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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
I know there was a problem a while back where certain hdr Blu-ray's did not have any max CCL data. (terminator 2 was one example)

These showed a very dark picture but this was fixed by adding a fallback to 1000 nits for movies without that information embedded.

FLL is to do with individual frame brightness so I would of thought this does not affect HDR10.

Surely only HDR10+ and Dolby Vision would be affected by FLL.

I am no expert though and I am only speculating here.
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(2019-06-07, 14:21)treboR2Robert Wrote: I know there was a problem a while back where certain hdr Blu-ray's did not have any max CCL data. (terminator 2 was one example)

These showed a very dark picture but this was fixed by adding a fallback to 1000 nits for movies without that information embedded.

FLL is to do with individual frame brightness so I would of thought this does not affect HDR10.

Surely only HDR10+ and Dolby Vision would be affected by FLL.

I am no expert though and I am only speculating here.

No - AIUI both are required for decent tone mapping to take place in non-ideal displays. They are both single metadata values for the entire movie and apply to HDR10 content.

Max CLL is the Max Content Light Level - i.e. the brightest pixel in the entire movie.
Max FALL is the Max Fame Average Light Level - i.e. the highest average value of all the pixels across a single frame in the entire movie.

Both of these values are important in allowing a display to decide how to tone map stuff outside its capabilities (as they let the display know the 'worst' case scenario for that movie)

Displays can have very high Max CLL capabilities but much, much lower Max FALL capabilities before they start having to shut down (OLEDs in particular). That's a major reason for this metadata being present in HDR10 sources. HDR range content (i.e. >100nits) is supposed to be restricted to specular highlights etc. - but some content pushes 'normal' content into the >100nit HDR range or has a LOT of bright highlights (think of a bright stellar explosion reflected in shiny windows in a SciFi movie)- and this is where Max FALL becomes important.

If you don't have a display that can display the full range of HDR10 ST.2084 PQ content for the mastering level (another bit of static metadata in a movie) then your display will need to know how to cope with stuff outside its range, knowing the Max CLL and Max FALL informs that decision.
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(2019-06-08, 00:53)noggin Wrote:
(2019-06-07, 14:21)treboR2Robert Wrote: I know there was a problem a while back where certain hdr Blu-ray's did not have any max CCL data. (terminator 2 was one example)

These showed a very dark picture but this was fixed by adding a fallback to 1000 nits for movies without that information embedded.

FLL is to do with individual frame brightness so I would of thought this does not affect HDR10.

Surely only HDR10+ and Dolby Vision would be affected by FLL.

I am no expert though and I am only speculating here.

No - AIUI both are required for decent tone mapping to take place in non-ideal displays. They are both single metadata values for the entire movie and apply to HDR10 content.

Max CLL is the Max Content Light Level - i.e. the brightest pixel in the entire movie.
Max FALL is the Max Fame Average Light Level - i.e. the highest average value of all the pixels across a single frame in the entire movie.

Both of these values are important in allowing a display to decide how to tone map stuff outside its capabilities (as they let the display know the 'worst' case scenario for that movie)

Displays can have very high Max CLL capabilities but much, much lower Max FALL capabilities before they start having to shut down (OLEDs in particular). That's a major reason for this metadata being present in HDR10 sources. HDR range content (i.e. >100nits) is supposed to be restricted to specular highlights etc. - but some content pushes 'normal' content into the >100nit HDR range or has a LOT of bright highlights (think of a bright stellar explosion reflected in shiny windows in a SciFi movie)- and this is where Max FALL becomes important.

If you don't have a display that can display the full range of HDR10 ST.2084 PQ content for the mastering level (another bit of static metadata in a movie) then your display will need to know how to cope with stuff outside its range, knowing the Max CLL and Max FALL informs that decision.

Thanks for the explanation, I sort of get it I think.

So the odroid n2 (s922) running CoreELEC can do this but the s912 devices running CoreELEC can't?

My TV is an LG B7 OLED.

Will the difference be noticeable ? The HDR picture from the s912 does look pretty good on my TV.

Thanks
Rob
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(2019-06-08, 01:38)treboR2Robert Wrote: So the odroid n2 (s922) running CoreELEC can do this but the s912 devices running CoreELEC can't?

We will not know until someone hooks up a HDMI analyser and Metadata reader like a HD Fury Vertex and details what exactly the newer v4.9 AMLogic modded Linux Kernel is outputting in regards to Max CLL/FALL. If it is still missing Max CLL/FALL then it will be no better vs the previous AML S905X/D or S912.

