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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
(2018-09-24, 22:52)treboR2Robert Wrote: 1) When I read about this 8bit to 10bit dithering on s905x it said that it was a hardware limitation. Reading through this thread last night you seem to be saying that this is not the case and it is a software limitation ?
2) Also you have said the CoreELEC builds for s905x and the s912 both suffer from this ?
3) Do any of the s905x boxes have a hardware limitation preventing them from passing through true 10 bit video ?
4) What about s905d and s905w?
5) If the s912 does not have this limitation why does the s912 CoreELEC build have a problem ?
6) The original vero 4k has a s905x right ? Does the vero 4k+ have a s905d ?
7) do the latest builds of libreelec based on Kodi Leia only support s905x and not s912 ? will they ever support s912? and how about s905d and s905w ?
8) I mentioned the stuff about terminiator 2 and the dim picture because I also thought it didn't look anywhere near as clear or sharp on coreelec as my tvs internal player. Could this be dithering ?
9) What is dithering exactly ? are 8bit to 10bit even related to dithering ?

1) True hardware limitation on SoC system design is limited. You can update some or all of the SoC. It is up to the vendor what part of the SoC can be updated.
2) I may have to check my notes to say definitely, but I do remember that the CoreELEC builds that I tried on S905X and S912 didn't have true 10-bit output.
3) See 1.
4) I don't know. I haven't tested any device with these SoCs.
5) As I explained in 1. This is likely due to the old kernel being used.
6) Correct.
7) I don't have the answer to this.
8) No this is not due to dithering. It is likely due to incorrect mastering display luminance in the HDR10 metadata.
9) Dithering is basically an error diffusion technique. It is generally employed when changing the bit depth of audio/video (e.g. going from 10-bit to 8-bit video color depth or 24-bit to 16-bit audio bit depth).
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(2018-09-24, 22:52)treboR2Robert Wrote:
(2018-08-19, 20:04)wesk05 Wrote: Dithering on CE-S905X is what is making those squares look separated. From a purely visual prespective that is actually fine, but the purpose of my testing was to check true 10-bit output and CE fails in that test. It seems to be a kernel problem because the output is good on both Vero 4K and even LE on the same box (Mecool M8S Pro+).

Since dithering changes with frame and this being a static test pattern, dithering produces the flicker that I mentioned earlier. You are unlikely to notice this flicker in normal viewing (unless there is a static scene).
Hi @wesk05 I read about this 8 bit to 10 bit "dithering" on s905x a long time ago and because of that I bought a s912 box instead of a Vero 4k.

I tried CoreELEC, LibreELEC and a few others but could never get a good HDR image.

I left it unplugged for months and have only recently started reading about it again, it seems that the problem I was having is every time i tested HDR i used Terminator 2 and the picture was REALLY dim.

I found out yesterday that this and a few other titles are missing luminance data and OSMC has recently fixed this by changing fallback luminace from 5000 to 1000 nits.

I spoke to CoreELEC about this and they are adding the fix to their build also.

So back to my original thought.

When I read about this 8bit to 10bit dithering on s905x it said that it was a hardware limitation.

Reading through this thread last night you seem to be saying that this is not the case and it is a software limitation ?

Also you have said the CoreELEC builds for s905x and the s912 both suffer from this ?

Basically I am REALLY REALLY confused and would like some clarification from someone who knows.
  1. Do any of the s905x boxes have a hardware limitation preventing them from passing through true 10 bit video ?
  2. What about s905d and s905w?
  3. If the s912 does not have this limitation why does the s912 CoreELEC build have a problem ?
  4. The original vero 4k has a s905x right ? Does the vero 4k+ have a s905d ?
  5. do the latest builds of libreelec based on Kodi Leia only support s905x and not s912 ? will they ever support s912? and how about s905d and s905w ?
I mentioned the stuff about terminiator 2 and the dim picture because I also thought it didn't look anywhere near as clear or sharp on coreelec as my tvs internal player.

Could this be dithering ?

What is dithering exactly ?

are 8bit to 10bit even related to dithering ?

