[jjd-uk]

Can everyone please remember that Estuary was coded from scratch and being the default skin that's a huge effort as everything must be functional with the default skin, other skins can go through 2 or 3 years of development and not be as mature as Estuary is right now.

Is it perfect? no it's not, but what it gives us is an excellent foundation to build on for the future.

Some of the concerns raised here are well understood within the Team, so where something can be improved and fits with the vision for Estuary then it will be looked at, however we won't always necessarily comment in public.

Be rest assured that Estuary will continue to evolve.

[Fail$tyle420]

[And you sound like somebody who can't read, and hasn't bothered to read what has actually been written. Your imagination is not a reasonable substitute for facts.

What part haven't I read....I've read EVERY single post in here. In fact, still waiting for you to enlighten me on who said you can't edit skin files. My imagination has nothing to do with this,I'm simply lumping you into an unintelligent category based off everything you have said here.

I'll repeat some of it although I don't expect you'll read or understand it.

Well, if it's anything like your first response to me, I bet I won't understand it.

Legibility on a TV from an HTPC is not a "desired result" it is not a "special feature", it is a core function. You should not have to know how to "get your desired results" by fiddling with the program. It's the equivalent of getting an OS and finding that it is all in russian and having someone tell you that all you have to do is find and install the english language pack.

YOU are the one with legibility problems. Just because you can't read it, doesn't mean the rest of the world can't. Your eyesight is not a way to judge the quality of a program. Get glasses or an 80" tv if it's such a problem.

I am not talking about ME. I will simply relay the facts as they have been given by the team.

As I SAID, I won't recommend it to anyone who doesn't want to use it on a computer monitor, or who is a geek who will be able to fiddle with it. Regular, garden variety users, who is looking for a media player that can be used on an htpc connected to a tv.

What size is your tv, 12" I mean, everything from 16" monitor to a 65" tv looks just fine, probably need glasses. Again, you don't have to be a geek to edit a few lines of text or instead just use a different skin that has bigger fonts. I mean, it's literally that EASY. If that's too much of a hassle, I've heard of this really cool program called "Windows Media Player" should be right up your alley!


Regardless of your opinion, you have the ability to change whatever you would like to YOUR needs. Take it or leave it. I tried to give you support in editing the skin files, but you went way far off in to left field with your response and am still trying to figure out what you meant.

[nickr]

You sound like those people who never try a new operating system but swear it's crap because you read/heard it from someone/somewhere else. Honestly, the best thing you can do is not spread Kodi's name, as I'm sure the people you know are probably around a similar mindset. If you think it takes "programming skills" to change a few lines of text to get your desired results, then you're a lost cause and might as well just drop it. Please stop using Kodi and make sure your friends know to stay away as well!

And you sound like somebody who can't read, and hasn't bothered to read what has actually been written. Your imagination is not a reasonable substitute for facts.

I'll repeat some of it although I don't expect you'll read or understand it.

Legibility on a TV from an HTPC is not a "desired result" it is not a "special feature", it is a core function. You should not have to know how to "get your desired results" by fiddling with the program. It's the equivalent of getting an OS and finding that it is all in russian and having someone tell you that all you have to do is find and install the english language pack.

I am not talking about ME. I will simply relay the facts as they have been given by the team.

As I SAID, I won't recommend it to anyone who doesn't want to use it on a computer monitor, or who is a geek who will be able to fiddle with it. Regular, garden variety users, who is looking for a media player that can be used on an htpc connected to a tv.

Changing to another skin is not just for geeks, nor is it "fiddling".

[bilgepump]

Maybe you have special needs compared to the rest.

Who are you talking to? Me? Which part of "I'm not talking about ME" isn't clear?

Reading information put there to be read isn't a "special need".

I'm simply lumping you into an unintelligent category

Thanks, that tells me all I need to know.

[bilgepump]

I'm simply lumping you into an unintelligent category

Thanks, that tells me all I need to know.

[trogggy]

I'm simply lumping you into an unintelligent category

Thanks, that tells me all I need to know.

I'm simply lumping you into an unintelligent category

Thanks, that tells me all I need to know.

Does smiling when I see that written twice make me a bad person?

[spank]

all this name calling and belittling makes me think of grade school again.

[nickr]

Some people are going to get a warning or even ban if this childish behaviour continues.

[widardd]

Wow, this took off, calm down everybody!

Since I saw some devs in here, has there been a public discussion within the team about the design choices when developing Estuary I could have a look at?
Or maybe just something like design goals you agreed upon?

I would like to understand.

[phil65]

Wow, this took off, calm down everybody!

Since I saw some devs in here, has there been a public discussion within the team about the design choices when developing Estuary I could have a look at?
Or maybe just something like design goals you agreed upon?

I would like to understand.

I can try to explain, but I am far from sure if explaining will help in this case.

For more "conservative" designs there are basically two choices:
- A framed look (this is what we have now) which uses a dedicated space for content. (Eminence is a good example for this approach, too)
- Makin things frameless ("overflow"), (Aeon Nox is a fine example for this approach in most areas)

Both layouts are totally valid, some like 1) more, some prefer 2). Me, as main author of this skin, likes both, and for this first iteration for a new default skin I chose option 1). You seem to be bound to option 2) (which is a pity), so estuary is no good fit for you. But, tell you what, kodi supports skins! This totally new invention allows users to pick what they like best depending on their highly subjective design preferences.

No, we didnt discuss design choices in public, totally by purpose. There is an unbelievable amount of noise when it comes to design since every person on earth seems to think that they are good UX/UI designers (like shown in this thread). After all, it´s easy to have an opinion on this topic.

