[robwebset]

Hi All,

With all the stuff that has been going on I thought I would propose a couple of ideas that could prevent any "miss-understanding" over issues in future. These are just thoughts based off of the recent issues, the thoughts behind this post mainly come from some stuff that went on yesterday.

The stuff yesterday was a case where I'd done something really stupid (maybe more naive) - this wasn't some "grey area" - this was just outright wrong. This was pointed out by a mod to initially ask a question to clarify, (to which I responded) then the mod highlighted to me what I'd done wrong. Once the mod had informed me of my error, I rectified it as quickly as possible. Sounds great and smooth doesn't it? What makes this even better is that while the mod was trying to get this error sorted there were a handful of posts of a more aggressive nature and the mod still kept a level head and stated that time should be given (i.e. no knee jerk reaction). It would have been very easy to trash threads etc - but the mod didn't. Note: I'm deliberately not specifying usernames - lets not turn this thread into another blame game. (Use the original thread for that please)

Anyway, back onto my original thoughts, to help keep clarity, maybe the mods would consider something like the following:

Moving Partial Threads (i.e. some posts from a thread)

There have been a few cases where "some posts" were part of a thread, and were moved to the trash - in this case, can we have a message on the original thread something like:

Relocated X number of posts to <location> because <reason>.

This would ensure that there was transparency and we'd know who moved them and why. (I have gone to a thread before and thought - wasn't there more than this previously - what's going on?)

Killing Threads

This is sort of a harder one to deal with, but I have an idea I would like to put out there. I am aware there are lots of post for pirated content that need to be binned - however I have noticed that most of them come from new(ish) users, so how about this:

If there is a post made by a user with less than 100 posts previously - the kodi team can safely trash it if it's seen by them as invalid. (This should cover 99% of cases I hope). And the existing method of trashing remains.

However if there is a user with more than 100 previous posts, then there needs to be 2 mod's in agreement before things get trashed. When the thread is trashed, both mods that agreed get their name assigned to it - and a clear reason.

Fred and Ginger agreed to trash this thread because <reason>.

This "greater than 100 posts" case should make it much clearer for "dispute" type cases rather than things just disappearing - with 2 mods to contact and putting their name to it I'd hope that there would be a clear reason for the trashing posted on the forum. It also gives the threads author 2 different people to try and contact and get more details.

(Obviously the 100 posts could be any number - please keep this thread sensible - lets not post ... yes, lets have 1,000,000 posts as the threshold!)

Thoughts?

Thanks
Rob

edited by Nate: See here for discussion specifically about rob's repo. http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=293373

[Pasado]

+1

[DarrenHill]

In actual fact and not directly related to this whole sorry situation, I have been crafting this weekend some moderator guidelines. They are actually aimed to help our newer team members find their feet more quickly and to make things more consistent and clear both for the moderator team and also for the wider user base.

Your first point is already included in them, although more widely stated that whenever a moderation action is done (thread moving, binning, merging or splitting for examples) that posts are made in them to keep things clear and transparent. You can appreciate that it may not always be possible, but it is certainly desirable and should be normally done.

Concerning the second point, please remember that the binning of threads is not an unreversible action So if a thread is binned but that binning is challenged then it can be undone if justified. Any mod or team member can be approached to request that, it doesn't have to be the original one who binned it. But they will only act as a mediator between the requestor and the original mod, and will not unbin it themselves just because it is requested. We have various communication channels that we can use to talk amongst the team, and it is not uncommon for us to discuss binnings first, or to comment on their happening if it less than a totally clear-cut case.

My personal viewpoint is that having two people concur before action is not practical, and is not necessary in any case except for actions that are not reversible (and we try not to do those anyway except in the case of spam, hence why we use the garbage thread rather than actually deleting anything directly).

Oh and this thread is in the wrong section - it should be in the forum/website discussions section not the kodi discussion one (as it's not discussing Kodi itself). I'll move it there.

[robwebset]

Hi DarrenHill,

Glad to hear the first point is going into the guidelines. For the 2nd point, I'm not sure I 100% agree with you (from my experience). A few comments I would have is as follows:

• This would actually only be a very low percentage of threads, looking at the current Trash section very few would fall into this category (So I don't believe it would be a big burden)
  
• It's harder than you may think to get any form of response from some mods (it's the lack of response to explain the binning of threads that I believe caused the biggest forum user issue in the most recent case). By having 2 names against this small percentage of cases it reduces the chance of this happening.
  
• The extra confirmation from a second mod would help act as a safety net so that if the mod wishing to trash a given thread had actually miss-understood something (or just missed part of the post of a thread) then this could be highlighted by the 2nd mod before anything gets out of hand.
  
