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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
I know there was a problem a while back where certain hdr Blu-ray's did not have any max CCL data. (terminator 2 was one example)

These showed a very dark picture but this was fixed by adding a fallback to 1000 nits for movies without that information embedded.

FLL is to do with individual frame brightness so I would of thought this does not affect HDR10.

Surely only HDR10+ and Dolby Vision would be affected by FLL.

I am no expert though and I am only speculating here.
Reply
(2019-06-07, 14:21)treboR2Robert Wrote: I know there was a problem a while back where certain hdr Blu-ray's did not have any max CCL data. (terminator 2 was one example)

These showed a very dark picture but this was fixed by adding a fallback to 1000 nits for movies without that information embedded.

FLL is to do with individual frame brightness so I would of thought this does not affect HDR10.

Surely only HDR10+ and Dolby Vision would be affected by FLL.

I am no expert though and I am only speculating here.

No - AIUI both are required for decent tone mapping to take place in non-ideal displays. They are both single metadata values for the entire movie and apply to HDR10 content.

Max CLL is the Max Content Light Level - i.e. the brightest pixel in the entire movie.
Max FALL is the Max Fame Average Light Level - i.e. the highest average value of all the pixels across a single frame in the entire movie.

Both of these values are important in allowing a display to decide how to tone map stuff outside its capabilities (as they let the display know the 'worst' case scenario for that movie)

Displays can have very high Max CLL capabilities but much, much lower Max FALL capabilities before they start having to shut down (OLEDs in particular). That's a major reason for this metadata being present in HDR10 sources. HDR range content (i.e. >100nits) is supposed to be restricted to specular highlights etc. - but some content pushes 'normal' content into the >100nit HDR range or has a LOT of bright highlights (think of a bright stellar explosion reflected in shiny windows in a SciFi movie)- and this is where Max FALL becomes important.

If you don't have a display that can display the full range of HDR10 ST.2084 PQ content for the mastering level (another bit of static metadata in a movie) then your display will need to know how to cope with stuff outside its range, knowing the Max CLL and Max FALL informs that decision.
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(2019-06-08, 00:53)noggin Wrote:
(2019-06-07, 14:21)treboR2Robert Wrote: I know there was a problem a while back where certain hdr Blu-ray's did not have any max CCL data. (terminator 2 was one example)

These showed a very dark picture but this was fixed by adding a fallback to 1000 nits for movies without that information embedded.

FLL is to do with individual frame brightness so I would of thought this does not affect HDR10.

Surely only HDR10+ and Dolby Vision would be affected by FLL.

I am no expert though and I am only speculating here.

No - AIUI both are required for decent tone mapping to take place in non-ideal displays. They are both single metadata values for the entire movie and apply to HDR10 content.

Max CLL is the Max Content Light Level - i.e. the brightest pixel in the entire movie.
Max FALL is the Max Fame Average Light Level - i.e. the highest average value of all the pixels across a single frame in the entire movie.

Both of these values are important in allowing a display to decide how to tone map stuff outside its capabilities (as they let the display know the 'worst' case scenario for that movie)

Displays can have very high Max CLL capabilities but much, much lower Max FALL capabilities before they start having to shut down (OLEDs in particular). That's a major reason for this metadata being present in HDR10 sources. HDR range content (i.e. >100nits) is supposed to be restricted to specular highlights etc. - but some content pushes 'normal' content into the >100nit HDR range or has a LOT of bright highlights (think of a bright stellar explosion reflected in shiny windows in a SciFi movie)- and this is where Max FALL becomes important.

If you don't have a display that can display the full range of HDR10 ST.2084 PQ content for the mastering level (another bit of static metadata in a movie) then your display will need to know how to cope with stuff outside its range, knowing the Max CLL and Max FALL informs that decision.

Thanks for the explanation, I sort of get it I think.

So the odroid n2 (s922) running CoreELEC can do this but the s912 devices running CoreELEC can't?

My TV is an LG B7 OLED.

Will the difference be noticeable ? The HDR picture from the s912 does look pretty good on my TV.

Thanks
Rob
Reply
(2019-06-08, 01:38)treboR2Robert Wrote: So the odroid n2 (s922) running CoreELEC can do this but the s912 devices running CoreELEC can't?

