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Intel Gemini Lake
#16
The Gemini supports Intel InTRU 3D?
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#17
https://liliputing.com/2018/01/intel-jun...-news.html

Image
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#18
Interesting article, thanks.
I've waited this long to upgrade my aging htpc, might as well wait a bit longer to see what the coffee lake nucs look like and cost.
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#19
any info about cec? will you still need external cec?
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#20
The 1st of the Asrock Gemini Lake boards have been released.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/J4105-ITX/index.asp
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#21
https://www.gigabyte.com/Press/News/1588

Gigabyte is also releasing Gemini Lake motherboards but no product pages are up yet.
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#22
(2017-12-28, 20:39)tiqq2 Wrote:
(2017-12-27, 17:01)honcho Wrote:  There is no HDR on apollo/gemini lake. 
Yes, looks like Intel failed again Sad
Intel confirmed that they do not plan to support HDR processing workflows in Gemini Lake... 
  People, don't panic. You are all quoting one single source regarding missing HDR support on Gemini Lake. This is what I think about that:
  1. The statement came from a random guy who is talking about "HDR processing workflows". It's not even clear what that means. Maybe he mixed up "HDR videos" with "HDR photo workflows" (which will of course suck on low-end CPUs such as Gemini Lake).
  2. There is no actual proof that HDR will not be supported
  3. Datasheets & iGPU specs tell a different story. In fact the Gemini Lake GPUs have the same microarcitecture as the Kaby Lake GPUs (which is Gen9.5). They even have the benefit of Gen10 display connections, which means native HDMI 2.0 for us. Furthermore, if you look at the specs, you'll see that the UHD Graphics 605 from the Pentium silver models has support for decoding [email protected]@10bit and [email protected]@10bit.

You can have a look at the actual facts here:

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/uhd_graphics/605
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/micro...dmont_plus
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/micro...res/gen9.5

Although nobody was able to actually try HDR support on Gemini Lake yet I would still suppose that it should be working. As it was said earlier, as long as the hardware is able to decode the material, HDR should be working. And Gemini Lake most certainly is capable of 4K decoding with 10bpc, both for HEVC and VP9. Of course we need support from the OS and the driver to hand over the HDR metadata to the display (once per movie, as we are not talking about dynamic HDR here), but compared to decoding this is a minor software-only thing.

- direx
Main: CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K, GFX: AMD RX480 8GB OC, Debian Linux
HTPC: CPU: Intel Core i5-3475S, GFX: Intel HD4000, Gentoo Linux (Kernel 4-stable), Kodi with [email protected] and HD audio, AVR: Denon X6300H with 7.1.4 setup, TV: Samsung [email protected]
Fun: Microsoft XBox, with XBMC :)
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#23
(2018-01-24, 20:11)direx Wrote:
(2017-12-28, 20:39)tiqq2 Wrote:
(2017-12-27, 17:01)honcho Wrote:  There is no HDR on apollo/gemini lake. 
Yes, looks like Intel failed again Sad
Intel confirmed that they do not plan to support HDR processing workflows in Gemini Lake... 
  People, don't panic. You are all quoting one single source regarding missing HDR support on Gemini Lake. This is what I think about that:
  1. The statement came from a random guy who is talking about "HDR processing workflows". It's not even clear what that means. Maybe he mixed up "HDR videos" with "HDR photo workflows" (which will of course suck on low-end CPUs such as Gemini Lake).
  2. There is no actual proof that HDR will not be supported
  3. Datasheets & iGPU specs tell a different story. In fact the Gemini Lake GPUs have the same microarcitecture as the Kaby Lake GPUs (which is Gen9.5). They even have the benefit of Gen10 display connections, which means native HDMI 2.0 for us. Furthermore, if you look at the specs, you'll see that the UHD Graphics 605 from the Pentium silver models has support for decoding [email protected]@10bit and [email protected]@10bit.

You can have a look at the actual facts here:

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/uhd_graphics/605
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/micro...dmont_plus
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/micro...res/gen9.5

Although nobody was able to actually try HDR support on Gemini Lake yet I would still suppose that it should be working. As it was said earlier, as long as the hardware is able to decode the material, HDR should be working. And Gemini Lake most certainly is capable of 4K decoding with 10bpc, both for HEVC and VP9. Of course we need support from the OS and the driver to hand over the HDR metadata to the display (once per movie, as we are not talking about dynamic HDR here), but compared to decoding this is a minor software-only thing.