• Yes things being un-binned is possible - but is it not better to avoid the bad-feeling by gaining clarity before binning - not after? (As mentioned in the "intro" to these proposals - I believe different mods may have been more drastic in their enforcement from the start - and that would have just pro-longed the issue - not reduced it)
  
• I'd imagine this would be a communication from mod1 to mod2 with something like: "I was going to bin <thread link> with the following reason: <reason>" please can you confirm this for me? - Then the "<reason>" can be pasted into the thread when it is binned - so not much more work for mod1 as they should really provide a reason anyway.
  

Hope this all makes sense, again I want to stress this would only be for a small number of threads that get binned.

Thanks
Rob

P.S. Thanks for moving the thread - not the first time I've posted something in the wrong section! ... think I'm getting better however!

[DarrenHill]

Having the bin itself rather than us just deleting things directly is already enough of a safety net I would say.

And as I said we have other channels for discussion than the public ones here, so if one member of the team cannot be reached then speaking to another and asking them to act as an intermediary may be another option to consider. But of course all of us here have other things in life to do than just sit on the forum (and on those channels), so expecting instant responses to requests is not practical. And indeed form my own experience it is often better in such emotionally charged situations to pause and have a considered response, as the instantaneous knee-jerk one can be very counterproductive.

My personal feeling is that doubling up wouldn't be a workable or practical improvement on what we have (even for a small number of threads, as I'm sure there would be bickering from some posters if it wasn't applied to their thread), but I'll raise it with the rest of the team and see if I'm in a minority.

[Rich.T.]

Hi folks,

As I see it, the most positive thing to have happened so far is the fact that a number of new moderators are being brought on board. This will definitely help to reduce the burden on the existing team members and will allow those with specific responsibilities to spend more time dealing with technical issues, without them feeling that they are neglecting other matters. Also, as has been mentioned, this will make mediation between parties more possible.

Another positive is that some new guidelines are being written in order to help new team members find their feet. These basic guidelines might also help to remind the older hands of some of the basics and help stop some of the drive-by sniping that I have witnessed from some team members. From my short, past experience of being a forum mod elsewhere (I did not have the time to fully commit and thus stepped away), I learned that discussion of threads amongst the team in the private thread discussion forum helped to prevent things from blowing up.

Hi All,

With all the stuff that has been going on I thought I would propose a couple of ideas that could prevent any "miss-understanding" over issues in future. These are just thoughts based off of the recent issues, the thoughts behind this post mainly come from some stuff that went on yesterday.

The stuff yesterday was a case where I'd done something really stupid (maybe more naive) - this wasn't some "grey area" - this was just outright wrong. This was pointed out by a mod to initially ask a question to clarify, (to which I responded) then the mod highlighted to me what I'd done wrong. Once the mod had informed me of my error, I rectified it as quickly as possible. Sounds great and smooth doesn't it? What makes this even better is that while the mod was trying to get this error sorted there were a handful of posts of a more aggressive nature and the mod still kept a level head and stated that time should be given (i.e. no knee jerk reaction). It would have been very easy to trash threads etc - but the mod didn't. Note: I'm deliberately not specifying usernames - lets not turn this thread into another blame game. (Use the original thread for that please)

I've gotta admit; I thought "Oh s**t, what's he gone and done? Was that deliberate?".
I was in the middle of composing a fairly long post and thought that I'd better check to see if there'd been any developments. Upon checking, I found dozens of new comments and that a new crisis had emerged. I'm glad to see that cooler heads prevailed and that the benefit of the doubt was afforded you. That's how it should be done.

Sufficed to say; I trashed my own post, as it wouldn't have helped anyway.

This brings me to another point: It is very difficult to write detailed and considered responses when things are moving so fast on the ground. Perhaps in these situations, it might be useful for a moderator to post something short, simple and friendly, like "I need to go away and think about this. I'll be back soon" and thus commit themselves to a considered response. If a response or decision is taking a while, a moderator should post back, apologise for the delay and politely let the other party know what's going on; like maybe if there is a big discussion going on off-site etc.

We've seen how much frustration and damage can be caused by a mod not communicating for days on end and then posting an unfriendly and curt, or infuriating boilerplate response, thus shutting down all further dialogue.

Anyway, back onto my original thoughts, to help keep clarity, maybe the mods would consider something like the following:

Moving Partial Threads (i.e. some posts from a thread)

There have been a few cases where "some posts" were part of a thread, and were moved to the trash - in this case, can we have a message on the original thread something like:

Relocated X number of posts to <location> because <reason>.

This would ensure that there was transparency and we'd know who moved them and why. (I have gone to a thread before and thought - wasn't there more than this previously - what's going on?)

Killing Threads

This is sort of a harder one to deal with, but I have an idea I would like to put out there. I am aware there are lots of post for pirated content that need to be binned - however I have noticed that most of them come from new(ish) users, so how about this:

If there is a post made by a user with less than 100 posts previously - the kodi team can safely trash it if it's seen by them as invalid. (This should cover 99% of cases I hope). And the existing method of trashing remains.

However if there is a user with more than 100 previous posts, then there needs to be 2 mod's in agreement before things get trashed. When the thread is trashed, both mods that agreed get their name assigned to it - and a clear reason.