We will not know until someone hooks up a HDMI analyser and Metadata reader like a HD Fury Vertex and details what exactly the newer v4.9 AMLogic modded Linux Kernel is outputting in regards to Max CLL/FALL. If it is still missing Max CLL/FALL then it will be no better vs the previous AML S905X/D or S912.

Quote:My TV is an LG B7 OLED.

Will the difference be noticeable ? The HDR picture from the s912 does look pretty good on my TV.

Thanks
Rob

It seems those that have 4K HDR projectors which are not able to reach anywhere near the intended light output levels of the source 4K HDR video content, benefit the most from Max CLL/FALL output because some projector hardware can then do it's own, much needed auto Tone mapping. See THIS article (click)

The other point to note is not all 4K HDR Bluray's, even have any Max CLL/FALL or even accurate Metadata to begin with.
It's all still of a bit of a hit and miss mess.

Trust your eyes, if 4K HDR picture output is acceptable for the price paid, without needing to do a whole lot of media player settings fiddling all the time, go with that IMHO.

You can read more relevant info about Max CLL/FALL implications over on the OSCM forums (click)

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Hi I'm new here, hope this is the right thread for my question. 

I have a Mecool M8s Pro L with S912 running Android TV OS Nougat.

I was wondering if tone mapping is now somehow possible while using the Android TV OS? I always thought the tone mapping on AMLogic boxes was only possible when using libreelec or coreelec. The tone mapping didn't work on android.

Has that changed now with a Kodi update? or is there any other way tone mapping on AMLogic boxes is now accessible on android?

I know the Mi Box has this setting since the Oreo update, but is not 100%? although as far as I know this is the only ATV box that does tone HDR>SDR in the Android TV OS.

Thanks
Reply
MadVR guys correct me if I'm wrong...

Unless you have a Displaycal or similar, user generated 3DLUT, mapped for each users, differing SDR displays. And then have software adjustments of the like MadVR has, then you will not get anywhere near decent color and brightness output from off the shelf cheap Android hardware - when trying trying to playback HDR content on to a SDR display.

A generic AMLogic "one size fits all" approach is simply not going to work properly no matter which Android OS version is used.

LE or CE, Kodi's Tone mapping is only accessible if Software decoding. Trying to Software decode 4K 10bit HEVC will bring virtually all devices to a grinding halt. So that won't work either.

Reply
Sorry I'm new to tone mapping and HDR.

Assuming that proper software decoding is simply not possible on most devices, what does the Mi Box do when the HDR>SDR option is enabled? Is it hardware decoding? (which most of the Amlogic chips support)

From what I've known previously tone mapping support simply wasn't available on Nougat for ATV, hence the hardware level tone mapping is not present on other ATV boxes.

On a side note, I've heard the Fire TV Stick 4K does support tone mapping. Would tone mapping work out of the box with Kodi on the Fire TV Stick 4K?

I'm just looking for a solution where I can use Kodi to watch 4K content on an SDR TV without it being washed out and still be able to use android apps for the other content.
Reply
(2019-06-08, 05:46)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-06-08, 01:38)treboR2Robert Wrote: So the odroid n2 (s922) running CoreELEC can do this but the s912 devices running CoreELEC can't?

We will not know until someone hooks up a HDMI analyser and Metadata reader like a HD Fury Vertex and details what exactly the newer v4.9 AMLogic modded Linux Kernel is outputting in regards to Max CLL/FALL. If it is still missing Max CLL/FALL then it will be no better vs the previous AML S905X/D or S912.
Quote:My TV is an LG B7 OLED.

Will the difference be noticeable ? The HDR picture from the s912 does look pretty good on my TV.

Thanks
Rob

It seems those that have 4K HDR projectors which are not able to reach anywhere near the intended light output levels of the source 4K HDR video content, benefit the most from Max CLL/FALL output because some projector hardware can then do it's own, much needed auto Tone mapping. See THIS article (click)

The other point to note is not all 4K HDR Bluray's, even have any Max CLL/FALL or even accurate Metadata to begin with.
It's all still of a bit of a hit and miss mess.

Trust your eyes, if 4K HDR picture output is acceptable for the price paid, without needing to do a whole lot of media player settings fiddling all the time, go with that IMHO.

