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4K HDR10 - State of Play thread - important media player limitations.
(2019-06-24, 00:32)treboR2Robert Wrote: @wrxtasy 

Thank you for the very detailed reply, I am slowly understanding more and more.

So confirmed by HDMI analysis

1.  Odroid N2 (s922) running CoreELEC outputs MaxFALL/MaxCLL metadata
2.  Vero 4k+ (s905d) running the OSMC "new stack" (whatever that is) outputs MaxFALL/MaxCLL metadata
No the Vero 4K's need a new Kernel first. And then testing has to happen, and likely further bug busting.

Quote:Kernel

1.  The 3.14 kernel does not support outputting metadata like MaxFALL/MaxCLL
Correct for AML devices running LE, OSMC or CE.

Quote:2.  The 4.9 kernel is a propriety kernel made by AMLOGIC just for their s905 and s922 devices. And they did not make it for the s912.
If you look in this AML Mbox table (click), devices that can run Android 8.0 and above are able to run the v4.9 AML Linux Kernel.
The S905D, is a S905X with DVB extras added.
Any other S9xx chipset would need a Kernel backport or wait for Mainline Linux to catchup up for full HDR metadata support.

Quote:3.  The 3.14 and 4.19/4.1x kernels are standard linux kernels ?
Yes in mainstream Linux land.
Vendors like AMLogic can add their own patches to any Kernel to support chipset specific functionality if they want, like HDR Metadata output.

Quote:4.  The 4.19/4.1x kernel "does" support outputting metadata like MaxFALL/MaxCLL
Such support is being added slowly to Linux Mainline, see HERE (click) - You will also need driver and Software support, like Linux HDR Kodi v19 M.

Quote:5.  The 4.9 kernel used by CoreELEC on the Odroid N2 has been modified by either CoreELEC or Hard Kernel to better support colour space autoswitching and other things.
AML did or paid for most of the custom v4.9 Kernel work, mainly for Android TV Oreo / Pie devices. HK and CE do bug busting and optimising for S922X AML Linux Kodi.

Quote:6.  The s912 "may" or "may not" be able to output HDR metadata like MaxFALL/MaxCLL when or if someone gets the 4.19/4.1x kernel working on it next year.
If all the starts align - Maybe.

Mainline unified Linux Kernels, drivers and Linux HDR Kodi v19 M support is where it will all hopefully come together for all ARM based - HDR - Rockchip, Allwinner, AMLogic & more , plus HDR capable Intel / AMD Linux devices. Uniting them all under a single HDR Linux Kodi v19 M release umbrella.

A lot of water has to go under the bridge before that happens yet.

In the meantime there will continue to be custom Linux Kodi Leia HDR releases - or you use auto switching - Android TV or FireTV 4K - HDR capable Kodi devices from this list: 2823690 (post)

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(2019-06-24, 05:34)wrxtasy Wrote: Mainline unified Linux Kernels, drivers and Linux HDR Kodi v19 M support is where it will all hopefully come together for all ARM based - HDR - Rockchip, Allwinner, AMLogic & more , plus HDR capable Intel / AMD Linux devices. Uniting them all under a single HDR Linux Kodi v19 M release umbrella.

This seems to be the roadmap for Raspberry Pi 4B HDR10 (and hopefully HLG) support too, on skim-reading coverage of its launch today.
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(2019-06-24, 11:31)noggin Wrote:
(2019-06-24, 05:34)wrxtasy Wrote: Mainline unified Linux Kernels, drivers and Linux HDR Kodi v19 M support is where it will all hopefully come together for all ARM based - HDR - Rockchip, Allwinner, AMLogic & more , plus HDR capable Intel / AMD Linux devices. Uniting them all under a single HDR Linux Kodi v19 M release umbrella.

This seems to be the roadmap for Raspberry Pi 4B HDR10 (and hopefully HLG) support too, on skim-reading coverage of its launch today.

Raspberry Pi 4 Tongue

Wasn't expecting that this morning.

This changes things significantly lol.

4k output, unthrottled gigabit ethernet, unthrottled usb 3.0.

Oh dear lol the N2 is not being ordered just yet then.

Come on Kodi get Kodi 19 out Laugh
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For those reading about RPi4b and potential 4K HDR - there is a lot of good info being given by Sam Nazarko over on the OSMC forums (click)

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(2019-06-25, 05:31)wrxtasy Wrote: For those reading about RPi4b and potential 4K HDR - there is a lot of good info being given by Sam Nazarko over on the OSMC forums (click)

I got too excited to early by the announcement of the RPi4b, looks like its useless "ATM" when it comes to HDR.
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@wrxtasy  Thanks again

I put the vero4k+ because of this post by @Sam.Nazarko showing the Vertex HDMI analysis.
(2019-06-20, 03:05)Sam.Nazarko Wrote: We have MaxCLL/MaxFALL working on the hardware on a new stack. We are making a number of changes over the Summer and plan is to roll it out with Hi10, 3D-FP, tone mapping and HDR10+.

