This Classical music tagging is killing me....
#1
Have a ton of questions regarding the tagging of my Classical music CD's but some of them belong on other forums...ie Musicbrainz and mp3tag, so I'll try to only ask Kodi related here.

Preamble is:
I'm using Kodi 17.4 on Win10 and an Android tablet. After getting the impression that switching to id3v2.4 and having at least some Musicbrainz info (artistid and albumid) isn't something I need to avoid anymore I decided that I'd at least do a little test on the "weakest link" of my collection.....aka Classical.

Initial questions:
1. If I'm getting the following type of info with what I'm doing "workflow wise" (basically Musicbrainz 'Classic Extras' plugin), is my advancedsettings.xml (in my debug log - https://paste.ubuntu.com/25549569/) adequate/correct? (Just so you know, my question over at MB will be "why the change in separators from ; to \\?)

Artist: Leopold Stokowski; London Symphony Orchestra (orchestra); The Norman Luboff Choir (choir vocals)\\Johann Sebastian Bach
Artistsort: Stokowski, Leopold; London Symphony Orchestra; Norman Luboff Choir, The\\Bach, Johann Sebastian
Artists: Johann Sebastian Bach; Leopold Stokowski\\London Symphony Orchestra (orchestra); The Norman Luboff Choir (choir vocals)

2. I'm a little confused about the "unrecognized ID3 frame detected:" entries starting around Line 619 in the log. I get that some are iTunes stuff, but shouldn't TIT1 and TIT3 be recognized?

3. Am I correct in thinking that, other than being possible clutter, the "unrecognized user text tag detected:" entries aren't anything to worry about?...again most are from the MB plugin that I decided to use because the $setmuti(artists..... ) script didn't seem to work.

Anyway, thanks in advance
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#2
I have no idea what the Musicbrainz 'Classic Extras' plugin does, and I have had no problem tagging classical music in Picard without it, but I can answer about Kodi Smile

No you don't need to avoid Musicbrainz tags any more.

2) & 3). The "unrecognized ID3 frame detected:" and "unrecognized user text tag detected:" entries in the log are nothing to worry about. Kodi uses a number of tags, see http://kodi.wiki/view/Music_tagging#Tags_Kodi_reads but adds log messages for some of the tags it encounters but does not do anything with. It is a little inconsistent what it logs and what it doesn't and is something I must get around to reviewing. For now just think of it as clutter.

It is worth including some tags that Kodi does not process yet, because they may get added in future versions. A good example of this is that TXXX:MusicBrainz Release Group Id, ARTISTSORT (TSOP), ALBUMARTISTSORT (TS02) and COMPOSERSORT (TSOC) have already been added to v18. The various date tags are also in my plan, with TIT1, TIT3, TXXX:Work, TXXX:MusicBrainz Work Id after that maybe. The many other extra TXXX custom tags that plugin has added are unlikley to be used, but they do no harm either.

1) Your advancedsettings.xml looks fine. And id3 v2.4 is a good choice for mp3 tagging format, only use v2.3 if you have some other old media player you want to use too that can't cope with v2.4
Quote:Just so you know, my question over at MB will be "why the change in separators from ; to \\?
I don't think they have. Id3 v2.4 format supports multiframe tags e.g. ARTIST (TPE1) having multiple values. The tagging software then displays these multiple values as a single value in various ways. So actually there is neither \\ or ; in the tag but separate values.

I am going to guess that the plugin is adding "(orchestra)" and "(choir)", and that is not good if that is in the ARTIST and ARTISTSORT tags. Picard by default will add that detail to the TMCL tag, and Kodi will read it into roles.

My advice is to stop using that plugin. The only thing you really need is to have the ALBUMARTISTS (note the s) tag added.

This is the script settings I use in Picard (found under options > options > Advanced >> Scripting) is
Code:
$setmulti(albumartists,%_albumartists%)
$set(date,$left(%originaldate%,4))
$unset(isrc)
$unset(asin)
$unset(barcode)
$unset(script)
$unset(catalognumber)
$unset(media)
$unset(language)
That also skips the ASIN, barcode etc. stuff that Picard adds by default. It does no harm, but I considered it clutter I would never ever use.

Good luck, and come back with any other questions.
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#3
Thanks for the quick reply Dave.
First, it looks like I had at least two typos in my original post:
1. The MB plugin is actually called "Classical Extras" - and yes, it did add the (orchestra) and (choir) to at least the Artist and Artists frames.
2. The script I tried in MB (thanks to one of your other post here) was your $setmulti(albumartists,%_albumartists%) and not $setmulti(artists, etc....

