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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
(2019-07-22, 05:08)Mount81 Wrote:
(2019-07-18, 13:29)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-07-18, 07:32)Mount81 Wrote: Hello!

Does the Fire TV Stick 4K (with KODI) and the Vero have proper HDR->SDR conversion feature? 

I'm almost pretty sure that Amlogic + LE or CE can't do any HDR->SDR conversion, right? So this won't neither change for the new S922X chipest devices?

Not sure about the FireTV Stick 4K..

Any of the HDR capable AML S905X, S905D, S922, A311D chipset devices running any sort of OS can do HDR -> SDR mapping at the Linux Kernel level.

But color and brightness outputs will not be 100% correct, you really need specialist software, like MadVR and tailored display mapping as described in this 2860458 (post)  
Back to this: I didn't seen actually the other options (like Zidoo), but the Q10 Pro can do a really good and almost seamless HDR->SDR conversion, it works fine and with decent PQ on my FHD TV. I turning back to my previous question, that will (can) it be any better with those new Amlogic chipsets with Core Elec anytime? Or is this such a hardware or Linux kerner limitation, that couldn't be acceptably resolved?

It might look seamless, but I suspect you have just struck it lucky with a device, that can map and that closely matches your distinct display's picture output capabilities.
Anything else, like cheap AMLogic will very likely have strange colors and brightness outputs due to using generic tone mapping.

You really need to use tailored tone maps that matches each distinct SDR display capabilities. Anything else is just guesswork.

Reply
(2019-07-22, 04:56)Sjors125 Wrote: Thanks for clearing that up about DV. So Apple TV 4k with DV is great, but it not supporting addons via MrMC is not so great (I really want my favorite skin on all my devices)

At this stage the ATV 4K is good for DV when using paid for video streaming Apps. ie. Netflix & iTunes, maybe VUDU.
DV anything else would be considered experimental.

Quote:I will look into Zidoo and compare it with my Minix.

Be aware Zidoo does not support Kodi natively for audio or video hardware decoding. It uses external media player software that is called from within Kodi.
That can lead to issues because you will not be getting the full monty Kodi experience.

A bunch of people do not like that convoluted setup.
Zidoo Kodi 18.2 (click)

With the U9 - use CoreELEC Kodi Leia, running from a Class 10 U1 microSDHC card if you want a great Kodi Leia experience.
(remember to tweak the GPU MHz in Settings > System > AMLogic)

https://coreelec.org/

Reply
Some new questions have emerged again:

What about Minix U9-H? I know it's an Amlogic S912 Box, which have their bracket in the first post listing, but it may worth a separate mention regarding it's Android capabilities.

And so the questions spawning: does it have also that lame HDR->SDR conversion with it's stock Android Player as it has with CE/LE?
Reply
(2019-07-22, 06:57)wrxtasy Wrote: Be aware Zidoo does not support Kodi natively for audio or video hardware decoding. It uses external media player software that is called from within Kodi.
That can lead to issues because you will not be getting the full monty Kodi experience.

A bunch of people do not like that convoluted setup.
Zidoo Kodi 18.2 (click)

@wrxtasy is on point as usual with his assessment of Zidoo, but as I've used X9S and now the new-gen Z9S, for years combined, I don't find the set-up convoluted. The main thing you miss is watched flags as playback is handled by the native/external video player app, which also has its own navigation & other controls, but the interplay is pretty seamless.

If you do consider Zidoo, a plus with the new-gen Z-series is that they support Max CLL/FALL passthrough. And performance is faster, and firmware support is better with Zidoo more focused on it than previous-gen. To be fair, the previous-gen X-series are about as good in their current state as they're going to get.
[H]i-[d]eft [M]edia [K]een [V]ideosaurus
My Family Room Theater
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(2019-07-23, 14:19)Mount81 Wrote: Some new questions have emerged again:

What about Minix U9-H? I know it's an Amlogic S912 Box, which have their bracket in the first post listing, but it may worth a separate mention regarding it's Android capabilities.

And so the questions spawning: does it have also that lame HDR->SDR conversion with it's stock Android Player as it has with CE/LE?

Yes it is the same, visually to my eyes. ie. OK for users that are not very demanding at all but still not correct with brightness or color mapping, which varies a lot depending on the HDR content you are trying to play on a SDR TV.

Reply
(2019-07-22, 06:43)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-07-22, 05:08)Mount81 Wrote:
(2019-07-18, 13:29)wrxtasy Wrote: Not sure about the FireTV Stick 4K..

Any of the HDR capable AML S905X, S905D, S922, A311D chipset devices running any sort of OS can do HDR -> SDR mapping at the Linux Kernel level.

But color and brightness outputs will not be 100% correct, you really need specialist software, like MadVR and tailored display mapping as described in this 2860458 (post)  
Back to this: I didn't seen actually the other options (like Zidoo), but the Q10 Pro can do a really good and almost seamless HDR->SDR conversion, it works fine and with decent PQ on my FHD TV. I turning back to my previous question, that will (can) it be any better with those new Amlogic chipsets with Core Elec anytime? Or is this such a hardware or Linux kerner limitation, that couldn't be acceptably resolved?   

It might look seamless, but I suspect you have just struck it lucky with a device, that can map and that closely matches your distinct display's picture output capabilities.
Anything else, like cheap AMLogic will very likely have strange colors and brightness outputs due to using generic tone mapping.

You really need to use tailored tone maps that matches each distinct SDR display capabilities. Anything else is just guesswork.   

What do you base that assessment on @wrxtasy ?