You can read more relevant info about Max CLL/FALL implications over on the OSCM forums (click) 

Thank you @wrxtasy 
Hopefully someone can test this soon then, there seems to be a LOT of people on the CoreELEC forums who have bought an N2, maybe one of them has HD Fury Vertex.

I have read just over 1000 messages (out of about 2000) on the N2 thread at CoreELEC and havn't seen any mention of one yet.

Am I right in thinking then that the s912 can send CLL data but not FALL ?

Thanks again
Rob
Reply
well i'm not a specialist, but i have a 905x and a Rock64.
The rock64 can output 4K HDR exactly like my tv does without a client, all the brightness, its just gorgeous (sometimes the sky shots blinds you!) meanwhile the 905x cant achieve that kind of brightness, (its still ok tho) but its not a perfect experience
i'm sorry for not being "technical"
the devs on the coreelec forum told me that the 922x outputs exactly (in terms of image processing) like the 905x so.. 80bucks for nothing? only for 1080p soft decoding damn that was a good marketing strategy by them! Devil
tested on a samsung ks7000 connected to a marantz 6011.
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Hello,

I need some help choosing my media player.
I'm sorry if I'm asking something that you've probably been asked so many times, but although I'm learning much about this I still am far from being able to decide without asking for help.

My use case is very specific: I need to mainly play 4K HDR files contained in mkv containers while bitstream a Dolby Atmos/DTS:X audio track to my AVR.
These would be BluRay Rips, so they would be quite big in size and of a high bitrate.
This is the most important thing to me, and the one that I need to work as best as it can.
Best picture quality while playing this is more important to me than any other feature.

My other requirement would be to stay much far away from Windows. Linux would be the best but Android is fine too.

For these reasons, I think the right choice for me would be one between either the Nvidia Shield TV or the Odroid N2.
I've excluded the Vero 4k+ because apparently it isn't powerful enough to play Hi10p (H264) videos, while the other can (from what I've read).

Other nice things to play would be 1080p mkvs, while always while bitstreaming Atmos/DTS:X tracks, and Hi10p mkvs but those are not the priority.

What do you suggest I buy?
Reply
(2019-06-19, 23:42)DarkSphere00 Wrote: Hello,

I need some help choosing my media player.
I'm sorry if I'm asking something that you've probably been asked so many times, but although I'm learning much about this I still am far from being able to decide without asking for help.

My use case is very specific: I need to mainly play 4K HDR files contained in mkv containers while bitstream a Dolby Atmos/DTS:X audio track to my AVR.
These would be BluRay Rips, so they would be quite big in size and of a high bitrate.
This is the most important thing to me, and the one that I need to work as best as it can.
Best picture quality while playing this is more important to me than any other feature.

My other requirement would be to stay much far away from Windows. Linux would be the best but Android is fine too.

For these reasons, I think the right choice for me would be one between either the Nvidia Shield TV or the Odroid N2.
I've excluded the Vero 4k+ because apparently it isn't powerful enough to play Hi10p (H264) videos, while the other can (from what I've read).

Other nice things to play would be 1080p mkvs, while always while bitstreaming Atmos/DTS:X tracks, and Hi10p mkvs but those are not the priority.

What do you suggest I buy?
We have Hi10p working (up to a number of ReFrames now) with HW decoding now.
S
Reply
(2019-06-20, 00:35)Sam.Nazarko Wrote:
(2019-06-19, 23:42)DarkSphere00 Wrote: Hello,

I need some help choosing my media player.
I'm sorry if I'm asking something that you've probably been asked so many times, but although I'm learning much about this I still am far from being able to decide without asking for help.

My use case is very specific: I need to mainly play 4K HDR files contained in mkv containers while bitstream a Dolby Atmos/DTS:X audio track to my AVR.
These would be BluRay Rips, so they would be quite big in size and of a high bitrate.
This is the most important thing to me, and the one that I need to work as best as it can.
Best picture quality while playing this is more important to me than any other feature.

My other requirement would be to stay much far away from Windows. Linux would be the best but Android is fine too.