- direx 
 It's virtually the same as apollo lake. 

No HDR, sorry. This is from Intel.
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#24
(2018-01-24, 23:23)honcho Wrote:  It's virtually the same as apollo lake. 

No HDR, sorry. This is from Intel.
 Please don't make claims without proof. And don't mix up the CPU family with the GPU architecture. Let me get things straight:
  • Apollo Lake has Gen8 graphics (basically the same GPU architecture that Broadwell has). This means no HDR support.
  • Gemini Lake has Gen9.5 graphics with Gen10 display (Kabylake GPU architecture with native HDMI 2.0). This means everything for HDR support is nicely in place.
And since you are saying "this is from Intel", all I can say that this is from Intel:

https://communities.intel.com/thread/118457

Quote:
Quote:With Windows 10 RS3 (Version 1709) and Intel Graphics driver version 15.60.0.4849 installed, all 7th generation Intel NUC Kits and Mini PCs will support HDR natively.
 And you know what? Gemini Lake NUCs are 7th generation Intel NUCs, which is why they have a 7 in their product name (NUC7CJYH/NUC7PJYH).

So please give proof when you are saying HDR is not supported. And no, that one random guy that everybody was quoting from earlier in this thread is no proof at all.

I think that Gemini Lake NUCs will make a very good 4K HTPC with Kodi  Nod
Main: CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K, GFX: AMD RX480 8GB OC, Debian Linux
HTPC: CPU: Intel Core i5-3475S, GFX: Intel HD4000, Gentoo Linux (Kernel 4-stable), Kodi with [email protected] and HD audio, AVR: Denon X6300H with 7.1.4 setup, TV: Samsung [email protected]
Fun: Microsoft XBox, with XBMC :)
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#25
I agree, i think Gemini Lake should be good, especially with native HDMI 2.0.  However intel need to make sure they support linux.
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#26
https://www.anandtech.com/show/10635/int...o-lake-soc
Quote:On the GPU side of matters however, since Atom is inheriting the existing Gen9 GPU we’ve seen since Skylake, things are a lot clearer. Architecturally, Gen9 is not a radical departure from Gen8, but it’s none the less a more efficient and capable GPU architecture from Intel, supporting the more modern Direct3D Feature Level 12_1 feature set.

If you don't know that Apollo Lake has Gen9 GPU derived from Skylake, maybe you should stop posting incorrect & misleading information.

Anandtech is not wrong when it comes to Gemini Lake HDR, Intel is simply are not supporting HDR on Gemini Lake and that comes straight from Intel themselves.

7th gen means Kaby Lake NUCs, that's it.
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#27
(2018-01-25, 09:30)direx Wrote: And since you are saying "this is from Intel", all I can say that this is from Intel:

https://communities.intel.com/thread/118457

Well, actually, you gave a link. You yourself have studiedHuh?
[Image: e05f5ad780a1.png]

You see the list of UHD 605? I'm not. I am sure others too. This is a screenshot of Intel
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#28
(2018-01-25, 09:48)atoulmin Wrote: I agree, i think Gemini Lake should be good, especially with native HDMI 2.0.  However intel need to make sure they support linux.

My guess is that normal H264/HEVC/VP9 decoding will be smooth through VAAPI. The only Linux issue I see for now is HDR support, as the required API and software is simply not there yet - this is not a hardware limitation, though. My guess is that it will take up to a year until HDR will be available on Linux for any Intel GPU. But this does not apply to Windows 10 (1709 and later).

Regarding Linux HDR-support there already is a proof-of-concept from an Intel developer, who got things working with Gemini Lake:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/w...36403.html

But it's gonna take a while until this hits the actual userspace applications. I think we have a big debate about APIs and how to do it right ahead of us (which only applies to Kernel/Wayland/Xorg/vaapi/ffmpeg/etc. developers).
 
(2018-01-25, 15:27)DenisDA Wrote: Well, actually, you gave a link. You yourself have studiedHuh?

You see the list of UHD 605? I'm not. I am sure others too. This is a screenshot of Intel.

Yes, I know that paper. And the UHD 605 graphics was not publicly available when it was released, which is probably the reason why it does not show up in the list. And it says that it applies to 7th Gen Intel Core Processor and Newer Platforms. Gemini Lake is a newer platform than the 7th Gen Intel Core Processors and it has the same GPU architecture as the 7th Gen Intel Core Processors. So what is your point?
 