Anyway, I'll disable the plugin and give your scripts another try - btw, thanks for the additional $unset(xxx) ones.

As for coming back with more questions....here I amBig Grin ........

1. Am I correct in thinking that instead of doing a complete reinstall of Kodi in order to remove prior scraping info, all I have to do is erase the MyMusic60.db file?

2. Do I correctly understand whats written at the link you gave me as saying that if Musicbrainz had created an 'Ensemble' tag instead of an 'Ensembles' tag (Line 643 of my log file) Kodi 17.4 would use it? Maybe even create a role using that tag?

3. In other posts you've discussed portable installs and I currently have a 17.4 version on a thumb drive that I'm using while I check out this 3v2.4/Musicbrainz stuff and I'm wondering ......... a) Any reason "music tagging-wise" that I should do anything more than a "minimal" install? and b) Any reason I can't install a pre release v18 alongside the 17.4 on the same thumb drive?

Thanks again, Bryan
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#4
(2017-09-17, 15:58)Bryan_W Wrote: 1. Am I correct in thinking that instead of doing a complete reinstall of Kodi in order to remove prior scraping info, all I have to do is erase the MyMusic60.db file?

2. Do I correctly understand whats written at the link you gave me as saying that if Musicbrainz had created an 'Ensemble' tag instead of an 'Ensembles' tag (Line 643 of my log file) Kodi 17.4 would use it? Maybe even create a role using that tag?

3. In other posts you've discussed portable installs and I currently have a 17.4 version on a thumb drive that I'm using while I check out this 3v2.4/Musicbrainz stuff and I'm wondering ......... a) Any reason "music tagging-wise" that I should do anything more than a "minimal" install? and b) Any reason I can't install a pre release v18 alongside the 17.4 on the same thumb drive?

1. You can delete the db file, but works just as well in Kodi to go to Music - files and delete the music source (from its context menu) you get a yes/no dialog asking if it should remove the data and select "yes"..

2. I find TMCL is the only tag frame to use, other than TCOM for classical.

3. Using MB-style tagging, it's vital to have ALBUMARTISTS and the corresponding MBIDs.

4. I only use portable "-p" installs on windows, regardless if it's testing or production. On my dev setup I have about a dozen different Kodi versions / add-ons mix. So I can keep vanilla installs as well as more add-on loaded installs. Some skins are more music-oriented so might want to try a few. There's also a couple music addons such as artist slideshow that may be of interest.

scott s.
.
maintainer of skin  Aeon MQ5 mods for post-Gotham Kodi releases:
Matrix see: Aeon MQ5 Mod Martix release thread
Leia see: Aeon MQ5 Mod Leia release thread
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#5
(2017-09-17, 15:58)Bryan_W Wrote: 1. The MB plugin is actually called "Classical Extras" - and yes, it did add the (orchestra) and (choir) to at least the Artist and Artists frames.
That is a bad thing Sad
I guess it is work around for older media players that don't read v2.4 tags, put the information in the correct tag and Kodi will use it. For mp3 id3 v2.4 you indicate who is the orchestra, choir, or drummer etc. using the TMCL tag (equivalent is PERFORMER in vorbis). This tag takes pairs of values <artist name, role>. I think Picard calls this tag performer, it handles the pairing syntax for you and it will populate it without additional plugins.

Your new questions:

1) Scott is correct. The delete db file approach is effective too, but will leave the list of media sources in sources.xml, and so it will look like to have music added when you don't. But I would also add that after removing sources to completely clean the db then go to settings > media > library > music section and clean library too. Make sure you scroll down the screen and get the music one.

2) No, not with mp3, for that tag format the roles come from TMCL and TIPL tags. The ID3 standard imples one is used for musicicans and the other for the other ways people can be invovled e.g. "engineer", but either can hold anything - an artist and role pair and role can be anything.

3) Like Scott said portable is very useful, and I have several versions of Kodi installed at any one time. So
a) no AFAIK music does not need more than "minimal" Kodi.
b) Yes you can do that but use portable mode.
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#6
1) And don't forget all the orphaned artwork left in textures.db and thumbnails folder.
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#7
Since I seem to be falling behind in my replies, I'll just put all my "thanks messages" in one post.....Thank you one and all!

@scott - Looks like I'll definitely be doing at least a couple of skin/addon test installs. Actually, part of the reason I got into this whole re-tagging project is that I was trying to get Artist Slideshow to show me more than just one "artist" while playing classical/compilations/collaborations without having orchestra/performer jpg's in my "composer art folder"....... Figured having MB ID's for all of them couldn't hurt even if my goal was not possible.