For these reasons, I think the right choice for me would be one between either the Nvidia Shield TV or the Odroid N2.
I've excluded the Vero 4k+ because apparently it isn't powerful enough to play Hi10p (H264) videos, while the other can (from what I've read).

Other nice things to play would be 1080p mkvs, while always while bitstreaming Atmos/DTS:X tracks, and Hi10p mkvs but those are not the priority.

What do you suggest I buy?
We have Hi10p working (up to a number of ReFrames now) with HW decoding now.
S

Am I right in assuming the Vero 4k cannot output CLL / FALL metadata though ?
Reply
(2019-06-19, 23:42)DarkSphere00 Wrote: Hello,

I need some help choosing my media player.
I'm sorry if I'm asking something that you've probably been asked so many times, but although I'm learning much about this I still am far from being able to decide without asking for help.

My use case is very specific: I need to mainly play 4K HDR files contained in mkv containers while bitstream a Dolby Atmos/DTS:X audio track to my AVR.
These would be BluRay Rips, so they would be quite big in size and of a high bitrate.
This is the most important thing to me, and the one that I need to work as best as it can.
Best picture quality while playing this is more important to me than any other feature.

My other requirement would be to stay much far away from Windows. Linux would be the best but Android is fine too.

For these reasons, I think the right choice for me would be one between either the Nvidia Shield TV or the Odroid N2.
I've excluded the Vero 4k+ because apparently it isn't powerful enough to play Hi10p (H264) videos, while the other can (from what I've read).

If any of the CoreELEC ODROID N2 owners verified that it could passthrough CLL/FALL Metadata I would say go with that, it will easily SW decode Hi10p.

If you want certainty get the Nvidia Shield for such Metadata passthrough and Hi10p SW decoding.

You will have to use Android Kodi's auto Resolution switching to work around the Shield's poor HW picture upscaling of non 4K content.

(2019-06-20, 00:35)Sam.Nazarko Wrote: We have Hi10p working (up to a number of ReFrames now) with HW decoding now (on the Vero 4K(+))
S

Must be experimental, because the very latest Vero 4K update (May) definitely does not HW decode Hi10p Anime and SW decoding of such content does not work properly.

Reply
(2019-06-20, 00:46)treboR2Robert Wrote:
(2019-06-20, 00:35)Sam.Nazarko Wrote:
(2019-06-19, 23:42)DarkSphere00 Wrote: Hello,

I need some help choosing my media player.
I'm sorry if I'm asking something that you've probably been asked so many times, but although I'm learning much about this I still am far from being able to decide without asking for help.

My use case is very specific: I need to mainly play 4K HDR files contained in mkv containers while bitstream a Dolby Atmos/DTS:X audio track to my AVR.
These would be BluRay Rips, so they would be quite big in size and of a high bitrate.
This is the most important thing to me, and the one that I need to work as best as it can.
Best picture quality while playing this is more important to me than any other feature.

My other requirement would be to stay much far away from Windows. Linux would be the best but Android is fine too.

For these reasons, I think the right choice for me would be one between either the Nvidia Shield TV or the Odroid N2.
I've excluded the Vero 4k+ because apparently it isn't powerful enough to play Hi10p (H264) videos, while the other can (from what I've read).

Other nice things to play would be 1080p mkvs, while always while bitstreaming Atmos/DTS:X tracks, and Hi10p mkvs but those are not the priority.

What do you suggest I buy?
We have Hi10p working (up to a number of ReFrames now) with HW decoding now.
S  

Am I right in assuming the Vero 4k cannot output CLL / FALL metadata though ?  

Correct. Currently 3.14 does not do this, but we are moving away from this shortly. We have MaxCLL/MaxFALL working on the hardware on a new stack. We are making a number of changes over the Summer and plan is to roll it out with Hi10, 3D-FP, tone mapping and HDR10+.

Here is full metadata passthrough on 4K +: https://collab.osmc.tv/s/9vPnKXEqXp35E4f

Sam
Reply
(2019-06-20, 03:04)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-06-19, 23:42)DarkSphere00 Wrote:  

Must be experimental, because the very latest Vero 4K update (May) definitely does not HW decode Hi10p Anime and SW decoding of such content does not work properly.  
This needs to be manually installed for now. When it is more stable it will be part of the standard release.
Cheers,

Sam
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