Here is full metadata passthrough on 4K +: https://collab.osmc.tv/s/9vPnKXEqXp35E4f

Sam

The page you linked showing which devices got what android version is interesting. It says the s805x got android 8.. and 9, but the hardware isn't HDR capable, so it's irrelevant i guess lol.

A few more assumptions

1.  The 3.14 kernel is just a standard "old" linux kernel that has been modified by AMLOGIC and others so it can use AMCODEC for hardware decoding, HDR output etc etc..

2.  The 4.9 kernel is just a standard "old" linux kernel that has been modified by AMLOGIC and others so it can use a "newer version of AMCODEC" that supports outputting HDR metdata.

3.  The current version of the standard untouched mainline linux kernel (5.2-rc6) is still not capable of outputting HDR at all ?

4.  The "standard" linux kernel uses V4L2 or GBM to output video.

5.  The Raspberry Pi 4 will not be able to output HDR until it is implemented into the mainline kernel.


Questions

1.  Are V4L2 and GBM just codecs like AMCODEC but "official" ? And are they 2 separate codecs ?

2.  With MaxFALL/MaxCLL output from the N2 now is there any difference at all between a perfect remux played on the N2 vs watching the physical disk on a bluray player ?

3.  Should I just buy an N2 and shut up ?

Thanks
Rob
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(2019-06-26, 06:35)treboR2Robert Wrote: 2.  With MaxFALL/MaxCLL output from the N2 now is there any difference at all between a perfect remux played on the N2 vs watching the physical disk on a bluray player ?

3.  Should I just buy an N2 and shut up ?

@treboR2Robert
I don't know about the rest because it's too technical, but I can answer these questions.

2. It depends on whether the disk has Dolby Vision or not: the Odroid N2 will not output Dolby Vision metadata.
However, at the same time,
(2018-05-25, 07:50)wrxtasy Wrote:
  • There is no media player software on any Kodi DV capable media player, that can playback dual layer - 4K DolbyVision Bluray Rips and output DolbyVision metadata.
so that might not be a deal breaker for the N2.

3. I'd say yes (I've just bought it and it's exactly what I needed), but it depends on what you want to do with it.
Do you only need a player for your Blu-Ray rips, which can play 4K HDR files while correctly passing through MaxCLL/MaxFALL metadata and passing through the audio track, be it Dolby Atmos or DTS:X, to your AVR? Then at the moment there's nothing better than the N2.
Do you also need any streaming service like Netflix or Amazon Prime video? Then get something else (or both the N2 and something else).

If you need to try to play anything I could test it for you, but keep in mind that I don't have any 4k display at the moment so I will be seeing 4k content downscaled to 1080p...
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@DarkSphere00 
Thanks for the reply.

Yes I should of been more precise.
What I should of said was

Is there any difference "at all" in picture quality between watching a perfect HDR10 remux on the N2 compared to watching a HDR10 Blu-ray disc on a fully capable 4k HDR Blu-ray player ?

or

Are there any other parts of metadata or anything else that the N2 cannot pass through to the TV that an actual Blu-ray disc/player can ?

I do not need it to do anything but play Blu-ray rips.
For everything else like Netflix and Amazon etc.. my TV has built in apps.

Thanks again
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(2019-07-01, 01:49)treboR2Robert Wrote: Is there any difference "at all" in picture quality between watching a perfect HDR10 remux on the N2 compared to watching a HDR10 Blu-ray disc on a fully capable 4k HDR Blu-ray player ?

or

Are there any other parts of metadata or anything else that the N2 cannot pass through to the TV that an actual Blu-ray disc/player can ?

I strongly believe that at the moment there would be no difference at all between the disc and its rip played on the N2.

However, I am not 100% sure because there might always be other metadata, similar to MaxCLL/MaxFALL, that need to be passed through but are not.
I believe, basing myself on what I've read these days, that as of now there are none, but there is always the possibility that new metadata will be introduced in the future and that it'll give problems.

I suggest you wait for an answer by someone who knows in detail about all the technical stuff: I'm answering now because nobody was and a partial answer is better than none.

I however know for sure that, regardless of that, at the moment the Odroid N2 is the best player there is for Blu-Ray rips, so if you need something now that should be your choice in any case.

If it's not something you need though, I'd say just wait so that you'll get your answer, the developer team will release the stable version of OpenELEC and if anything new comes out you'll know.
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(2019-07-01, 01:49)treboR2Robert Wrote: @DarkSphere00 
Thanks for the reply.

Yes I should of been more precise.
What I should of said was

Is there any difference "at all" in picture quality between watching a perfect HDR10 remux on the N2 compared to watching a HDR10 Blu-ray disc on a fully capable 4k HDR Blu-ray player ?