@Dave -
Quote:That is a bad thing ...
Yeah, didn't really like seeing the stuff in parentheses from the start but I figured that if there wasn't a setting in the MB plugin to not include it in the first place, I could use mp3tag to remove 'em once I had refined my "game plan".
Speaking of the plugin, I did take your advise and reprocessed my test cd's through MB without using it and Kodi seemed be glad that I did Wink......Looks like I'll proceed with MBID'ing the rest of my (small) collection of classical cd's without it.
Having said that, since even its author says its a work in progress, I think I'll still keeps tabs on its revisions and perhaps revisit its usage at some point in the future...at the very least to maybe cut/paste some of it's extended info into nfo files.
Anyway, in case you or anyone else (perhaps just for kicks) is interested, here's the projects github page:
https://github.com/MetaTunes/picard-plug.../Readme.md

@Karellen - Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks again for all your help. If anyone needs an "average joe" tester on v18 let me know.
Bryan
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#8
(2017-09-18, 16:21)Bryan_W Wrote: ...Actually, part of the reason I got into this whole re-tagging project is that I was trying to get Artist Slideshow to show me more than just one "artist" while playing classical/compilations/collaborations without having orchestra/performer jpg's in my "composer art folder"....... Figured having MB ID's for all of them couldn't hurt even if my goal was not possible.
Art for various artist compilations - album of songs each by different artists - is not a problem, even vanilla Kodi (no addons) will show the art for the song artist.

Art for collaborations - albums by more than one artist, common in classical music with composer, onductor, orchestra but happens in pop too - is an issue. Kodi's algorithm for locating where it expects artist art to be fails so you end up with same art of all "collaborators", and AFAIK even art addons only look at the first album artist. There my be addons/skins that cope now, but things will get better with v18

Having MB ids is a good idea, it will make looking up online art and info much quicker and accurate.

Quote:Yeah, didn't really like seeing the stuff in parentheses from the start but I figured that if there wasn't a setting in the MB plugin to not include it in the first place, I could use mp3tag to remove 'em once I had refined my "game plan".
Well you could manually edit later, but I would just run Picard again without the plugin.

Quote:If anyone needs an "average joe" tester on v18 let me know.
Bryan
Well there is often something to test. Keep an eye on my development thread https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid...pid2558589 when you feel like doing testing. I have not found a reasonable way to notify in one go all the people that offer assistence, so I just post in that thread and hope they browse by. Smile
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#9
(2017-09-18, 16:21)Bryan_W Wrote: @scott - Looks like I'll definitely be doing at least a couple of skin/addon test installs. Actually, part of the reason I got into this whole re-tagging project is that I was trying to get Artist Slideshow to show me more than just one "artist" while playing classical/compilations/collaborations without having orchestra/performer jpg's in my "composer art folder"....... Figured having MB ID's for all of them couldn't hurt even if my goal was not possible.

Artist slideshow works off of "artist" and if you use MB style guide, that means composer. That's not all that useful, in particular the "discography" AS gets is kind of meaningless in this context. I doubt the sources AS scrapes from will have much (maybe any) art / similar artists / discography for classical music, so manipulating your tags for the benefit of AS (it does have an option to parse artists out of the artist string) may not achieve much.

The core problem I see with classical is the needed hierarchy is the "work" for which the composer is the key, the "performance" which is a specific instance of a "work" for which conductor/performer(s)/time-place is the key, and the "release" which is a logical bundling of a performance and possibly other performances.

Some of this hierarchy is also useful for other music where live and studio performances exist, as well as covers.

scott s.
.
maintainer of skin  Aeon MQ5 mods for post-Gotham Kodi releases:
Matrix see: Aeon MQ5 Mod Martix release thread
Leia see: Aeon MQ5 Mod Leia release thread
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#10
Dont' forget you can also tick the option in Musicbrainz Picard to remove the old tag and create a brand new one.

I'd always recommend this way if you mess up with plugins or get confused with tagging.

I had a similar experience with VA artists and feat. until DaveBlake fixed it in Kodi Smile
Image Image
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#11
Hello all -
Just thought I'd post to say that I haven't disappeared. I've been digesting your comments, performing some Kodi Portable Tests in addition to some tagging tests. On top of that (as you'll see below) I've had to spend time trying to figure out if I should upload my screenshots to imgur or postimg.org.Wink

Due to time constraints (and due to the fact that I don't want to continue to prove I'm an idiot) I'm basically just going to do a little "sharing" in this post.

