks like something is not right with Zidoo's output.
Reply
Just did a few tests with 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 with a couple of 4K movies. Not seeing any banding with Epson 5040UB PJ. Same w/nVidia Shield.

Wish I had another HDR capable display to test with, but don't.

Scratch that; seeing banding (see below)
Reply
(2018-05-12, 00:43)hdmkv Wrote: Just did a few tests with 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 & 4:4:4 with a couple of 4K movies. Not seeing any banding with Epson 5040UB PJ. Same w/nVidia Shield.
Wish I had another HDR capable display to test with, but don't.
Can you try these two clips?
The Martian
The Revenant
Reply
Thanks... tried your clips, and I do see banding w/Zidoo Sad. Couldn't believe it, so tried my own full rips of both these movies to make sure. Banding is easily noticeable, even late morning today with ambient light seeping into my family room. Last I watched these two movies was when I had a LG UHD Blu-ray player, so today was the first time testing via Zidoo X9S and nVidia Shield TV...

Click any image for larger versions:
watch gallery


@mirror88, have you guys looked into what is causing this?
Reply
(2018-05-12, 18:11)hdmkv Wrote: Thanks... tried your clips, and I do see banding w/Zidoo Sad. Couldn't believe it, so tried my own full rips of both these movies to make sure. Banding is easily noticeable, even late morning today with ambient light seeping into my family room. Last I watched these two movies was when I had a LG UHD Blu-ray player, so today was the first time testing via Zidoo X9S and nVidia Shield TV...

@mirror88, have you guys looked into what is causing this?
Yep! that's the banding that folks are talking about. On the LG and Sony TVs, it is more apparent with 10-bit input. I get it with 12-bit input on my Samsung TV. It is less obvious with 10-bit input. Apparently, Zidoo has fixed the issue with 10-bit banding in the next firmware. Will have to check the next firmware and see what the effect is on Samsung TVs.
Reply
Yeah, didn't notice it until now, as I've been mostly using nVidia Shield for 4K. On Zidoo, think I last watched 'Ghostbusters' 4K (the original 1984 version) & didn't notice banding (but, wasn't looking for it either).

Hopefully Zidoo fixes issue w/both 10 and 12-bit as the banding looked about the same. With my Epson PJ though, 10-bit gets rendered as 12-bit anyway.
Reply
how's ur new 4k projector?
satisfied?
Reply
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