I am again tempted to buy a Vero 4k+ but this whole 8bit to 10bit conversion thing has me so confused and is putting me off.

Plus I have a s912 and a s905w sitting around doing nothing.

I wish my tv had earc and could just pass true hd back though the hdmi Confused

Sorry for the long post. 
 We have HDR autoswitching improvements scheduled for the next update too. I suspect that other distributions may pick up these improvements. 
Feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. 

So there won't be any need to adjust any settings. All content will be played back correctly.

1. No -- there's been some comments about S905X/D having a limited video output pipeline but this isn't correct. You do need to have the right software to drive it however. S905W is limited to HDMI 1.4 and in turn, 4K30; so it's not recommended.
4. The Vero 4K Is based on S905x; and Vero 4K + is based on S905D which allows us to add support for Gigabit Ethernet in the form of an external PHY.

If you have any questions, feel free to send me a message or ask on OSMC forums.

Cheers

Sam
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(2018-09-24, 22:52)treboR2Robert Wrote: I found out yesterday that this and a few other titles are missing luminance data and OSMC has recently fixed this by changing fallback luminace from 5000 to 1000 nits.
HINT: you have obviously not been keeping up with LE threads....this since Sep 3rd...

click HERE

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(2018-09-25, 00:48)Sam.Nazarko Wrote: S905W is limited to HDMI 1.4 and in turn, 4K30; so it's not recommended.
4. The Vero 4K Is based on S905x; and Vero 4K + is based on S905D which allows us to add support for Gigabit Ethernet in the form of an external PHY.
I partially disagree, the S905W is fine for tight budget - 4K 24p only movies, BUT for reliable 4K high bitrate home network streaming you need Gigabit Ethernet or a direct connected HDD. It only has 100M Fast Ethernet, like all the other S905X devices.

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See PM for details on that chip. 

Sam
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(2018-09-25, 00:48)Sam.Nazarko Wrote: 1. No -- there's been some comments about S905X/D having a limited video output pipeline but this isn't correct. You do need to have the right software to drive it however. S905W is limited to HDMI 1.4 and in turn, 4K30; so it's not recommended.
So the latest versions of LE or CE does have proper, native 10bit output on S905X/S912 without the fake 10bit->8bit->10bit conversion dithering trick? Or you sayin' it still only works with OSMC?

What about those tests posted here recently, made with the 10bit pattern videos, proving that this still not so sure? Are they all wrong?
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(2018-09-25, 04:34)Mount81 Wrote:
(2018-09-25, 00:48)Sam.Nazarko Wrote: 1. No -- there's been some comments about S905X/D having a limited video output pipeline but this isn't correct. You do need to have the right software to drive it however. S905W is limited to HDMI 1.4 and in turn, 4K30; so it's not recommended.
So the latest versions of LE or CE does have proper, native 10bit output on S905X/S912 without the fake 10bit->8bit->10bit conversion dithering trick? Or you sayin' it still only works with OSMC?

What about those tests posted here recently, made with the 10bit pattern videos, proving that this still not so sure? Are they all wrong?   
 No idea about what LE is shipping. 
CE is shipping something similar to us; but they don't use an OSMC kernel, so not sure which fixes are picked in. 

My understanding was that the tests demonstrated that the 10-bit pipeline was working as expected on OSMC.
We have more improvements for HDR that will be released shortly on OSMC in the next monthly update and keep improving it. There's always some corner case (i.e. film) that is quirky. 

Cheers

Sam
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It's just strange, that all of the three tests (LE/CE/OSMC) presented different visual results. So if one of them is the correct and native 10bit picture, than the other two just isn't. At least that's what I think to be concluded logically.
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@wesk05 @Sam.Nazarko @wrxtasy  Thank you very much for the replies.