Fred and Ginger agreed to trash this thread because <reason>.

This "greater than 100 posts" case should make it much clearer for "dispute" type cases rather than things just disappearing - with 2 mods to contact and putting their name to it I'd hope that there would be a clear reason for the trashing posted on the forum. It also gives the threads author 2 different people to try and contact and get more details.

(Obviously the 100 posts could be any number - please keep this thread sensible - lets not post ... yes, lets have 1,000,000 posts as the threshold!)

Thoughts?

Thanks
Rob

Setting any arbitrary numbers can be problematic when dealing with people, rather than systems.

I can tell you that in my case, I'd definitely fail that test, as I've been a member here almost exactly as long as you have, but have way fewer posts at this point and don't see that changing. That being said, I don't personally see any situation where I'd trigger such a response, anyway. But you never know...

Having the bin itself rather than us just deleting things directly is already enough of a safety net I would say.

And as I said we have other channels for discussion than the public ones here, so if one member of the team cannot be reached then speaking to another and asking them to act as an intermediary may be another option to consider. But of course all of us here have other things in life to do than just sit on the forum (and on those channels), so expecting instant responses to requests is not practical. And indeed form my own experience it is often better in such emotionally charged situations to pause and have a considered response, as the instantaneous knee-jerk one can be very counterproductive.

My personal feeling is that doubling up wouldn't be a workable or practical improvement on what we have (even for a small number of threads, as I'm sure there would be bickering from some posters if it wasn't applied to their thread), but I'll raise it with the rest of the team and see if I'm in a minority.

As I mentioned above, keeping the users informed that "There are things going on behind the scenes and to please sit tight" helps a lot.

Maybe people should be strongly encouraged to get into the habit of setting automated reminders, so that they can do so.

Thanks.

[robwebset]

And as I said we have other channels for discussion than the public ones here, so if one member of the team cannot be reached then speaking to another and asking them to act as an intermediary may be another option to consider. But of course all of us here have other things in life to do than just sit on the forum (and on those channels), so expecting instant responses to requests is not practical.

I'm afraid this is not my experience (or the experience of many others), trying to get an answer on the following is proving impossible:

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=293373

Thread already bumped by 2 other people, I've sent several PM (including one I cc'ed you on) and still nothing.

It does appear once the wall of silence has been met, there is no way to get it removed!

Any news on the statement you said was being worked on 2 weeks ago?

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=...pid2429719

Thanks
Rob

[DarrenHill]

Nate already replied to that PM, hence why I didn't also comment.

To the best of my knowledge it is still being worked on, but people are busy and have other commitments aside from this board so patience is needed. I don't dispute it's been a long time in coming, but things have been somewhat side-tracked by other commitments.

However I will raise it again with the team to see what progress has been made to getting it released.

[robwebset]

Nate already replied to that PM, hence why I didn't also comment.

Yes, unfortunately, still no reply (other than I'll raise it with the others)

Thanks
Rob

[Rich.T.]

I'm still here, at least...

I logged on just after 7am UK time and found your post, Rob.

I composed a reply and when I reached the end (just before I posted), refreshed the thread, to find this unsatisfactory conclusion.

If it had been more positive in nature, I would have laid off; but I think that my comments may be of some sort of benefit... Even if it is just for myself:

Bump.

Hey, Rob.

I've just got in from work and realised that someone has left the living-room kodi box on overnight, so I just I've turned the TV on and opened up Firefox so that I can check something out on the internet. I get the "This is embarrassing..." page and so I restore the previous session...

Three tabs came up and one of them was the VideoExtras Addon thread from this forum. It showed up in the state it had been, sometimee between 9/11 and 9/20 this year. (This was the time when I was working on a modification to this addon, on this machine, and was trying to discuss this with you, on this forum.)

My first reaction was to think "Oh, great; they've restored the support threads!", but then I thought "Oh, hang on; let's refresh the page."



No such luck. I looked further and found that you had just posted.

So...

Please, Team Kodi: Even if you now hate your some of your users and third-party developers and wish that they would just crawl away somewhere and die; can you please tell me what we can do to make this all better?

I want to be able to get back my conversation with Rob, which was interrupted a month ago. At that time, I thought I was having the conversation on a free and open forum. Was I naive?

Look, I just want to say this: I can only speak fo myself when I say that I've been waiting for some sort of resolution to this impasse. Consider me a sad person or someone pursuing some kind of "recreational outrage" if you like, but please do not consider me an outlier when it comes to the way a lot of users and contributors to this project feel.


Okay; It wasn't just that. As I have said elsewhere; I know that the team has a big release deadline coming up and all that, but please do not leave people hanging on like this without at least throwing them the odd bone.

Maybe you should get yourselves a community manager, or something? OK. They do tend to burn out quite quickly, but at least the "community" would get some feedback.

EDITS: Lots of Typos and some tense stuff at the beginning... Sorry.