We have broadcast standards - BT.1886 or Rec.709 with 2.2-2.4 power law gamma for SDR (both have the same gamut, but BT.1886 specs a more precise EOTF, whereas Rec.709 doesn't, so 2.2-2.4 power law gamma is assumes) - and TVs display these reasonably consistently if correctly calibrated.

You will need to convert a Rec 2020 HDR to one of these (they are similar but not the same). As you are trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot, you have to trade off various aspects of a wider gamut, wider dynamic range source when you tone map it back to a narrower gamut, narrower dynamic range.

Broadcasters are already beginning to produce live multicamera content in UHD HDR Rec 2020 and tone map this to Rec 709 for broadcast in HD - and they don't take into account viewers' individual display characteristics?  They convert using an approach that delivers a decent SDR result, but there isn't only one way of approaching this challenge, and which approach is used will dictate what the end result looks like.

There are currently at least two distinct approaches to HDR->SDR conversion being used :- 

'Scene Light' where you try and create an SDR signal from an HDR signal, that comes as close as possible to matching what the scene would have looked like if shot on an SDR Rec 709 camera. You effectively map the Rec 2020 HDR signal back to light levels, and then simulate a Rec 709 SDR camera shooting that scene. This will make the scene look like it was shot on an SDR Rec 709 camera.

'Display Light' where you try and create something that looks as close as possible to watching the HDR picture on an HDR display, but on an SDR display.  

When tone mapping gamuts you also have decisions to make as to whether you go for a constant hue conversion or not.
 
So different tone mapping approaches will have different results, but that's because they are aiming to deliver different results.

However if your SDR display is correctly calibrated, I see no reason why you would use a significantly different set of tone mapping variations display-to-display, you just need to be aware that different tone mapping approaches will deliver very different results.

Of course if your display is Rec 709 power law and not BT.1886 - then that will expose a difference.
Reply
You will have to amend the front list for the Odroid N2.  Currently it can’t output HDR when playing a HDR10+ file.  It’s not a hardware limitation but an issue with the 4.9 Kernal.  Just buyers beware.  If you play a HDR10+ file it only outputs SDR.
Reply
And worth adding Zidoo Z-series (Z9S & Z10):
  • Kodi doesn't run natively, but Zidoo's fork ZDMC Leia & Krypton-based are both available
  • ZDMC (Kodi fork) is mostly used a front-end to push media playback to external (native) media player app
  • 4K HDR with Max CLL/FALL info passthrough
  • HDR to SDR mapping
  • Fully supports HD audio (including ATMOS & DTS:X) and LPCM
  • Best player for full 3D + 4K support in one
  • Deinterlacing for OTA TV has never been a strong performer on this platform
  • Only SD quality Netflix, Amazon, etc.
Reply
(2019-07-22, 06:57)wrxtasy Wrote:
(2019-07-22, 04:56)Sjors125 Wrote: Thanks for clearing that up about DV. So Apple TV 4k with DV is great, but it not supporting addons via MrMC is not so great (I really want my favorite skin on all my devices)

At this stage the ATV 4K is good for DV when using paid for video streaming Apps. ie. Netflix & iTunes, maybe VUDU.
DV anything else would be considered experimental.
Quote:I will look into Zidoo and compare it with my Minix.

Be aware Zidoo does not support Kodi natively for audio or video hardware decoding. It uses external media player software that is called from within Kodi.
That can lead to issues because you will not be getting the full monty Kodi experience.

A bunch of people do not like that convoluted setup.
Zidoo Kodi 18.2 (click)

With the U9 - use CoreELEC Kodi Leia, running from a Class 10 U1 microSDHC card if you want a great Kodi Leia experience.
(remember to tweak the GPU MHz in Settings > System > AMLogic)

https://coreelec.org/ 

Then I'll probably revert to my U9.
Only thing is, on CoreElec I cannot get my shared db (mariadb) to work, where on LibreElec, Android and Windows it was almost just plug and play.
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Large FAT warning to Nvidia Shield owners on Post #1 of this thread to NOT update to Pie 9.0. Color outputs will be incorrect.

Reply
I am using Zidoo Z9S with native Kodi 18. It works well, 4K HDR10 and DTX/ATMOS passthrough.
Reply
Video 
Does anyone have the current status of Xbox One? I have tried kodi from MS store (Leia 18) and it appears to have fairly limited support still.

Update on:
- HDR10+/Dolby Vision UHD & audio playback from:
A. Stream
B. Local HDD
C. Network HDD
D. Blu-Ray drive

In general, I have had playback issues from my NAS HDD (with any protocol)

Thanks!
Reply
No HDR support on Xbox.
Reply
(2019-07-26, 07:13)atoulmin Wrote: You will have to amend the front list for the Odroid N2.  Currently it can’t output HDR when playing a HDR10+ file.  It’s not a hardware limitation but an issue with the 4.9 Kernal.  Just buyers beware.  If you play a HDR10+ file it only outputs SDR.
This applies to SoCs in general on Kernel 4.9 and there is no reason to post a buyers beware for such a small obstacle/bug which is currently being sorted out in the coming weeks. HDR10+ support is on the way too BTW, at least for S905X2/3, S922X and A311D using CoreELEC.
Reply
(2019-08-05, 20:56)Hitcher Wrote: No HDR support on Xbox.

This is unfortunate! There must be a central location where development and support is being carried out for the Xbox build?

I realize it was a long and painstaking process porting kodi to a Windows App.

It would be great for such a powerful device to be better supported.
Reply
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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.3.679