Quote:My TV is an LG B7 OLED.

Will the difference be noticeable ? The HDR picture from the s912 does look pretty good on my TV.

Thanks
Rob

It seems those that have 4K HDR projectors which are not able to reach anywhere near the intended light output levels of the source 4K HDR video content, benefit the most from Max CLL/FALL output because some projector hardware can then do it's own, much needed auto Tone mapping. See THIS article (click)

The other point to note is not all 4K HDR Bluray's, even have any Max CLL/FALL or even accurate Metadata to begin with.
It's all still of a bit of a hit and miss mess.

Trust your eyes, if 4K HDR picture output is acceptable for the price paid, without needing to do a whole lot of media player settings fiddling all the time, go with that IMHO.

You can read more relevant info about Max CLL/FALL implications over on the OSCM forums (click)

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Hi I'm new here, hope this is the right thread for my question. 

I have a Mecool M8s Pro L with S912 running Android TV OS Nougat.

I was wondering if tone mapping is now somehow possible while using the Android TV OS? I always thought the tone mapping on AMLogic boxes was only possible when using libreelec or coreelec. The tone mapping didn't work on android.

Has that changed now with a Kodi update? or is there any other way tone mapping on AMLogic boxes is now accessible on android?

I know the Mi Box has this setting since the Oreo update, but is not 100%? although as far as I know this is the only ATV box that does tone HDR>SDR in the Android TV OS.

Thanks
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MadVR guys correct me if I'm wrong...

Unless you have a Displaycal or similar, user generated 3DLUT, mapped for each users, differing SDR displays. And then have software adjustments of the like MadVR has, then you will not get anywhere near decent color and brightness output from off the shelf cheap Android hardware - when trying trying to playback HDR content on to a SDR display.

A generic AMLogic "one size fits all" approach is simply not going to work properly no matter which Android OS version is used.

LE or CE, Kodi's Tone mapping is only accessible if Software decoding. Trying to Software decode 4K 10bit HEVC will bring virtually all devices to a grinding halt. So that won't work either.

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Sorry I'm new to tone mapping and HDR.

Assuming that proper software decoding is simply not possible on most devices, what does the Mi Box do when the HDR>SDR option is enabled? Is it hardware decoding? (which most of the Amlogic chips support)

From what I've known previously tone mapping support simply wasn't available on Nougat for ATV, hence the hardware level tone mapping is not present on other ATV boxes.

On a side note, I've heard the Fire TV Stick 4K does support tone mapping. Would tone mapping work out of the box with Kodi on the Fire TV Stick 4K?

I'm just looking for a solution where I can use Kodi to watch 4K content on an SDR TV without it being washed out and still be able to use android apps for the other content.
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(2019-06-08, 05:46)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-06-08, 01:38)treboR2Robert Wrote: So the odroid n2 (s922) running CoreELEC can do this but the s912 devices running CoreELEC can't?

We will not know until someone hooks up a HDMI analyser and Metadata reader like a HD Fury Vertex and details what exactly the newer v4.9 AMLogic modded Linux Kernel is outputting in regards to Max CLL/FALL. If it is still missing Max CLL/FALL then it will be no better vs the previous AML S905X/D or S912.
Quote:My TV is an LG B7 OLED.

Will the difference be noticeable ? The HDR picture from the s912 does look pretty good on my TV.

Thanks
Rob

It seems those that have 4K HDR projectors which are not able to reach anywhere near the intended light output levels of the source 4K HDR video content, benefit the most from Max CLL/FALL output because some projector hardware can then do it's own, much needed auto Tone mapping. See THIS article (click)

The other point to note is not all 4K HDR Bluray's, even have any Max CLL/FALL or even accurate Metadata to begin with.
It's all still of a bit of a hit and miss mess.

Trust your eyes, if 4K HDR picture output is acceptable for the price paid, without needing to do a whole lot of media player settings fiddling all the time, go with that IMHO.

You can read more relevant info about Max CLL/FALL implications over on the OSCM forums (click) 

Thank you @wrxtasy 
Hopefully someone can test this soon then, there seems to be a LOT of people on the CoreELEC forums who have bought an N2, maybe one of them has HD Fury Vertex.

I have read just over 1000 messages (out of about 2000) on the N2 thread at CoreELEC and havn't seen any mention of one yet.

Am I right in thinking then that the s912 can send CLL data but not FALL ?

Thanks again
Rob
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