I am a little clearer now on a few things but this s905x / s905d 8bit to 10bit conversion is still bugging me. I have found a few qoutes from this forum and some others.
Quote:It has already been stated by Neil Armstrong from Baylibre - the guys doing the AMLogic Linux Mainline Kernel work that the AMLogic S912 has a proper 10bit pipeline. All other S9xx HDR capable hardware is doing some dithering.
Quote:There was/is definitely dithering and rounding code in the old AML Linux v3.14 Kernel for S905X devices.
Quote:S912 has a 10bit pipeline, s905x has only a 8bit to 10bit converter right before the hdmi controller
 
  1. Why would Baylibre say s905x and s905d are doing some dithering ?
  2. If the s912 has a "proper 10bit pipeline" why do you guys think a s912 running CoreELEC is doing dithering ?
  3. If this is actually a software problem (kernel) then is it that the old 3.14 linux kernel can't output true 10bit ?
  4. Is CoreELEC using the old 3.14 kernel ?
  5. Is OSMC using the new 4.9 kernel ?
  6. Is @wrxtasy build using the old 3.14 kernel ?
  7. Is the beta build of of LibreELEC 9 using the new 4.9 kernel ?
  8. Does using kodi 18 or kodi 17 have any affect ?
  9. CoreELEC uses kodi 18 right ?
  10. OSMC uses kodi 18 or 17 ?
  11. @wrxtasy build uses kodi 17 ?
I tried @wrxtasy build last night ( 8.2.5.1 ) on my s912 box and 4k HDR autoswitching seems to be working well and terminator 2 was nice and bright.

Are there any advantages to using a Vero 4k+ with OSMC rather than @wrxtasy build on my s912 ? £120 is money I havn't really got.

By the way my TV is a LG B7 and I have a Denon x3400 inbetween the TV and s912
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(2018-09-26, 00:15)treboR2Robert Wrote:I tried @wrxtasy build last night ( 8.2.5.1 ) on my s912 box and 4k HDR autoswitching seems to be working well and terminator 2 was nice and bright.

Are there any advantages to using a Vero 4k+ with OSMC rather than @wrxtasy build on my s912 ? £120 is money I havn't really got.

By the way my TV is a LG B7 and I have a Denon x3400 inbetween the TV and s912
Thx. for confirmation that Sam N's default (Vero 4K) nits patch is working as intended.

Open source software has a LOT of code shared around and that includes the Linux Kernel and a whole bunch of AMLogic Kodi specific patches. The Vero 4K uses @kszaq's original LibreELEC 3.14 Kernel with a bunch of patches added. @kszaq's Kernel was based on the official AMLogic LE 3.14 Kernel. They all build upon one another.

After all the patching and testing THIS (click) is the only HDMI color banding fix difference for S905X devices I could find between the Vero 4K (Nougat based) Kernel vs the LE 9.x AML (Oreo based) LE Kernel that is currently being used for development. All the S912 (GXM) code is the same.

I closely follow and include the audio and HDMI patches the Vero 4K uses in it's Kernel. So summing up, No you do not need to buy another AMLogic device if your current one is working fine, especially with dark 4K HDR Rips. You will see no difference.



The Mainline v4.9+ Linux Kernel is still undergoing development, adding further support for AMLogic devices, it will not surface till LE 10.x / Kodi v19 M at least for AMLogic - OSMC / LE.
There is also a Linux Open Source AMLogic video hardware decoder under development, so developers do not have to rely on closed source binary blobs.

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(2018-09-25, 05:34)Mount81 Wrote: It's just strange, that all of the three tests (LE/CE/OSMC) presented different visual results. So if one of them is the correct and native 10bit picture, than the other two just isn't. At least that's what I think to be concluded logically.
 As Sam has previously pointed out the CE kernel is similar to the OSMC kernel and both are based on the same 3.14 base from kszaq.

CoreELEC follows the OSMC kernel closely as they are doing it the best at the moment.
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Image

Would love a review of this from the Master Wrx when he has time $$
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You do realise it's not out until the end of the month right?
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4K streaming on Wi-Fi? Well, good luck with that. If you've the son of fortune and it would work stutter free somehow, guess only just for for online steaming apps. Not just due to the much lower overall bitrate, but I guess it doesn't have much of a local video playback support.
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Well guys what about Zappiti 4k HDR device ,
Anyone having that? Isn't it capable of 4K HDR auto Frame switching?
There's not enough info about it but people are happy with it over the Avsforum .
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