Since you asked for it, here is a small excerpt of the list of requirements which played a role when developing:

Technicals:
- Do not rely on python scripts
- Use kodi theme system properly
- Use kodi color system properly
- good performance
- display library content on main menu
- skin code which is easy to maintain, easy to mod.
- 21:9 support (WIP)

general look:
- Easy to use on first use: Users should be guided to setting up libraries properly etc
- Always move visual focus into the direction the user presses, no press-left-to-focus-buttons-at-bottom anymore
- For font sizes / spacing etc: be in line with the major UX guidelines out there (Amazon, Google, Apple), but dont try to look like a clone.
- dont clutter the screen with needless information
- consistent animations
- use kodi colors for the default color theme
- symmetry

misc:
- Make sure that some few whiners come out of their holes to complain.

Estuary ticks all these boxes.


Before you now start to continue complaining, you might have noticed that I used the term "first iteration". So if youre lucky, then there might be something for you in the not-so-distant future.

[nickr]

Thanks for your input @phil65. It was great to hear from the author.

Have you any comment to make on readability? I only have krypton on my test machines, which are desktop setups, so I haven't had to read Estuary at a distance.

[widardd]

For more "conservative" designs there are basically two choices:
- A framed look (this is what we have now) which uses a dedicated space for content. (Eminence is a good example for this approach, too)
- Makin things frameless ("overflow"), (Aeon Nox is a fine example for this approach in most areas)

Both layouts are totally valid, some like 1) more, some prefer 2). Me, as main author of this skin, likes both, and for this first iteration for a new default skin I chose option 1). You seem to be bound to option 2) (which is a pity), so estuary is no good fit for you. But, tell you what, kodi supports skins! This totally new invention allows users to pick what they like best depending on their highly subjective design preferences.

I understand that getting as much information on the screen as possible is not the end all be all. But couldn't there just be a button for "info mode" just like "expert mode" in the system menu?

general look:
- Easy to use on first use: Users should be guided to setting up libraries properly etc

That's definitely important, but I somehow get the feeling this makes Estuary something everyone has to get rid of as soon as your comfortable with the software.

- For font sizes / spacing etc: be in line with the major UX guidelines out there (Amazon, Google, Apple), but dont try to look like a clone.

Why?

- dont clutter the screen with needless information

I recently learned that "bitrate" is needless information in Kodi17, too. Now I have 2 buttons for codecinfo and there's still information missing.

Before you now start to continue complaining, you might have noticed that I used the term "first iteration". So if youre lucky, then there might be something for you in the not-so-distant future.

Was my initial post that hurtful? I am sorry, honestly. Estuary looks nice and all, but instead of 14 movies I get to see 10 movies now and the text is hard to read. (32" @ 3m)
Estuary is like a tiny hole you have to peek through for users with a big library.

Thank you very much for sharing this!

[phil65]

For more "conservative" designs there are basically two choices:
- A framed look (this is what we have now) which uses a dedicated space for content. (Eminence is a good example for this approach, too)
- Makin things frameless ("overflow"), (Aeon Nox is a fine example for this approach in most areas)

Both layouts are totally valid, some like 1) more, some prefer 2). Me, as main author of this skin, likes both, and for this first iteration for a new default skin I chose option 1). You seem to be bound to option 2) (which is a pity), so estuary is no good fit for you. But, tell you what, kodi supports skins! This totally new invention allows users to pick what they like best depending on their highly subjective design preferences.

I understand that getting as much information on the screen as possible is not the end all be all. But couldn't there just be a button for "info mode" just like "expert mode" in the system menu?

Nope, there cant be. It would make skin code much much more complex to allow both of the mentioned choices at the same time.

general look:
- Easy to use on first use: Users should be guided to setting up libraries properly etc

That's definitely important, but I somehow get the feeling this makes Estuary something everyone has to get rid of as soon as your comfortable with the software.

Well, feedback in estuary forum as well as even partly in this thread seems to suggest that yours is not a majority opinion.

- For font sizes / spacing etc: be in line with the major UX guidelines out there (Amazon, Google, Apple), but dont try to look like a clone.

Why?

Why what?

- dont clutter the screen with needless information

I recently learned that "bitrate" is needless information in Kodi17, too. Now I have 2 buttons for codecinfo and there's still information missing.

Totally true, for the average user bitrate is not really important. Most probably wont even be able to tell you what bitrate means exactly. I wouldnt consider it a must-have.

Before you now start to continue complaining, you might have noticed that I used the term "first iteration". So if youre lucky, then there might be something for you in the not-so-distant future.

Was my initial post that hurtful? I am sorry, honestly. Estuary looks nice and all, but instead of 14 movies I get to see 10 movies now and the text is hard to read. (32" @ 3m)
Estuary is like a tiny hole you have to peek through for users with a big library.

Thank you very much for sharing this!

Nope, it wasnt hurtful, just uneducated. If someone calls empty spaces "wasted space", then you know that you arent talkin to experts.
Experts work like the creator of this thread here: http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=289449 and then get included in the process.

[phil65]

Thanks for your input @phil65. It was great to hear from the author.

Have you any comment to make on readability? I only have krypton on my test machines, which are desktop setups, so I haven't had to read Estuary at a distance.

Font sizes are at the lower end of what common design guidelines recommend. That might not be fine enough for every single user, but it´s fine for the largest part and thus fine for a first iteration of a new default skin. That doesnt mean that we might not tweak it here and there in the future.

[widardd]

Nope, it wasnt hurtful, just uneducated. If someone calls empty spaces "wasted space", then you know that you arent talkin to experts.

I honestly expected way more reflection, not just "it's popular!" or "google does it, too!".

How's that going to convince anyone of your approach or reduce the amount of backlash from design plebeians?

That attitude led to very questionable presidents, if you know what I mean..