First......
As a reference, here's the MusicBrainz page for one of the CD's I've been using for testing purposes. https://musicbrainz.org/release/eeb3e67b...d4dc156e79

As a side note (both funny and sad)...... when I went to find the above link to post here, I saw for the first time MB's usage of "(an Alfred Scholz pseudonym)" after some of their entries. Being clueless, I surfed the web only to find that apparently, a lot of classical cds have "fictional" conductors and orchestras listed...... and here I am trying to get my precious tags perfect Confused

Anyway..... here are some (mp3tag) screenshots showing:
a) The tags I'm getting using the Musicbrainz 'Classical Extras" and
b) The tags I'm getting using the $setmulti(albumartists,%_albumartists%) Tagger Script.
c) The "mp3tag extended view" of the same track with each setup

watch gallery


Still going to do some more testing, but about the only thing I can say so far is that neither seems to be producing what I expected. I'll post back when I have a littl better grasp of the situation.
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#12
I think the many "Alfred Schultz" is possibly the worst artist data issue in MB, try not to think too much about it.

What that Picard plugin does with adding bracked data within the artist tag is a disaster, don't use it. That role information is in what Mp3tag is calling "MUSICIANCREDITS" (that is the TMCL tag), and Kodi will read it from there.

The many non-standard tags that plugin adds are not read by Kodi, and I doubt any other media player.
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#13
(2017-09-22, 07:55)DaveBlake Wrote: I think the many "Alfred Schultz" is possibly the worst artist data issue in MB, try not to think too much about it.

Big Grin Definitely going to follow your advice on that one.

(2017-09-22, 07:55)DaveBlake Wrote: What that Picard plugin does with adding bracked data within the artist tag is a disaster, don't use it. That role information is in what Mp3tag is calling "MUSICIANCREDITS" (that is the TMCL tag), and Kodi will read it from there.

Don't intend on having bracketed data, just left it there to show what I got "out of the box" when using the plugin.

(2017-09-22, 07:55)DaveBlake Wrote: The many non-standard tags that plugin adds are not read by Kodi, and I doubt any other media player.

Understood.
However, it is a little discouraging (especially since the "$setmulti script" doesn't seem to be doing anything for me) that the one method gives too much information and the other one not enough.
I guess I'll just have to settle on a slightly less automated system by doing a little "mixing and matching" between the two...... either that or just be satisfied with scraping the MBID's and call it done .Wink
Thanks again....Bryan
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#14
(2017-09-22, 21:20)Bryan_W Wrote: However, it is a little discouraging (especially since the "$setmulti script" doesn't seem to be doing anything for me) that the one method gives too much information and the other one not enough.
That line of script simply creates ALBUMARTISTS (note the s) tags, look at tagging a CD that has multiple album artists. There is nothing else "extra" that is needed.

I am a bit mystified what you think is missing without that messy "Classical" plugin?
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#15
(2017-09-23, 08:54)DaveBlake Wrote:
(2017-09-22, 21:20)Bryan_W Wrote: However, it is a little discouraging (especially since the "$setmulti script" doesn't seem to be doing anything for me) that the one method gives too much information and the other one not enough.
That line of script simply creates ALBUMARTISTS (note the s) tags, look at tagging a CD that has multiple album artists. There is nothing else "extra" that is needed.

Had already tried the script on some "non-classical" cds....... it worked just as I expected. Unfortunately, I was hoping that with my classical cds it would treat Orchestra/Conductor/Performers as album artists along with the composers. The way I see it, the plugin gets me closer to that goal - Unfortunately, at least for now, the plugin is also including the unwanted "bracketed info". I've raised the issue at the Musicbrainz forums, but have not resolved it yet. Responses over there aren't as rapid as they are here.Wink

(2017-09-23, 08:54)DaveBlake Wrote: I am a bit mystified what you think is missing without that messy "Classical" plugin?

Aside from the above(at least to my way of thinking) the plugin is giving me more in depth Work/Movement information.
I understand from your prior post that Kodi won't read that information, but from what the internet tells me, iTunes is increasingly taking advantage of that info. Since I still have an iPod (however rarely used these dys) I'm not sure I don't mind Musicbrainz adding it to my files.

Finally, the plugin breaks down genre data into what I would call "sub genres".....ie, instead of calling everything "Classical" it generates things like "Classical; Orchestral; Concerto; Violin" per file. This "automated" info is useful to me because the truth is I really don't know a lot about classical music. Unless it tells me, I can't look at a tracks title and know it's a violin piece.....Heck, up until a few days ago I thought Francesco Macci was a real conductor and Musici di San Marco was a real orchestra.Wink
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