(2018-01-25, 13:54)HDGMA Wrote: If you don't know that Apollo Lake has Gen9 GPU derived from Skylake, maybe you should stop posting incorrect & misleading information.
Anandtech is not wrong when it comes to Gemini Lake HDR, Intel is simply are not supporting HDR on Gemini Lake and that comes straight from Intel themselves.

7th gen means Kaby Lake NUCs, that's it. 
Ok, let's not argue if Apollo Lake has Gen8 or Gen9 graphics. The Intel HD 505 graphics is not listed as Gen9 here, but it is probably simply missing in that list. But that does not change the situation about the HDR support. Why do all of you people keep quoting from that one random website and claim that the information is coming straight from Intel?

BTW: in the link I posted about Linux HDR support Ville Syrjälä of Intel OTC said:
 
Quote:Hardware wise you'll need a HDR capable display obviously, and you'll need an Intel Geminilake GPU. Older Intel platforms don't support the HDR infoframe, so the display wouldn't know what to do with the data you're feeding it.
    
Now if this does not come "straight from Intel" I don't know.

Since nobody knows if HDR support will actually work on Gemini Lake we can only guess right now. But there is some evidence, so let's summarize:

This is what speaks for HDR support on Gemini Lake:
 
  • The GL-based NUC7PJYH has native HDMI 2.0a and a Gen 9.5 GPU. It is able to decode H264/H265/VP9, all with 10 bit per channel. They point out the HDMI 2.0a part everywhere (see this), where the a in the HDMI 2.0 spec mostly stands for HDR support.
  • Gemini Lake has SGX. Why would Intel bother adding SGX to low-end platforms if not for UHD Bluray usage, where HDR is important. This is highly speculative, though.
  • An Intel community manager stated that "all 7th generation Intel NUC Kits and Mini PCs will support HDR natively". The Gemini Lake-based NUC7PJYH is a 7th generation Intel NUC.
  • An Intel technical paper said that HDR is supported on all 7th Gen Core Processors and newer platforms. Gemini Lake is a newer platform with the same GPU architecture as the 7th Gen Core Processors.
  • An Intel developer already posted that he has HDR working on Gemini Lake on Linux (proof of concept).

And now this is what speaks against HDR support on Gemini Lake:
 
  • One article from a random Indian guy that everybody keeps quoting and claims that he got his information "straight from Intel". This is what he writes:
    Quote:The low-cost platform supports SGX, HDMI 2.0, and HDCP 2.2. Gemini Lake platforms have a lower power budget and memory performance compared to the KBL-U systems covered in this piece. Intel confirmed that they do not plan to support HDR processing workflows in Gemini Lake due to those constraints.
    First of all it is unclear what HDR processing workflows really means and second of all the constraints mentioned (lower power and memory performance) have very little impact on HDR support. So to me this does not sound very plausible. It is also not stated where, when and how Intel supposedly confirmed that.

So let's be patient and see if Gemini Lake will be a solid HTPC platform or not. I have hopes that it will be, as the specs are looking promising.
Main: CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K, GFX: AMD RX480 8GB OC, Debian Linux
HTPC: CPU: Intel Core i5-3475S, GFX: Intel HD4000, Gentoo Linux (Kernel 4-stable), Kodi with [email protected] and HD audio, AVR: Denon X6300H with 7.1.4 setup, TV: Samsung [email protected]
Fun: Microsoft XBox, with XBMC :)
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#29
https://www.anandtech.com/show/10343/the...c-review/6

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12295/int...c-review/5

Anandtech's reviewer has been doing HTPC testing for all new platforms for a long time now and certainly has Intel contacts that would tell him what they will support and not support on their platforms.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12171/a-b...nd-more/10

Quote:They provided me with early access to a driver slated for release in January 2018. This driver enabled both the Intel NUC7i7BNHX and the ASRock Beebox-S 7200U to successfully play back the Planet Earth II Blu-ray with HDR, while also performing as per specifications in our other tests detailed in the previous sections.

Do you think Intel will provide some "random Indian guy" with NUC review samples & early access to their latest driver?
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#30
Support for HDMI 2.0 a does not mean that HDR is supported. It only means the ability to output video format [email protected] Apollo Lake plays well video format [email protected] 10 bit, but without HDR. Alas, in Gemini also does HDR as InTru 3D is a lowend product.
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