Of course there will be.
I doubt anything will rival the ultimate picture quality, or video output options you would get from a (discontinued) Oppo 203 or 205 4K HDR DV Bluray Player.
But the question is how much do you want to pay ?

Quote:Are there any other parts of metadata or anything else that the N2 cannot pass through to the TV that an actual Blu-ray disc/player can ?

Likely not, but more user feedback would be handy. I'm 100% confident in what @wesk05 has already posted.

Quote:I do not need it to do anything but play Blu-ray rips.

You might want to look at this home network streaming 4K HDR10 DV solution then, that also will give you proper BD Menus:

AVS Forums - THE ULTIMATE OPPO MEDIA DEVICE

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If my goal was to play back 10-bit 4K HDR video files with lossless HD audio passthrough including Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, would I be better off with Odroid N2 or Vero 4K+? Also looking at using a Logitech Harmony remote to control either device (IR). I understand that MaxCLL/FALL metadata is supported on Odroid but not Vero (yet). Is this a crucial feature?

My Kodi Leia Windows setup works well with madvr and mpc external player for HDR content but would prefer the native Kodi GUI and internal player via CoreElec.
Setup | Kodi Leia 18.7 | Aeon MQ8 2.9.0 | madVR | RTX 2080 Ti | i9 9900K | LG C7 OLED
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(2019-07-01, 04:45)HomeTheatreGuru Wrote: If my goal was to play back 10-bit 4K HDR video files with lossless HD audio passthrough including Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, would I be better off with Odroid N2 or Vero 4K+? Also looking at using a Logitech Harmony remote to control either device (IR). I understand that MaxCLL/FALL metadata is supported on Odroid but not Vero (yet). Is this a crucial feature?

Not all 4K HDR10 display are created equal when it comes to brightness level available from each pixel. (nits)

If you want to watch HDR10 content and see the picture details in both the highlights and shadows properly then MaxCLL/FALL becomes important.

Quote:The MaxCLL and MaxFALL metadata included in the HDR10 media profile allows consumer displays to adjust the entire video stream’s brightness to match their own display limits.

Quote:
Tone Mapping - is a technique used in image processing to map one set of colors to another to approximate the appearance of high-dynamic-range images on a display that has a more limited dynamic range. An example would be showing 4000nit content on an 800nit display

As another example... from HERE

Quote:Panasonic adjusts the tone mapping for static metadata, (based) on the MaxCLL data but also through its own dynamic tone mapping that tries to produce an image which retains image brightness and preserves specular highlights without clipping the detail or dimming the image overall.

It becomes really important for Auto Tone Mapping projectors (click), that do not output exceptionally bright pictures to begin.

There are now modern 4K HDR OLED's (eg. Sony, LG, Panasonic & others) that have their own, great Dynamic Tone Mapping engines as to map 4000nits HDR content on to a ~ 800nit display.

You need correct MaxCLL/FALL Infoframe data to begin with for that to work properly.

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Thanks @wrxtasy 

Looks like the Odroid N2 is my best bet, all things considered? Any limitations that I should be aware of? And would it be wise to spend a bit more to go with 4GB RAM over 2GB?
Setup | Kodi Leia 18.7 | Aeon MQ8 2.9.0 | madVR | RTX 2080 Ti | i9 9900K | LG C7 OLED
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2GB RAM is plenty for a lightweight Linux media player OS's like CoreELEC.
4GB would come in handy for Linux Desktop OS's, compiling and running servers like Plex.

N2's Petitboot (click) is getting some love, USB3 sticks / SSD can be used for booting as well.

There may be some issue with N2's 4:2:2 Chroma output and Yamaha AVR's (in it's Advanced settings - Mode 1). We saw the same issue with the previous S9xx v3.14 Kernel combo, that the Vero guys fixed.
4K HDR Blurays are 4:2:0 Chroma anyway and 24p 4K HDR 4:2:0 will be fine.

Other issues see the N2 CE thread (click)

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(2019-07-01, 04:19)wrxtasy Wrote: [quote="treboR2Robert" pid='2864840' dateline='1561938588']
Of course there will be.
I doubt anything will rival the ultimate picture quality, or video output options you would get from a (discontinued) Oppo 203 or 205 4K HDR DV Bluray Player.
But the question is how much do you want to pay ?

But in that case, the "ultimate picture quality" is achieved thanks to additional software implementation by OPPO or whatever hardware manufacturer.
I know that if I buy the Panasonic BP-UB9000 the picture quality will be stunning because of their HCX Processor and their HDR Optimizer, but that's because of additional implementations by Panasonic, not because of a flaw in the N2 am I wrong?

If I disabled every additional image processing option in the BD player, then I would get the same picture as the N2, or am I missing something?
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